The Ten Commandments and God's Finger

Bob S

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eleose wrote:
but regarding His Law ... the 10 ... it mirrors His character
I answered that statement:
that is a completely false statement eleos. Someone started the now false cliche and has a bunch of people using the saying. Again, it is a false statement. We cannot comprehend the character of God. Telling people that those eight thou shalt not laws and two other laws, one dealing with parents which God doesn't have and one ritual law add up to his character is bologna. The beatitudes would be a great start if you are in the comparison game.
I notice you didn't respond to my response that you made a false statement. Did you mean to skip over that portion or do you realize what you wrote is truly false?

Are you aware that the two greatest commandments ever given to Israel are not part of the now defunct 10 commandments? If you are bent on clinging to the old covenant laws I would think you would be quoting:
Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
and
Deuteronomy 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
 
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eleos1954

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I guess your bible doesn't have Ex34:27-28.


Clear as mud when we factor in verses 27-28.

22And you are to celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.c 23Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel. 24For I will drive out the nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God.

25Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to Me along with anything leavened, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

26Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.

You must not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27The LORD also said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

28So Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 10 are not contradictory. From the fuller context of Exodus 34 that Moses was instructed to write "these words." What words? The ones spoken in the preceding verses (Exodus 34:10-26 - the ceremonial and judicial injunctions, not the ten words of Exodus 20:2-17). Exodus 34:10 states, "Then the Lord said: I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people..." Exodus 34:27 completes the thought of what was instructed to be written by saying, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So, the verses between Exodus 34:10 and Exodus 34:27 are what was commanded to be written by Moses. According to Deuteronomy 10:1-4, God himself made the second inscription of the Ten Commandments.

Agree to disagree.
 
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eleos1954

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Hi Eleos, why didn't you mention verse 28? Why is it that some who post never include the complete scriptural thought when trying to make a point?

Was simply an over site on my part (sorry I'm human)... so regarding verse 28 ..

Exodus 34:28 states, “And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.”

Many have misunderstood this verse, believing that “He wrote” is a reference to Moses. They conclude that Moses must have written the Ten Commandments on the stone tablets.

Exodus 24:12 shows that this is an incorrect assumption. There, God instructed Moses, “…Come up to Me into the mount, and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.” Also, Exodus 31:18 states that God “…gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of communing with him upon Mt. Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”

Also notice: “The tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables” (Ex. 32:16). These were the stone tablets that Moses later broke (vs. 19), when finding the Israelites worshipping the golden calf. God later commanded Moses (34:1), “Hew…two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which you broke.” God (YHVH-“the LORD”) clearly stated that HE would write the Ten Commandments again.

As the Israelites’ forty years of wandering in the wilderness drew to a close, Moses recounted to them the ways God had miraculously delivered them and provided for them. He stated, in Deuteronomy 5:22, “These words the LORD spoke unto all your assembly in the mount…with a great voice…and He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.” Here, Moses was referring to the first tablets of stone that God had given him, the ones which he had broken (Ex. 32:19).

In Deuteronomy 10:1-5, Moses went on to repeat to the people that it was God who had twice written the Ten Commandments. Clearly, it was God, not Moses, who wrote the Ten Commandments both times.
 
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BobRyan

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Deut 4 summation of the Sinai event - 40 years later
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

36 Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you; on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Deut 5
22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


Ex 31
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

There is no "written with the finger of Moses" for the TEN Commandments in all of scripture - as we all know by now.

Ex 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.


Mark 7 "The Word of God" the "Command of God"
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men
.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

When you look at the entire scope of what the Bible says -- it is clear. And a one-off extreme-inference wrenching of one tiny verse does not change the overall position that the Bible takes on this topic.

My bible says God wrote the 10 both times Himself.

Exodus 34:1

1Then the LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the originals, and I (the Lord) will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Moses delivered the 2nd set of tablets (blank stone tablets that he - Moses chiseled out), and God wrote on them .... it's very clear.

Indeed -- the Bible.
 
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DamianWarS

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Do you know that it was Moses that chiseled the words of the covenant on the stone tablets that rested in the Ark of the Covenant? Moses spent forty days hammering on those stones. Those who tell us the ten were written by God's finger are telling us a misnomer. The set of commandments that Moses dropped and broke into pieces were written by God's finger. I wonder why God had Moses write the second set? Were they perfect like the first set would have been?

Ex34:27 The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. 28 He was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


it's unclear who actually etched the words in stone for the second set but Moses' first task was to make only the tablets. However, the passage may support both God and Moses. The commandments in ch 34 are not talked about lots, we focus on the popular 10 but ch 34 tells us another set
  1. Be careful not to make a treaty... (or they will be a snare among you) - v12
  2. Be careful not to make a treaty... (they will lead your sons to [prositution]) - v15
  3. Do not make any idols - v17
  4. Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread - v18
  5. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me - v19
  6. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest - v21
  7. Celebrate the Festival of Weeks - v22
  8. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast - v25
  9. Bring the best of the firstfruits - v26a
  10. Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk. - v26b
then it closes in v27 saying "Then the Lord said to Moses, Write down these words..." what words? because I just read a whole set of other commandments with some overlap but very much new so what are the words that Moses is commanded to write? These commandments presented here are called the "Ritual Decalogue" and maybe what the term "10 commandments" refers to as this text seems to points to them, not to the other 10.
 
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BobRyan

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Do you know that it was Moses that chiseled the words of the covenant on the stone tablets that rested in the Ark of the Covenant?

Deut 4 summation of the Sinai event - 40 years later
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

36 Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you; on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Deut 5
22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


Ex 31
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

There is no "written with the finger of Moses" for the TEN Commandments in all of scripture - as we all know by now.

Ex 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.


Mark 7 "The Word of God" the "Command of God"
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men
.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

it's unclear who actually etched the words in stone for the second set .

It looks like each of the summaries credit it to God. And depending how one hands out the antecedent to the pronouns in Ex 31 it is consistent.
 
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DamianWarS

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It looks like each of the summaries credit it to God. And depending how one hands out the antecedent to the pronouns in Ex 31 it is consistent.
I generally agree with this in a western vacuum but I also know eastern cultures work a little different as they are driven by honour over following surgical details as the west is. There is a place in these cultures where the actions of the subordinates become the physical hand of the authority to such a degree it would be dishonouring to speak of any other way. This officiates the act and raises it on a level so that it cannot be questioned, again honour is the greater focus here and this would be an appropriate action to commandments with such high value.

In this case, because these are foundational values, it is important that the words are from the hand of God himself. If Moses actually wrote it doesn't devalue the commandments and it's a bit of a strawman to claim that it does, just like its a strawman to claim that because God's finger wrote it then it puts it on a higher level, it's important because it's on tablets and God wanted it this way.

the accounts are not laser-focused on who did the writing and an argument could be made that Moses did it. What is more important however is who the text is pointing to than who actually did it and this points to God (welcome to eastern logic)
 
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BobRyan

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I generally agree with this in a western vacuum but I also know eastern cultures work a little different as they are driven by honour over following surgical details as the west is. There is a place in these cultures where the actions of the subordinates become the physical hand of the authority to such a degree it would be dishonouring to speak of any other way.

understood - but as we see here - "God wrote them" -- Tuesday at 12:39 PM #49

Often we find scripture as "Moses wrote" and "God said" -- and even "Moses said" in Mark 7:6-13 when in fact it is quoting God speaking. But not often do you have "God wrote"
 
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DamianWarS

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understood - but as we see here - "God wrote them" -- Tuesday at 12:39 PM #49

Often we find scripture as "Moses wrote" and "God said" -- and even "Moses said" in Mark 7:6-13 when in fact it is quoting God speaking. But not often do you have "God wrote"

your focus seems to miss my point as I state it doesn't matter who wrote them but your angle seems to demand it's God. An Eastern position gives God the credit as it honours him, a Western position gives God the credit to support an argument. The latter is the wrong focus and it forces the text to be warped and played with to support things it never intended to support.
 
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BobRyan

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your focus seems to miss my point as I state it doesn't matter who wrote them but your angle seems to demand it's God.

Is it your position that these texts leave it 'unclear'??

Deut 4 summation of the Sinai event - 40 years later
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

36 Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you; on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Deut 5
22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


Ex 31
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

There is no "written with the finger of Moses" for the TEN Commandments in all of scripture - as we all know by now.

Ex 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.


Mark 7 "The Word of God" the "Command of God"
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men
.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

It looks like each of the summaries credit it to God. And depending how one hands out the antecedent to the pronouns in Ex 31 it is consistent.

There is not one case in all of scripture where it is claimed that a given book of the Bible (not even the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy) was "written by God on paper" or "on stone".

We only have that claim for the Ten "And he added no more" Deut 5.
 
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DamianWarS

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Is it your position that these texts leave it 'unclear'??

my position is it doesn't matter

There is not one case in all of scripture where it is claimed that a given book of the Bible (not even the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy) was "written by God on paper" or "on stone".

We only have that claim for the Ten "And he added no more" Deut 5.

again it doesn't matter, the 10 commandments are not elevated above scripture (which is where your logic is going) they are a part of scripture. God explicitly writing them or not doesn't change their meaning.
 
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BobRyan

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your focus seems to miss my point as I state it doesn't matter who wrote them but your angle seems to demand it's God.

Is it your position that these texts leave it 'unclear'??

Deut 4 summation of the Sinai event - 40 years later
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

36 Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you; on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Deut 5
22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


Ex 31
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

There is no "written with the finger of Moses" for the TEN Commandments in all of scripture - as we all know by now.

Ex 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.


Mark 7 "The Word of God" the "Command of God"
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men
.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

It looks like each of the summaries credit it to God. And depending how one hands out the antecedent to the pronouns in Ex 31 it is consistent.

There is not one case in all of scripture where it is claimed that a given book of the Bible (not even the book of Exodus or Deuteronomy) was "written by God on paper" or "on stone".

We only have that claim for the Ten "And he added no more" Deut 5.

my position is it doesn't matter
again it doesn't matter, the 10 commandments are not elevated above scripture

1. They are scripture - no doubt.
2. God places the "Ten" inside the ark and all other scripture -- outside of it.

My argument is not "push down scripture so you can finally read and accept the Ten Commandments"
I am simply noting "details" - that the Ten are inside the ark and the rest of scripture is not.
That the Ten are written with God's finger on stone and the rest of scripture NT and OT is written via some other method "alone".

God is the one that makes those distinctions but does not do it so that we would ignore or degrade the rest of scripture -- that we seem to both agree on.
 
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DamianWarS

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1. They are scripture - no doubt.
2. God places the "Ten" inside the ark and all other scripture -- outside of it.

My argument is not "push down scripture so you can finally read and accept the Ten Commandments"
I am simply noting "details" - that the Ten are inside the ark and the rest of scripture is not.
That the Ten are written with God's finger on stone and the rest of scripture NT and OT is written via some other method "alone".

God is the one that makes those distinctions but does not do it so that we would ignore or degrade the rest of scripture -- that we seem to both agree on.

your details are not without hyperbole. God does not place anything in the ark nor is his finger mentioned. So are we noting the details of scripture or are we exaggerating the text to enforce an agenda? the 10 commandments were placed in the ark (by instruction from God) but where are they now? The Israelites didn't have the luxury to carry a leather-bound, gold leaf KJV in the Ark because the technology didn't allow it not to mention there was no scripture to put in outside of the tablets. The tablets represent a covenant relationship that goes far beyond their commandments (that's what Ex 34 is about) and its good to mark these covenants with something concrete (or in stone) that you can remember them by, the tablets are an example of this.

I seem to get the impression that you think that if God directly wrote the commandments it makes them more special then if Moses did it. I simply don't see that and see it more of a pagan value to think it elevates them. We worship God not stone and God working through us carries the same authority. I actually think the second set had more impact since it's rougher edges is a sobering reminder of how Isreal betrayed God but also a second set speaks of second chances too.
 
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Bob S

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Paul, the ambassador of Christ wrote that the ten commandments WERE temporary. They were temporary because they were replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The ten plus the remainder of the book of the law were the guide for Israel. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind. If anyone has a beef with that study 2Cor3:6-11.
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Paul, the ambassador of Christ wrote that the ten commandments WERE temporary.
He most certainly did not.
They were temporary because they were replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
How could the Holy Spirit replace something that He preceded?
The ten plus the remainder of the book of the law were the guide for Israel.
They were separate.
The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind.
Nut He never guides contrary to Scripture.
If anyone has a beef with that study 2Cor3:6-11.
The entire Bible should not be viewed by everyone through the lens of your own interpretation of your favorite passage.
 
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Dkh587

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Paul, the ambassador of Christ wrote that the ten commandments WERE temporary. They were temporary because they were replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The ten plus the remainder of the book of the law were the guide for Israel. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind. If anyone has a beef with that study 2Cor3:6-11.

show us the lawless new covenant with mankind told of by God/the prophets/Messiah/apostles please.

If a spirit is leading us to disobedience of God’s law, it’s not the Holy Spirit
 
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Bob S

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show us the lawless new covenant with mankind told of by God/the prophets/Messiah/apostles please.

If a spirit is leading us to disobedience of God’s law, it’s not the Holy Spirit
Hi Dkh, continue to use the word "lawless" and I will not respond to your posts, okay? It is not fair and is not true plus I resent that you would ever suggest that new covenant Christians are lawless.
Heb7:
22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb8:
6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Rom8:
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom6:
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Heb9:
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Matt5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

As you should plainly see there was a covenant change and Jesus said He came to fulfill the prophets. Jeremiah's prophesy Jer31:31 was fulfilled by Jesus. The same with the Law give at Sinai.

2Cor3:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jesus is our eternal Priest and He changed the covenant Law on the Cross.
Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

And it was.
 
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