The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, it’s not what I am saying.

I am saying through Christ we can overcome sin, which I already provided the scriptures. The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

Someone in Christ should not be living in sin. If we have sin we can’t seem to forsake, we should be spending more time in prayer and ask Jesus to overcome. Through Him all things are possible including forsaking our sins Pro 28:13 if we slip and fall, we have an Advocate with Jesus Christ who is so faithful to forgive us when we sin, but when Jesus healed He said go and sin no more if it weren’t possible He would not ask. We are told it’s possible Rev 14:12 if we abide in Christ John 15:5-10. God always gives us a way to escape through Him 1 Cor 10:13

But nobody is arguing a contrary point. I have never heard a saved person say, "We should keep on living in sin", "We don't need to forsake our sins", or "I don't want to go and sin no more".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

But nobody is arguing a contrary point. I have never heard a saved person say, "We should keep on living in sin", "We don't need to forsake our sins", or "I don't want to go and sin no more".

Go back and re-read the posts. The disagreement was if we can overcome sin or not. Sinning a little less or a little sin, is not the same.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Go back and re-read the posts. The disagreement was if we can overcome sin or not.

Maybe the disagreement is over the extent to which we can overcome sin, because even my staunchest SDA friends admit that they sometimes stumble and fall.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Maybe the disagreement is over the extent to which we can overcome sin, because even my staunchest SDA friends admit that they sometimes stumble and fall.

But thats not the disagreement. I believe Christ will finish His work and we can overcome if we abide in Him John 15:5-10 1 John 2:6 I believe this happens before He comes back Rev 22:11 if we stumble along the way, we have such a long-suffering Savior 1 John 1:9, but He is also a Savior of justice. He will do everything to help us overcome, but it requires our cooperation

Anyway, hope you all have a blessed day!

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

But thats not the disagreement. I believe Christ will finish His work and we can overcome if we abide in Him John 15:5-10 1 John 2:6 I believe this happens before He comes back Rev 22:11 if we stumble along the way, we have such a long-suffering Savior 1 John 1:9, but He is also a Savior of justice. He will do everything to help us overcome, but it requires our cooperation

Anyway, hope you all have a blessed day!

We all stumble along the way. And yes, He is longsuffering. I think everyone can agree with these things.

But what seems unrealistic to me is the idea that before our physical deaths we can achieve such a state of "cooperation with God" that it resuts in us never committing any more sins after that point.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We all stumble along the way. And yes, He is longsuffering. I think everyone can agree with these things.

But what seems unrealistic to me is the idea that before our physical deaths we can achieve such a state of "cooperation with God" that it resuts in us never committing any more sins after that point.

Seems to be a little different than what I understood you to say previously.

But nobody is arguing a contrary point. I have never heard a saved person say, "We should keep on living in sin", "We don't need to forsake our sins", or "I don't want to go and sin no more".

Anyway I disagree I believe all things are possible through Christ which includes overcoming sin. I already provided the reference so guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[The Liturgist]

Which is no where close to this

Forgive me if I misunderstood what you said, but it appeared to challenge the view as to the essential requirement that we forgive our neighbors.

So to clarify, you agree that forgiving our neighbors for their trespasses against us is required of us by God as a precondition of us being forgiven by Him?

 

[The Liturgist]

But thats not the disagreement. I believe Christ will finish His work and we can overcome if we abide in Him John 15:5-10 1 John 2:6 I believe this happens before He comes back Rev 22:11 if we stumble along the way, we have such a long-suffering Savior 1 John 1:9, but He is also a Savior of justice. He will do everything to help us overcome, but it requires our cooperation

The Orthodox believe in the portion of the above which I have placed in bold text.

The portion I placed in Italics, we believe that some people can overcome sin in this life, but most can’t, realistically, which is why we are dependent on the mercy of Jesus Christ to forgive us for our sins.

Additionally the Orthodox reject the doctrines of soul sleep and of annhilationism, and believe that those of us who will be saved will continue to be perfected in Heaven, and potentially eternally in the life of the World to Come, since God is infinitely perfect and we are finite beings, and the idea of infinite progress was articulated in a very comforting way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Seems to be a little different than what I understood you to say previously.

Anyway I disagree I believe all things are possible through Christ which includes overcoming sin. I already provided the reference so guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Orthodox believe in the portion of the above which I have placed in bold text.

The portion I placed in Italics, we believe that some people can overcome sin in this life, but most can’t, realistically, which is why we are dependent on the mercy of Jesus Christ to forgive us for our sins.

Additionally the Orthodox reject the doctrines of soul sleep and of annhilationism, and believe that those of us who will be saved will continue to be perfected in Heaven, and potentially eternally in the life of the World to Come, since God is infinitely perfect and we are finite beings, and the idea of infinite progress was articulated in a very comforting way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

I believe what the Bible says. You keep referring to people. I always refer to God’s Word.

Let’s get back on topic. If you want to discuss SDA I’m sure there’s a ton of threads already.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

You’re welcome.

I appreciate the kind discussion.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe what the Bible says. You keep referring to people. I always refer to God’s Word.

That’s not a fair statement, since the Orthodox also believe in what the Bible says, and indeed we read the entire Bible every year in the course of our church services, which are themselves composed primarily of Scripture. 93% of our primary Sunday service, the Divine Liturgy, consists of quotations from Scripture, and the remaining 7% mainly consists of poetic hymns and devotional prayers.

I was not seeking to criticize the SDA with my post but was rather trying to show you where we agree on doctrine. I don’t understand why you would regard my statement as either a reference to an extra-Biblical source or as a criticism of the SDA, since my goal was only to explain where our churches agree and disagree on this issue, since we do share a believe that humans cooperate with God in their salvation, which separates our respective churches from those which are monergistic, such as Calvinists.

 

[The Liturgist]

I always refer to God’s Word.

According to John 1:1, the Word is Jesus Christ. I have not seen any compelling evidence to refute my friend @Xeno.of.athens assertion that the phrase “the Word of God” is exclusively Christological in meaning, since all Scripture that refers to the Word appears to be Christological, even those texts which some say are in reference to the Scriptures.

Additionally, referring to the Bible as the Word is problematic since it could lead someone to misread John 1:1-18 and think it was about Scripture and not about the person of Jesus Christ, which I have in fact seen, even on ChristianForums, despite the fact that the CF Statement of Faith cites John 1:1 in support of the Nicene Creed’s declaration of the deity of Christ.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The Orthodox believe ... that some people can overcome sin in this life, but most can’t, realistically, which is why we are dependent on the mercy of Jesus Christ to forgive us for our sins.

Wow, I didn't know that Orthodox believe some people can stop sinning altogether. Do these people's little sins not count against them, or are they able to stop sinning in every respect?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

According to John 1:1, the Word is Jesus Christ. I have not seen any compelling evidence to refute my friend

Again, not an argument I ever made that Jesus is not the Word. I’m not sure if you‘re reading my posts or just don’t understand them, but you keep making claims that I have never made.

“the Word of God” is exclusively Christological in meaning.

Yes, but you refer to what the “orthodox church say about this or that”. My preference is what does the Word of God say and I do not believe they are mutually exclusive , God’s Word is to be the light to our path Psa 119:105.

I believe this is a fundamental disagreement on our view of scripture but it’s not the topic of this thread. So lets get back to God’s covenant or if you want to start a new thread on these different topics.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

The New Covenant will not be like the Old Covenant as scripture indicates. The New Covenant is more than keeping the 10 Commandments because it is now based on Love through His Holy Spirit.

Maria, Show me scripture that defines what the new covenant is, I assure you it is the 10 commandments but kept in our hearts and minds always just as described in Jeremiah and Hebrews, anything else is adding to scripture, but yes the 10 commandments all have to do with love, first of GOD with all out might them to love our fellow man as ourselves, the commandments rest on this entirely.

Blessings.

 

[The Liturgist]

My preference is what does the Word of God say and I do not believe they are mutually exclusive ,

That is also our preference. But Scripture can be interpreted differently. My point was merely to show you where the SDA beliefs you expressly stated agreed with the Orthodox, for reasons of fellowship.

I also don’t understand what you are referring to as mutually exclusive.

But I do have some questions, based on our conversation, which are relevant to the thread:

1. Do you believe that someone who breaks the ten commandments can be forgiven and saved?
2. Do you believe that breaking the ten commandments precludes salvation even if one admits ones fault and is penitent?
3. Do you believe that Christians are required to forgive their neighbor as a prerequisite for salvation (as is implied by Matthew 6:1-15).
4. What about the Summary of the Law provided by Christ our True God?
5. How do you understand the statements of the Pauline epistles with regards to the salvation of sinners?

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe this is a fundamental disagreement on our view of scripture but it’s not the topic of this thread. So lets get back to God’s covenant or if you want to start a new thread on these different topics.

The topic of this thread is the decalogue and its relation (or lack thereof) with the New Covenant. Scripture makes it clear that the decalogue is not the New Covenant but is rather part of the Old Covenant with Israel. Israel in the context of the New Covenant refers to the Church.

I would also say that if we have any disagreement, it is germane to this thread, since the SDA interprets the decalogue very differently from the Orthodox, and I disagree with your assertion that the SDA doctrine is the only doctrine which is plainly taught in Scripture, and conversely you appear to disagree with my assertion that the shareed Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and Roman Catholic doctrine on this issue, which was also taught by the early church, is Scriptural.

But it is relevant to the thread, in that if we are to discuss the relationship between the Decalogue and the New Covenant, the Orthodox have an opinion on this and so do the Adventists, and it is not as though we are discussing some esoteric prophecy of Miller, White or various Orthodox monastics, which would be genuinely off-topic, but rather the heart of the matter is what the New Covenant is, and it is apparent that our two churches do not entirely agree on this subject, although I did try to show you that we do not entirely disagree, and this was misinterpreted as a criticism.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Yes, the law was always meant to be written in our minds and on our hearts. But the Fall separated us from God, and His voice became dimmer, more distant, with man becoming his own "god", so to speak, listening to his own voice, determining morality for himself, often based on selfishness, covetousness, with disastrous results. Augustine put it this way
"God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed ro read in his heart."

what happened when the Son of GOD, Jesus gave the spirit on the cross? one important thing is as written " the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;


Matthew 27:50-51
"50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split."


Mark 15:37-38
"37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. 38 Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom."

The veil in the temple separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place (the Holy of Holies), where God's presence dwelt. Only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies once a year, on the Day of Atonement, to offer the blood of a sacrifice for the sins of the people.

When Jesus died, the tearing of the veil from top to bottom symbolized the removal of the barrier between God and humanity. It indicated that through Jesus' death, the way to God was opened for all people, not just the high priest. Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for anyone to have direct access to God, without the need for a priset as mediator but through Jesus, we now have access always. This act signifies the end of the old covenant system of sacrifices and rituals and the beginning of a new covenant through Jesus' atoning work on the cross.

The new covenant, "in the fullness of time", is about man being reconciled with God, personally appropriated and realized and experienced as we turn to Him in faith which is to embrace and acknowledge Him as our God again. This is the right and just order of things. "I will be their God and they will be my people". That is to be connected to the Vine where His life-giving righteousness/justice may now begin to flow. This is a new righteousness, apart from the law but one that the law and the prophets nonetheless testify to (Rom 3:21), because the law is based on and reflects this righteousnsess even though it cannot produce it in us. Only God can do that, only God can "justify the ungodly". The law is merely the Letter at the end of the day, not the true motivating factor, itself, not the Spirit, not grace. So this is a righteousness based on faith and not the law (Phil 3:9) and the primary name of this righteousness is love, as only love can authentically fulfill the law (Rom 13:10). With love we can obey the law without even necessarily hearing it (Rom 2:13). That love is what Jesus shows us, calls us to, and makes possible for us,

with love yes you can be unknowingly obeying the lase six commandments that are related to loving one another BUT what about the first four commandments about loving GOD, this is where Paul's epistles are lacking at times.

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

The old covenant was not revoked, just made obsolete by a new and better covenant, one that can actually accomplish what the old could not.

the new covenant is the same ad the Old covenant ( jer 31:31-33) but put in the hearts and minds and flesh of those who believe in God's and Jesus words and obey him by doing GOD's will. if you think something else please provide the verses to make your point.

 

[The Liturgist]

Maria, Show me scripture that defines what the new covenant is, I assure you it is the 10 commandments but kept in our hearts and minds always just as described in Jeremiah and Hebrews, anything else is adding to scripture, but yes the 10 commandments all have to do with love, first of GOD with all out might them to love our fellow man as ourselves, the commandments rest on this entirely.

Blessings.

Matthew 26:28, John 3:16, John 6 (entire), 1 Corinthians (entire)