The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[trophy33]

That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is an essential part of the Gospel message - all references to the Scriptures we encounter in the New Testament refer to it.

And furthermore, at the ending of the Gospel according to St. Luke, Christ our True God revealed to the Apostles that the Old Testament, all the books of the law and prophet, were about Him.

If we read the Old Testament as Christological prophecy, it makes sense, and ceases to be “Dim and blurry.” The dimness and bluriness results when people attempt to use the Old Testament to interpret the New, rather than vice-versa, or attempt to read the Old Testament as a literal historical text rather than as Christological prophecy. Both cases do not work, because they ignore the actual function of the Old Testament as revealed to the Holy Apostles by God Himself in the Gospel according to St. Luke the Evangelist.

I do not agree that the Old Testament is an essential part of the Gospel message, but I agree that the Old Testaments gets cleared or understood through Christ and through Christianity.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

According to Scripture, there is just one Gospel Gal 1:8 which this Gospel was also preached in the OT Gal 3:8 and this Gospel is an everlasting Gospel Rev 14:6

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Strawman, I made no such argument.

You said we could not overcome sin- did you not? Who wants us to believe this 1 John 3:8, not Christ. He said He came to save us from our sins

Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [a]Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Clearly, people can improve and sin less and overcome the sinful passions, because we have the example of Orthodox saints who did exactly that. But they never ceased to repent, for example, Abba Sisoes.

We also have the example of our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, who did not commit any voluntary sin during her life, but still had to be saved by her Son from death, which results from original sin, which in Orthodoxy we call ancestral sin.

Sin in the West is misunderstood as forensic - it is regarded as being like religious crime, when in reality sin is a disease, a hereditary disease, inherited from Adam, which Christ, our savior, provided us a salve to cure us from it, in the form of the grace of Holy Baptism, which washes away sin, and the Eucharist, which remits sin, and other means of grace clearly established in the New Testament.

If we understand sin as a disease, we can understand why it is that people continue to return to the same sins over and over despite their desire not to. But God being merciful wants to deliver us from the harm of sin, and provides us with the grace of the Holy Spirit in order to do so.

However, if we adopt a Pelagian attitude, or take the view that with the grace of the Holy Spirit we should expect to be able to perfectly adhere to, for instance, the Decalogue, which was the view of some early Anglicans, and is expressed in the very unpleasant Anglican liturgy known as the Commination, in which those who violate the Decalogue are cursed (such a service was unprecedented and exists nowhere else in Christendom, and most modern day Anglicans I know of reject the idea of the service utterly), we create a situation wherein we set ourselves up for the danger of pride, even fi we are successful in keeping the commandments, or for despair, if we are unsuccessful. Pride and despair are extremely harmful for Christian salvation.

According to the Scripture all has sinned Rom 3:23 which would include Christ’s earthy mom, Mary. No Scripture says she never sinned, she needed a Savior, just like we all do Luke 1:46-47. We can overcome sin through Christ Pro 28:13 Mat 19:26 its a promise of the Scripture Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

Anyway, this thread is not about Mary, but the New Covenant and the better promise on how we can keep God’s covenant though our faith and love 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 and His power Heb 8:10 John 14:15-18

 

[The Liturgist]

You said we could not overcome sin- did you not?

No, I think you misunderstood my point. It is the case that very few people in this life will completely stop sinning, since death still looms over us and mortality is both symptomatic and causal with regards to the disease of sin. Those who do conquer the sinful passions exist, mainly in monasteries, but even monks have a terrible struggle against pride, since frequently those who overcome gluttony, lust and other sinful passions will then be ensnared by pride, since overcoming sinful passions can come with a dangerous sense of accomplishment, since the temptation is to credit oneself with the change rather than the Holy Spirit.

Additionally, my other point is that Christ our True God recognizes that we are unlikely to stop sinning in this lifetime, which is why he places so much stress on faith in Him and on the importance of forgiveness. If we forgive our neighbor, God will forgive us; if we confess Christ before men, He will confess us before the Father.

At the day of judgement, we are also aided by the fact that Christ, our advocate, is also our judge, Christ Pantocrator, for it is He, the divine Logos, the Son of Man, who will sit in judgement over all mankind according to the Scriptures.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Additionally, my other point is that Christ our True God recognizes that we are unlikely to stop sinning in this lifetime

This is what the Scripture states

Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [a]Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”. We are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30

, which is why he places so much stress on faith in Him and on the importance of forgiveness.

This is what the Scripture states

Pro 28:He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

If we forgive our neighbor, God will forgive us; if we confess Christ before men, He will confess us before the Father.

We are to confess our faults to men James 5:16 to help lift each other up. Only God can forgive sins through His blood and Sacrifice, not anyone else 1 John 1:9

Of course there is a struggle with the flesh, but we are told we can gain victory through Christ if we abide in Him John 15:5-10 1 John 2:6

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works (Exo 32:16) until the end, to him I will give power over the nations
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat downwith My Father on His throne.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

 

[The Liturgist]

According to the Scripture all has sinned Rom 3:23 which would include Christ’s earthy mom, Mary.

No, all have sinned and (inclusive and) fallen short of the glory of God, but this is a result of the inheritance from Adam; the possibility exists for someone in theory to not commit voluntary sin, and that was the case with Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, which is why she was selected by God to be His human mother. Thus, St. Mary, the Mother of God, committed no voluntary sins, but still suffered from the inheritance of ancestral sin, from which she was saved by her son, and became one of two people known for certain to have been taken up bodily into Heaven, along with St. Elijah the Prophet (it is also probable that St. Enoch and St. Moses were taken up bodily, based on scriptural accounts of the former in the Ethiopic canon and in the case of the latter his appearance at the transfiguration).

In addition, we are commanded to be perfect even as the Father is perfect. Thus, in our ongoing struggle to overcome sin, we become more godlike and more glorified. As St. Athanasius* eloquently put it, God became man so that man could become god. By which he did not mean we become members of the Holy Trinity, but rather we become by grace what Christ is by nature - sinless, resurrected, and living eternally.

*St. Athanasius was the defender of the Trinity against Arianism and the man who first discerned the the 27 book New Testament Canon (every church father before St. Athanasius either included books that all churches now agree were not inspired, or omitted books that all churches agree were inspired, important books like 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, as becomes clear if one looks at any complete fourth century Bible such as the Syriac Peshitta or the Codex Sinaiticus).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, all have sinned and (inclusive and) fallen short of the glory of God, but this is a result of the inheritance from Adam; the possibility exists for someone in theory to not commit voluntary sin, and that was the case with Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, which is why she was selected by God to be His human mother. Thus, St. Mary, the Mother of God, committed no voluntary sins, but still suffered from the inheritance of ancestral sin, from which she was saved by her son, and became one of two people known for certain to have been taken up bodily into Heaven, along with St. Elijah the Prophet (it is also probable that St. Enoch and St. Moses were taken up bodily, based on scriptural accounts of the former in the Ethiopic canon and in the case of the latter his appearance at the transfiguration).

In addition, we are commanded to be perfect even as the Father is perfect. Thus, in our ongoing struggle to overcome sin, we become more godlike and more glorified. As St. Athanasius* eloquently put it, God became man so that man could become god. By which he did not mean we become members of the Holy Trinity, but rather we become by grace what Christ is by nature - sinless, resurrected, and living eternally.

*St. Athanasius was the defender of the Trinity against Arianism and the man who first discerned the the 27 book New Testament Canon (every church father before St. Athanasius either included books that all churches now agree were not inspired, or omitted books that all churches agree were inspired, important books like 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, as becomes clear if one looks at any complete fourth century Bible such as the Syriac Peshitta or the Codex Sinaiticus).

Sorry I don’t find it fruitful to argue traditions over what God’s Word says, so I will leave it as agree to disagree.

Be well.

 

[The Liturgist]

We are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30

What you are not understanding is the forgiveness of Christ for our sins. We are not supposed to continue in the diseased state of sin, and the grace of the Holy Spirit is provided to help us overcome sin, and we are required to repent of sin, but that being said, Christ knows we will mostly be unsuccessful, but is prepared to forgive us anyway, as we forgive our neighbor.

This is the good news of the New Testament, that God is prepared to forgive us our sins and glorify us by granting us life everlasting.

One thing I appreciate about Lutherans is the useful Law and Gospel dichotomy and the Pauline rejection of legalism with regards to hamartiology. While it is the case that Lutheran hamartiology, like most Western hamartiologies, tends to view sin forensically rather than medically, it nonetheless comes closer than any other to that of the Eastern churches, who stress the literal salve of the salvation that Christ provides us with (salvation is derived from the word salve, as in medicine).

It is truly unfortunate that the SDA rejects so much of what Martin Luther taught while still making use of his terminology, despite having a completely different understanding of what these mean compared to Lutherans and other traditional Protestants.

Now, granted, I disagree with much of what Luther taught, as an Eastern Orthodox Christian - I am a synergist, not a monergist, and I believe Luther was in serious error concerning intercessory prayer, relics, and also regarding liturgical structure, since he removed portions of the liturgy which were present in all ancient churches, but on the other hand, Luther was correct in his continued veneration of the Theotokos, of the Holy Icons, in teaching the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, in teaching the salvation of the faithful through grace, and also did a splendid job reintroducing Western Europe to the Pauline epistles, which had been de-emphasized by the legalistic Roman Catholic church of the High Medieval and Renaissance era due to the fundamentally flawed Scholastic theology (the fact that Roman Catholics draw a line between Patristic and Scholastic theology ought to serve as a red flag; Orthodox Christianity never abandoned Patristic theology and also never attempted to compile a systematic theology in the manner of the Summa Theologica or Calvin’s Institutes or the Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth.

But that being said, any of those three systematic theologies would still represent an improvement on the theological position espoused by the Restorationist denominations of Sabbatarian orientation, which suffers from a legalism similiar to that of Roman Catholicism during the Renaissance era (which was later mitigated with the Counter Reformation under Pope Pius V; had it not been for Luther, the Catholic church might have continued selling indulgences for centuries more, but his actions resulted in a stop to that practice and other practices of legalism and began the movement of the Roman Catholic Church in a direction back towards the Eastern churches it had previously spurned).

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry I don’t find it fruitful to argue traditions over what God’s Word says, so I will leave it as agree to disagree.

Be well.

So you reject 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Galatians 1:8-9 and 1 Corinthians 11:2? Since Sacred Tradition is a New Testament doctrine, and this fact is recognized by the traditional Protestant churches.

But perhaps 2 Thessalonians, 1 Galatians and 1 Corinthians are not in your scriptural canon, or are de-emphasized in favor of other books?

What books of the Bible are the most important to you?

 

[The Liturgist]

are to confess our faults to men to help lift each other up. Only God can forgive sins, not man 1 John 1:9

Jesus Christ, in the Gospels, expressly tells us that we must forgive others. This does not contradict with the idea that only God can forgive sins - the command is for us to forgive others for whatever harm they have caused us.

The Lord’s Prayer says “Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us.”

Are you seriously saying we should not forgive our neighbor?

Matthew 6:14-15
Ephesians 4:32
Colossians 3:13

 

[The Liturgist]

The imperative of forgive our neighbor is so central to the Christian religion, it is embedded in the very sermon where Christ reveals the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew chapter 6:

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This text makes it clear that forgiving others is actually a prerequisite for God to forgive us (which we need, because we have sinned).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus Christ, in the Gospels, expressly tells us that we must forgive others.

Yes, never made an argument against this. If our neighbor wrongs us and asks for forgivness, we should forgive them

This does not contradict with the idea that only God can forgive sins

Agreed

The Lord’s Prayer says “Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us.”

Are you seriously saying we should not forgive our neighbor?

Matthew 6:14-15
Ephesians 4:32
Colossians 3:13

You seem to be making things up that was never said by I, not once.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What you are not understanding is the forgiveness of Christ for our sins. We are not supposed to continue in the diseased state of sin, and the grace of the Holy Spirit is provided to help us overcome sin, and we are required to repent of sin, but that being said, Christ knows we will mostly be unsuccessful, but is prepared to forgive us anyway, as we forgive our neighbor.

This is the good news of the New Testament, that God is prepared to forgive us our sins and glorify us by granting us life everlasting.

One thing I appreciate about Lutherans is the useful Law and Gospel dichotomy and the Pauline rejection of legalism with regards to hamartiology. While it is the case that Lutheran hamartiology, like most Western hamartiologies, tends to view sin forensically rather than medically, it nonetheless comes closer than any other to that of the Eastern churches, who stress the literal salve of the salvation that Christ provides us with (salvation is derived from the word salve, as in medicine).

It is truly unfortunate that the SDA rejects so much of what Martin Luther taught while still making use of his terminology, despite having a completely different understanding of what these mean compared to Lutherans and other traditional Protestants.

Now, granted, I disagree with much of what Luther taught, as an Eastern Orthodox Christian - I am a synergist, not a monergist, and I believe Luther was in serious error concerning intercessory prayer, relics, and also regarding liturgical structure, since he removed portions of the liturgy which were present in all ancient churches, but on the other hand, Luther was correct in his continued veneration of the Theotokos, of the Holy Icons, in teaching the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, in teaching the salvation of the faithful through grace, and also did a splendid job reintroducing Western Europe to the Pauline epistles, which had been de-emphasized by the legalistic Roman Catholic church of the High Medieval and Renaissance era due to the fundamentally flawed Scholastic theology (the fact that Roman Catholics draw a line between Patristic and Scholastic theology ought to serve as a red flag; Orthodox Christianity never abandoned Patristic theology and also never attempted to compile a systematic theology in the manner of the Summa Theologica or Calvin’s Institutes or the Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth.

But that being said, any of those three systematic theologies would still represent an improvement on the theological position espoused by the Restorationist denominations of Sabbatarian orientation, which suffers from a legalism similiar to that of Roman Catholicism during the Renaissance era (which was later mitigated with the Counter Reformation under Pope Pius V; had it not been for Luther, the Catholic church might have continued selling indulgences for centuries more, but his actions resulted in a stop to that practice and other practices of legalism and began the movement of the Roman Catholic Church in a direction back towards the Eastern churches it had previously spurned).

I’m not referring to forgiveness of sins which I understand, I am referring to forsaking our sins Pro 28:13 which is what Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21

Please stop telling me what I believe or not and if one really wants to know what SDA’s believe best to go directly to the source

This is what we believe if you want to know. What do Seventh-day Adventists Believe?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The Bible does present the Ten Commandments as the covenant itself. In Exodus 34:28, it is written:

"So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."​

​

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV)​

This clearly states that the Ten Commandments are the covenant. When we look at Jeremiah 31:31-33, we see God speaking of a new covenant, but notice what He says:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.​

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."​

This passage does not say the law itself would change. Instead, it tells us that instead of being written on stone, it would be written in our hearts and minds. That means the law remains the same, but its place changes, from external tablets to internal conviction. This is why we see in the Gospels of John, Matthew, Luke and Mark, Jesus teaching the commandments and magnifying them.

Now, let's connect this with the Ark of the Covenant. In Deuteronomy 10:1-5, God commanded Moses to place the two tablets of the Ten Commandments inside the Ark:

​

"At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Hew for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make yourself an ark of wood... Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, just as the Lord commanded me.’"​

This shows the special place of the Ten Commandments, inside the Ark, symbolizing their central role in the covenant. But what about the rest of the law? In Deuteronomy 31:24-26, Moses wrote the book of the law and placed it beside the Ark:

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: ‘Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.’”​

This distinction is important. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the Ark, showing their eternal, unchanging nature as the foundation of the covenant. The rest of the law was placed beside the Ark, acting as a witness.

Now, when Jeremiah speaks of the law being written in our hearts, he is speaking of the same law—the Ten Commandments. The "new" part of the covenant is not that the law changes but that God Himself ensures it is within us, guiding us from within rather than being an external set of rules. This aligns perfectly with how Jesus upheld and fulfilled the law, always pointing back to love for God and neighbor as the foundation of obedience (Matthew 22:36-40).

So, the New Covenant is not about replacing the Ten Commandments but about making them part of who we are, just as they were placed inside the Ark.

Blessings

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more. (Je 31:33–34)​

The new covenant has many elements...

“I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jer. 31:33): God’s plan for making us right with Him was to transform us from the inside by coming to live in our hearts. His coming to live in us would ingrain His laws into us and make our hearts right with Him.

“I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (Jer. 31:33): God living in us would make us His children and would give us His divine nature. With new hearts, we would be the holy and righteous people God always wanted us to be, and we would be right with Him.

“No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord” (Jer. 31:34): His intent was that from inside our hearts He would personally reveal Himself and His will to us. By Spirit-to-spirit communications, He would lead us, guide us into all truth, and teach us everything He wanted us to know.

“For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jer. 31:34): God knew that to accomplish these things, He would have to deal with the sins that separated us from Him. So He prepared a human body for His Son, sacrificed Him on a cross for our sins, and conquered death on our behalf by raising Him from the dead.

 

[The Liturgist]

Please stop telling me what I believe or not and if one really wants to know what SDA’s believe best to go directly to the source

Forgive me, it has at no point been my intention to tell you what you believe. Obviously only you can know what you believe.

Rather my critique has been of SDA doctrine.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, never made an argument against this. If our neighbor wrongs us and asks for forgivness, we should forgive them

Agreed

You seem to be making things up that was never said by I, not once.

No, I was reacting to this:

If we forgive our neighbor, God will forgive us; if we confess Christ before men, He will confess us before the Father.

We are to confess our faults to men James 5:16 to help lift each other up. Only God can forgive sins through His blood and Sacrifice, not anyone else 1 John 1:9

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Forgive me,

Of course

it has at no point been my intention to tell you what you believe.

Thats good

Obviously only you can know what you believe.

True

Rather my critique has been of SDA doctrine.

Your view of SDA doctrine which is not necessarily the same as the actual doctrine. Denominations are separated by doctrine, so I wouldn’t expect you to believe what we believe and thats OK

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I’m not referring to forgiveness of sins which I understand, I am referring to forsaking our sins Pro 28:13 which is what Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21

Please stop telling me what I believe or not and if one really wants to know what SDA’s believe best to go directly to the source

This is what we believe if you want to know. What do Seventh-day Adventists Believe?

There is widespread agreement among "Christians" that people continue to sin after salvation (1 Jn 1:8) and that there is no forgiveness for those sins without Christ's sacrifice paying for them (Heb 9:22). So what are we really arguing about?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, I was reacting to this:

“SabbathBlessings said:
We are to confess our faults to men James 5:16 to help lift each other up. Only God can forgive sins through His blood and Sacrifice, not anyone else 1 John 1:9

Which is no where close to this

The Lord’s Prayer says “Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us.”

Are you seriously saying we should not forgive our neighbor?

Matthew 6:14-15
Ephesians 4:32
Colossians 3:13

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is widespread agreement among "Christians" that people continue to sin after salvation (1 Jn 1:8) and that there is no forgiveness for those sins without Christ's sacrifice paying for them (Heb 9:22). So what are we really arguing about?

No, it’s not the disagreement.

I am saying through Christ we can overcome sin, which I already provided the scriptures. The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

Someone in Christ should not be living in sin. If we have sin we can’t seem to forsake, we should be spending more time in prayer and ask Jesus to overcome. Through Him all things are possible including forsaking our sins Pro 28:13 if we slip and fall, we have an Advocate with Jesus Christ who is so faithful to forgive us when we confess our sin, which means true repentance and a change of direction , but when Jesus healed He said go and sin no more if it weren’t possible He would not ask. We are told it’s possible Rev 14:12 if we abide in Christ John 15:5-10. God always gives us a way to escape through Him 1 Cor 10:13