The Ten Commandments and God's Finger

[Bob S]

Brother, I hope to reach you explaining what I see through the Scriptures.

Thank you for your interest Jorge. Sometimes I read between the lines and in your post to me I am reading that you assume I am a lost soul. This time I am one because I wrote that there is nothing in the ten commandments about love. Love is the greatest command and found in the book of the law in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. You take offence at that statement, but cannot prove otherwise.

In other posts I quote 2Cor3:6-11 and you respond with Peters thoughts. I have to assume that the Holy Spirit has not helped you to discern those verses or you are in complete denial. Yet the verses are completely in harmony with Jesus words in Matt 5:17 where Jesus says in His own words that He came to fulfill the Law and the prophets. Fulfill means to bring to an end and that is exactly what He did on the Cross. The old Law went down and was replaced with the Royal law of Love and ratified by His own blood. I know this upsets your apple cart, but that is God's plan. Where there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the Law. Heb7:12

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:3 NIV)

How very true.​

Can you have a perceived love for the world that gains you “nothing”, I mean a perceived love you can clearly “boast” about to the world? What does “gain nothing” mean? Will you “gain” eternal life?

A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’” “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” (Luke 18:18-25 NIV)​

You must ask yourself, how can we lose Jesus’ salvation when we have the Help of the Holy Spirit putting the law in our hearts? Good question, let us find what the Scriptures have to say about this!

“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:25-26 NIV)​

What does all of your pasting of scripture have to do with nothing about love in the ten commandments?

It is a historical fact that the Holy Spirit has taught us by adding to the Scriptures the New Testament and He places the law in our hearts by reminding us of Jesus' message, if you do not “distort” His message to your own destruction, causing His reminder to have no effect on your heart.

Now that is hard to understand. Paul's writings are a snap when placed with yours.

I did get that He placed the Law in our hearts. What law or laws are supposed to be there? If the ritual Sabbath law is there then why is it so hard to get converts. Why are they not breaking the doors of your churches down? The SDA church spends millions and more millions trying to harvest souls into their churches. Very few are persuaded to join and even when they do many of them go out the back door. So much for the Sabbath being on our hearts.

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (2 Peter 3:13-18 NIV)​

Is that supposed to be a nice way of telling me I am "unstable"? I quote Paul telling us that the ten commandments were temporary so I am "unstable"?

 

[sparow]

It is very troubling to me that you deny (reading between the lines) the writings of Paul. Jesus chose Paul to be His ambassador to teach Christianity to us. Denying Paul has to do with a person's preconceived beliefs and not because Paul differs from Jesus.


Yes, the penalty of sin is death, I totally agree. What you are totally ignoring is that the abrogated law has been replaced by the laws of the new covenant. It happened at the Cross of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the demands of the Sinai covenant laws and the prophets which is what He said He came to do. Matt5:17 He didn't leave us lawless and to try to tell me I am proposing such lawlessness is ludicrous. At the Cross, Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood. Jeremiah's prophesy came to fruition at that point in time. The new covenant is not the old one warmed over, it is new, a different kind of covenant. Israel's covenant was the guide from God for how He wanted them to live in the desert and then in Canaan. The new covenant is for all mankind and it is to prepare us for our Heavenly home. Our covenant is about living a moral life loving our fellow man. It is not full of ritual commands like the old one.


Only in your eyes. Paul and I are one in thought.


What makes you believe I do not agree with those verses?

You have to be kidding friend. Jesus was total love. It came out of every pore of His body. He was the one that told us to love others as He loves us. Love is the great theme of the New Testament. I cannot believe you oppose love. Of course, Jesus was not referring that He loves us sexually. The word love has been abused in many ways. Jesus is referring to agape love. Jn15: 12 My command is this: love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

I really should not have had to have this conversation, but I pray that it will enlighten you to what Jesus expects from us as Christians.

I believe laws dealing with moral issues are for as long as man exists. The ritual laws given only to Israel have been abrogated. It is not a sin to not keep their ritual laws and their weekly Sabbath, new moon celebrations, and special Sabbaths (feast days). Paul and Jesus added some moral laws to the few moral laws found in the ten commandments and the book of the law that should enlighten you to the fact that the Ten were just the tip of the iceberg concerning how we are to treat God and our fellow man.

Gal5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

At risk of upsetting the moderator, I'll explain my position. I do not deny Paul wrote his epistles; but I allow he may not have or that the epistles could be edited. I do doubt that Jesus chose Paul. Paul is the apostle who testifies of himself; Jesus said if He testifies of Himself His testimony would not be true; to be true Jesus need His father's testimony as a second witness; Paul is not pre-empted by the OT as was Jesus and John. Jesus could have pre-empted or prevalidated Paul but He did not. Jesus told the apostles that He would not do anything unless He told them first, I presume He would have told them while He was still with them. Paul took the apostles by surprise, apart from an unknown person having a dream after the road to Damascus alleged event.

I do not judge Paul, I do not trust him with my salvation; if Paul was necessary for my salvation that would mean not only is the Law abrogated but the Father and the Son also.

I appreciate your endurance, and and that you believe what you say. Nothing is abrogated; had Jesus changed a single He would have been declared a fraud, and rightly so. In fulfilling all that the Law and the prophets and the Psalms said He would do is confirming the OLD covenant.

Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

One reason Many Jews reject Jesus is because not every thing said of the Messiah in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms has been fulfilled. Jesus was cut of half way through the week and still has half a week of confirming the Old covenant to go when He returns. This is my understanding and I don't know any body who agrees with me. So the new covenant has to fit into the Old Covenant shell. The new covenant fits into the 2000 odd years between the first and second coming; the book of Revelation also spans this period; but that great and terrible day of the Lord is OT..

I am eccentric and I know it. But as a fly on the wall observing your debate with the SDA, Eastern Orthodox and the non denominational I see you all arguing arguments but with out common ground and the subject of the debate is not clear, definition is not clear.

What is a covenant? Originally this word meant pact between witches; the Hebrew word means, a compact made; to create, to cut down, select feed, chose. When blood defines the compact the matter becomes serious. The old covenant fits the definition but I find it hard to fit love into the definition. In the Greek the meaning is, contract, testament.

You and them are travelling in opposite directions so at least one of you is following a false prophet. Saying the Law is abrogated isn't helpful unless you can show the relevant legislation that brings the abrogation about; as far as the Bible is concerned God has not changed anything other than the algorithm marches forward and the coming Kingdom unfolds like a flower.

With the early church there was a falling away, not keeping the Sabbath was indirectly due to Roman persecution of The Jews and if one law is broken all are broken. In the third century a Roman Governor with a merry band of these probably fallen Christians mixed with Pagans decided what would be in the Bible, and so we have Paul's epistles; so it is Rome, the enemy of God, the legs and feet of the Beast, not exclusively the Catholic Church who claims to be the abrogator. This abrogation is further exasperated futurism, another Roman trick, Where Christ denied His confirming the covenant and the fulfilling of the confirming prophesy is given to Satan after irrationally throwing the seventieth week down to the end of time; such is to deny Christ and the power thereof.

For the debate to be fruitful it need to be taken back to the point where your direction departs from theirs.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Start thinking friend. You know that there are some who would kill if they didn't fear getting caught.

There is nothing in the ten about love period.

Again, fear of getting caught has nothing to do with anything. If you want to murder that person, do you love them? Believe what you want...

 

[Danthemailman]

The SDA church spends millions and more millions trying to harvest souls into their churches. Very few are persuaded to join and even when they do many of them go out the back door. So much for the Sabbath being on our hearts.

Is that supposed to be a nice way of telling me I am "unstable"? I quote Paul telling us that the ten commandments were temporary so I am "unstable"?

I was recently in a discussion with a SDA who asked me if I kept His commandments (and placed a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment from the Mosaic law/old covenant - Exodus 31:16-17; Deuteronomy 5:1-15; Nehemiah 9:13-14 etc..). When I pointed out to him that the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new covenant (Hebrews 8:13; 2 Corinthians 3:6-9) and the Church is not obligated to keep the Sabbath day (Colossians 2:16-17) he went ballistic and told me that I do not keep His commandments, am willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26) and will be condemned. The gospel that SDA's push amounts to salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" which is a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

 

[Bob S]

At risk of upsetting the moderator, I'll explain my position. I do not deny Paul wrote his epistles; but I allow he may not have or that the epistles could be edited. I do doubt that Jesus chose Paul. Paul is the apostle who testifies of himself; Jesus said if He testifies of Himself His testimony would not be true; to be true Jesus need His father's testimony as a second witness; Paul is not pre-empted by the OT as was Jesus and John. Jesus could have pre-empted or prevalidated Paul but He did not. Jesus told the apostles that He would not do anything unless He told them first, I presume He would have told them while He was still with them. Paul took the apostles by surprise, apart from an unknown person having a dream after the road to Damascus alleged event.

God has preserved His Word, the Holy Scriptures, throughout the ages. When you start believing that a part of the Holy Writ has not been preserved and unholy writings have been added then you deny the power of God to keep His plan of Salvation in toto. I strongly disagree with you. Your preconceived ideas have caused you to have to deny parts of scripture. Like most people who differ from the Word it is obvious that there is a lack of discernment concerning the Sinai covenant and the new covenant

I do not judge Paul, I do not trust him with my salvation; if Paul was necessary for my salvation that would mean not only is the Law abrogated but the Father and the Son also.

No thinking person would trust Paul for their salvation. Christians put our trust in Jesus and Him only. Paul has not written one word that would dissuade us of that fact. Paul was there to teach us that there is nothing I can do to save me. He wrote a letter to the Galatians calling them foolish for giving up salvation through faith in Jesus for the Law that could only point out sin and could not save one soul.

I appreciate your endurance, and and that you believe what you say. Nothing is abrogated; had Jesus changed a single He would have been declared a fraud, and rightly so. In fulfilling all that the Law and the prophets and the Psalms said He would do is confirming the OLD covenant.

Jesus was declared a fraud my friend and He did change the laws concerning morality laws of the Sinai covenant. Matt5:21-47

Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

One reason Many Jews reject Jesus is because not every thing said of the Messiah in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms has been fulfilled. Jesus was cut of half way through the week and still has half a week of confirming the Old covenant to go when He returns. This is my understanding and I don't know any body who agrees with me. So the new covenant has to fit into the Old Covenant shell. The new covenant fits into the 2000 odd years between the first and second coming; the book of Revelation also spans this period; but that great and terrible day of the Lord is OT..

Jesus said: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
It appears that you do not believe the words of Jesus. Well, I do and no one can convince me that Jesus didn't tell the truth in that statement. Sure the World has not ended and there are things yet to happen, but Jesus came, fulfilled the Law and the prophesies about His coming, gave us the new and better covenant with better promises, ratified our covenant with His own blood and died that we might live eternally with Him in the Earth made new. Anyone that denies that denies the plan of salvation.

I am eccentric and I know it. But as a fly on the wall observing your debate with the SDA, Eastern Orthodox and the non denominational I see you all arguing arguments but with out common ground and the subject of the debate is not clear, definition is not clear.

I believe you cannot discern our common ground because of your denial of very important scripture. All of my opponents believe that salvation is in Jesus Christ. We all believe He died so that we will live. My assurance of salvation is in Jesus only. There is nothing I can do to assure my salvation except believe. Believing then makes me want to do the will of the Son of God. He asks me to love my fellow man and care for those who are less fortunate. 1Jn 3:19-24 When I do this I know I am doing right.

What is a covenant? Originally this word meant pact between witches;

Where did that nonsense come from???

the Hebrew word means, a compact made; to create, to cut down, select feed, chose. When blood defines the compact the matter becomes serious. The old covenant fits the definition but I find it hard to fit love into the definition. In the Greek the meaning is, contract, testament.

Maybe you should look a little deeper. Remember the other 306 laws of the covenant had laws concerning love. The ten commandments didn't ask the Israelite to love. Commanding man to love just will not work. Love has to come from the heart. Others can command respect, but no one including God can command love.

You and them are travelling in opposite directions so at least one of you is following a false prophet.

How in the world did you come to that conclusion. False prophet??? I learned a long time ago not to put my trust in prophets or other men. I was SDA for 40 years. I found out that the prophet I once trusted is very much a false one. The Holy Spirit is my guide.

Saying the Law is abrogated isn't helpful unless you can show the relevant legislation that brings the abrogation about; as far as the Bible is concerned God has not changed anything other than the algorithm marches forward and the coming Kingdom unfolds like a flower.

I have declared nothing on my own. The revelation I receive comes from studying the Holy Writ. Jesus Himself said He came to fulfill the Law. I once again proclaim His Words as truth. I am so sorry you and others do not accept Jesus words.

With the early church there was a falling away, not keeping the Sabbath was indirectly due to Roman persecution of The Jews and if one law is broken all are broken. In the third century a Roman Governor with a merry band of these probably fallen Christians mixed with Pagans decided what would be in the Bible, and so we have Paul's epistles; so it is Rome, the enemy of God, the legs and feet of the Beast, not exclusively the Catholic Church who claims to be the abrogator. This abrogation is further exasperated futurism, another Roman trick, Where Christ denied His confirming the covenant and the fulfilling of the confirming prophesy is given to Satan after irrationally throwing the seventieth week down to the end of time; such is to deny Christ and the power thereof.

The end of Sabbath keeping had nothing to do with Rome or anything else. When the Sinai covenant ended so did the laws of that covenant. The new covenant is not about the keeping of days, months, years and special events.

For the debate to be fruitful it need to be taken back to the point where your direction departs from theirs.

Lead on my friend.

 

[Bob S]

Again, fear of getting caught has nothing to do with anything.

That is pure bologna.

If you want to murder that person, do you love them? Believe what you want...

Love is a separate command. The subject is the ten commandments and there is nothing in the ten about love. The ten are about duty. Love comes from the heart. Jesus asks me to love even my enemies. How can I love my enemies and then kill them.

You are trying to put another subject into the debate.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That is pure bologna.

Love comes from the heart. Jesus asks me to love even my enemies. How can I love my enemies and then kill them.

Enjoy your bologna! You just proved my point

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

False prophet??? I learned a long time ago not to put my trust in prophets or other men. I was SDA for 40 years. I found out that the prophet I once trusted is very much a false one. The Holy Spirit is my guide.

AH, now I understand why you say the things you do.

 

[sparow]

God has preserved His Word, the Holy Scriptures, throughout the ages. When you start believing that a part of the Holy Writ has not been preserved and unholy writings have been added then you deny the power of God to keep His plan of Salvation in toto. I strongly disagree with you. Your preconceived ideas have caused you to have to deny parts of scripture. Like most people who differ from the Word it is obvious that there is a lack of discernment concerning the Sinai covenant and the new covenant


No thinking person would trust Paul for their salvation. Christians put our trust in Jesus and Him only. Paul has not written one word that would dissuade us of that fact. Paul was there to teach us that there is nothing I can do to save me. He wrote a letter to the Galatians calling them foolish for giving up salvation through faith in Jesus for the Law that could only point out sin and could not save one soul.


Jesus was declared a fraud my friend and He did change the laws concerning morality laws of the Sinai covenant. Matt5:21-47

Jesus said: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
It appears that you do not believe the words of Jesus. Well, I do and no one can convince me that Jesus didn't tell the truth in that statement. Sure the World has not ended and there are things yet to happen, but Jesus came, fulfilled the Law and the prophesies about His coming, gave us the new and better covenant with better promises, ratified our covenant with His own blood and died that we might live eternally with Him in the Earth made new. Anyone that denies that denies the plan of salvation.


I believe you cannot discern our common ground because of your denial of very important scripture. All of my opponents believe that salvation is in Jesus Christ. We all believe He died so that we will live. My assurance of salvation is in Jesus only. There is nothing I can do to assure my salvation except believe. Believing then makes me want to do the will of the Son of God. He asks me to love my fellow man and care for those who are less fortunate. 1Jn 3:19-24 When I do this I know I am doing right.


Where did that nonsense come from???


Maybe you should look a little deeper. Remember the other 306 laws of the covenant had laws concerning love. The ten commandments didn't ask the Israelite to love. Commanding man to love just will not work. Love has to come from the heart. Others can command respect, but no one including God can command love.


How in the world did you come to that conclusion. False prophet??? I learned a long time ago not to put my trust in prophets or other men. I was SDA for 40 years. I found out that the prophet I once trusted is very much a false one. The Holy Spirit is my guide.


I have declared nothing on my own. The revelation I receive comes from studying the Holy Writ. Jesus Himself said He came to fulfill the Law. I once again proclaim His Words as truth. I am so sorry you and others do not accept Jesus words.


The end of Sabbath keeping had nothing to do with Rome or anything else. When the Sinai covenant ended so did the laws of that covenant. The new covenant is not about the keeping of days, months, years and special events.


Lead on my friend.

<< God has preserved His Word, the Holy Scriptures, throughout the ages. When you start believing that a part of the Holy Writ has not been preserved and unholy writings have been added then you deny the power of God to keep His plan of Salvation in toto. I strongly disagree with you. Your preconceived ideas have caused you to have to deny parts of scripture. Like most people who differ from the Word it is obvious that there is a lack of discernment concerning the Sinai covenant and the new covenant>>

I believe the scriptures are adequate for anyone's salvation; but they do not automatically produce salvation, they do contain that narrow path that leads to life that few find.

“God has preserved His Word, the Holy Scriptures, throughout the ages.” This is an assumption, unless you can produce scripture that says so. The OT is authenticated by Christ's appearance, and substantially, in part, by Christ's confirming the covenant or fulfilling all those things prophesied for him to fulfil in the Law and the Prophets, and the Psalms. Jesus authenticates the OT and the OT authenticates Jesus. The NT is not authenticated and wont be until Christ returns and the authentication will take the form of prophesy fulfilled. My discernment concerning the Sinai covenant and the new covenant is not lacking it is merely different to your discernment; there may be an arrogance on my part regarding my ability to understand scripture better than you.

These two scripture may interest you.

Revelation 22:19 (NKJV)
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Jeremiah 8:8-9 (NKJV)
8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
9 The wise men are ashamed, They are dismayed and taken. Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD; So what wisdom do they have?


Clearly the words of the Bible can be fiddled with, and if I were Satan I wouldn't miss that opportunity and I would probably use a Roman Emperor and Roman citizens

<<<Paul was there to teach us that there is nothing I can do to save me. He wrote a letter to the Galatians calling them foolish for giving up salvation through faith in Jesus for the Law that could only point out sin and could not save one soul.>>>

I do not believe Paul has said what you say, but if he did then Paul is wrong. At the very least a person is required to search for the narrow path that leads to life. It is true salvation cannot be earned by keeping the Law while not in covenant with God yet when in covenant God the law is required to be kept, salvation is present, and cannot be further gained but it can be lost by not keeping the Law. So how is the Law to be kept; one could stand still and not do ten things and say to God, “look at me I haven't done anything, I have not committed murder, I have not used your name for a useless purpose, “ and so on; one might add, “I have not kept your Holy day holy because that commandment was given exclusively to Israel and I understand I will be excluded from the New Jerusalem which is exclusively for the house of Israel”. Keeping the Law by not doing, takes a person nowhere., there is no increase; remembering the parable of the talents. Even though the Law is given as do not, do not, ten times, what is required in the keeping is do, do, do without limit, such that there is an increase. I suppose one could accrue negatively hypothetically while standing around with hands in pockets, “Look at me, God, today I have not committed murder 17 times. On the positive side the number of things one may do is infinite but each item in the set has to be done in the context of the ten do not's. This process is called walking with God or having the Law written on one heart, and required in the old covenant as well as the new.


<<<Jesus was declared a fraud my friend and He did change the laws concerning morality laws of the Sinai covenant. Matt5:21-47>>>

He was declared fraudulent only in that Jesus claimed to be God, Blasphemy was the crime He was crucified for; had He claimed to be the Messiah, that would have been disputed but it may not have led to his crucifixion; had He advocated changing the Law, that would have been a legal matter; He would have been dismissed as a nut.

<<<Jesus said: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
It appears that you do not believe the words of Jesus. Well, I do and no one can convince me that Jesus didn't tell the truth in that statement. Sure the World has not ended and there are things yet to happen, but Jesus came, fulfilled the Law and the prophesies about His coming, gave us the new and better covenant with better promises, ratified our covenant with His own blood and died that we might live eternally with Him in the Earth made new. Anyone that denies that denies the plan of salvation.>>>


It appears that you not only engage in one verse theology, but you take that one verse literally, incorrectly. I can agree with many of the words you speak yet I know those words mean something different to you than to me; you speak them in the context of the Law abrogated, I read them in the context of the Law not abrogated. One thing I have noticed about the verse you quoted is that destroy and abrogate have identical meaning; so the translators/interpreters could couk have render the verse this way:

“”Think not that I am come to abrogate the law, or the prophets: I am not come to abrogate, but to fulfil”.

<<<Maybe you should look a little deeper. Remember the other 306 laws of the covenant had laws concerning love. The ten commandments didn't ask the Israelite to love. Commanding man to love just will not work. Love has to come from the heart. Others can command respect, but no one including God can command love.>>>




I don't know anything about the Pharisaical traditions of men, in place of what God had given; which I presume are the 306 laws you refer to. I am aware that the Pharisees changed God's Law, converted the Law into something ugly, with out changing a word in the scrolls.




So you don't see love in the Ten Commandments; I do; The First great commandment is an abstract or paraphrase of the first four of the ten, the second great commandment is an abstract or paraphrase of the last six of the ten.




<<<How in the world did you come to that conclusion. False prophet??? I learned a long time ago not to put my trust in prophets or other men. I was SDA for 40 years. I found out that the prophet I once trusted is very much a false one. The Holy Spirit is my guide.>>>

False prophet can mean pied piper. Regarding Ellen White prophet needs to defined; there are prophets of the OT and these are defined as: they receive their material directly from God; further qualified by: they do not interpret from scripture or make it up. Ellen white defined herself as an interpreter of scripture, by her own definition white was not of the same ilk as the prophets of old, however in these last days the new covenant church is supposed to be saturated with prophets; prophets come in all shapes and sizes; anyone who stands on a soap box is a prophet.


<<<

""Saying the Law is abrogated isn't helpful unless you can show the relevant legislation that brings the abrogation about; as far as the Bible is concerned God has not changed anything other than the algorithm marches forward and the coming Kingdom unfolds like a flower.""


I have declared nothing on my own. The revelation I receive comes from studying the Holy Writ. Jesus Himself said He came to fulfill the Law. I once again proclaim His Words as truth. I am so sorry you and others do not accept Jesus word.>>>


I am having great difficulty in understanding your position. I believe your understanding is faulty; Jesus said He came to fulfil the law and the Prophets, (implying fulfilling the prophecies contained therein); some or many believe Jesus kept the Law perfectly so they no longer have to keep the Law; you seem to be taking it further saying that by Jesus's keeping the Law perfectly once, Jesus renders the Law obsolete. But this is faulty logic for this reason: Jesus also kept all of the so called NT laws perfectly so they should also be obsolete.

<<<The end of Sabbath keeping had nothing to do with Rome or anything else. When the Sinai covenant ended so did the laws of that covenant. The new covenant is not about the keeping of days, months, years and special events.>>>

The Sinai covenant has not ended yet:

Daniel 2:34 (NKJV)
34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.

Daniel 2:45 (NKJV)
45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."

Jesus Christ is that stone and the beast is not destroyed yet.

 

[Bob S]

<<
The Sinai covenant has not ended yet:

Daniel 2:34 (NKJV)
34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.

Daniel 2:45 (NKJV)
45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."

Jesus Christ is that stone and the beast is not destroyed yet.

Your theology amazes me. Excuse after excuse is all you could offer then to top it all off you believe we are still in the Sinai covenant era??? Are you self teaching or is someone else filling your head with what your believe? Oh! I bet you don't believe the book of Hebrews, because if you did and studied that book you couldn't help believing we are living in the new covenant era. I wish I could help all who think Christians have to obey the ritual laws of the Sinai covenant, but first one has to come with an open mind.

 

[guevaraj]

Thank you for your interest Jorge. Sometimes I read between the lines and in your post to me I am reading that you assume I am a lost soul.

Brother, happy Sabbath! I would like to show you our prophetess' inspiration above the traditions of our church, but you dismiss the Sabbath with the rest of the ten commandments as unimportant for Christians. This prevents you from seeing how God used our prophet to help us understand more about the Sabbath. What I can say is that “since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold,” Jesus will spit you out of His mouth! You will not go to heaven with Jesus when He returns, do not think that because you are not completely Evil, He will have to accept you. The Devil is better than you at looking for ways to twist God’s arm, but he will not succeed. However, I do not assume that you are lost, the Holy Spirit helps you, but you do not understand how He helps you. The Holy Spirit works with the Scriptures when you do not distort His message in the Scriptures, like many other Christians who get carried away by “the error of the lawless” and fall from the secure place of putting the law in their hearts and choose to drop the law in their hearts distorting the Scriptures to their own “destruction”.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34 NIV)​

He says nothing about eliminating the law that reveals our sin He wrote with His own finger, how it comes to us is different, no one will have to teach it because everyone will know Him. The bishops of Rome no longer teach us from a language to which they only have access, today everyone has a Bible and can read the ten commandments in their own language for the Holy Spirit to remind them of the sins they need Jesus to help them with as our High Priest in the daily of the heavenly temple to give us another chance, and another till we are like Jesus to stand with Jesus.

This time I am one because I wrote that there is nothing in the ten commandments about love.

A clear distortion of the Scriptures that according to Peter you do to your own “destruction”.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16b NIV)​

God is love and He wrote with His own finger the ten commandments. I admit that Jesus himself had more to say than the minimal love demanded in the ten commandments, but Jesus does not want less than the ten commandments He wrote with His own finger.

Love is the greatest command and found in the book of the law in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. You take offence at that statement, but cannot prove otherwise.

You think you know what love is, when it is God alone who is qualified to define what love is. I have provided Scriptural evidence that shows that the ten commandments are God’s minimalist definition of love; you are just not listening.

In other posts I quote 2Cor3:6-11 and you respond with Peters thoughts.

I have given you the correct view of Paul’s message in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures. You refuse to see my reading of it and prefer your own interpretation in contradiction to the rest of the Scriptures.

I have to assume that the Holy Spirit has not helped you to discern those verses or you are in complete denial. Yet the verses are completely in harmony with Jesus words in Matt 5:17 where Jesus says in His own words that He came to fulfill the Law and the prophets.

You think Jesus is in harmony with your view by distorting what the word “fulfill” means. It does not mean the removal of the law when fulfilled, it does mean it remains when fulfilled.

Fulfill means to bring to an end and that is exactly what He did on the Cross.

You realize that you distort Paul’s words to contradict Jesus in this below passage and you deal with it by distorting the meaning of the word “fulfill” in Jesus message.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

The context itself shows that Jesus is not removing the commandments because heaven and earth have not disappeared and what Jesus is doing is obeying the commandments by dying for our sins as our creator, ultimately responsible for our actions even though He is without sin. In modern terms, if I “fulfill” the transit laws, I get a lower price on my insurance premium, but it does not end the ten commandments for others whose disobedience will lead to higher insurance premiums for them. We can focus your distortion of Jesus’ message above on a word: “fulfill”. Below is the same Greek word translated above as “fulfill”, used in a context where Paul clearly does not end the word of God, by John is the last book in our Bibles written. Jesus' message is clear, it is your interpretation of Paul that is wrong, just as Peter "forewarned" us about “the error of the lawless”, who set aside God's minimalist definition of love to boast of their own definition when the ten commandments clearly stay till heaven and earth disappears and show you stay a slave to sin when the Holy Spirit gives power to fulfill the least ten commandments and more.

of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, (Colossians 1:25 NKJ)​

If I “fulfill” all transit laws, does that mean that others do not have to obey the transit laws? A clear distortion in your mind of the use of that word. It does mean that my insurance will be lower than those who do not obey the laws and get ticketed for not obeying the law.

The old Law went down and was replaced with the Royal law of Love and ratified by His own blood. I know this upsets your apple cart, but that is God's plan. Where there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the Law. Heb7:12

The only difference with the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit helps by putting the law in our hearts instead of us taking on that responsibility of keeping the law in our hearts.

How very true.

Does that mean that you recognize that there is a love for the world that gains you nothing?

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. (1 John 2:15 NIV)​

Is this the love you boast about? A love defined by the world, that will gain you nothing, instead of God’s definition?

What does all of your pasting of scripture have to do with nothing about love in the ten commandments?

I have already posted that the ten commandments are God’s minimalist definition of love. Confessed by an expert in the law and confirmed by Jesus.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28 NIV)​

This expert in the law summarized the ten commandments as love for God and neighbor and Jesus confirmed his understanding of the law, you however want a love that does not obey the ten commandments.

Now that is hard to understand. Paul's writings are a snap when placed with yours.

It follows from my reading of Peter. How would you explain how you distort the Scriptures to your own “destruction”? There is more to learn about the Sabbath when we are not distracted by “the error of the lawless,” distorting Paul’s message, when he clearly expects us to obey the law more now than before.

I did get that He placed the Law in our hearts. What law or laws are supposed to be there?

Certainly not your own definition of love, shown deficient by God’s true definition of love.

If the ritual Sabbath law is there then why is it so hard to get converts. Why are they not breaking the doors of your churches down? The SDA church spends millions and more millions trying to harvest souls into their churches. Very few are persuaded to join and even when they do many of them go out the back door. So much for the Sabbath being on our hearts.

Unfortunately, expected, the closer you are to the Scriptures, the narrower the way:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14 NIV)​

Your lawless interpretation of love is a broad road that leads to destruction.

Is that supposed to be a nice way of telling me I am "unstable"? I quote Paul telling us that the ten commandments were temporary so I am "unstable"?

The ten commandments are the least show of love God demands, He certainly has demanded more than the ten commandments with the Help of the Holy Spirit, but He does not want less than the ten commandments. Paul tells us the law is good, but you want to disobey it and that is a broad road that leads to destruction. Thanks to Jesus as our High Priest and the constant help of the Holy Spirit putting the law in my heart, I can obey these ten commandments and more. That is a narrow road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Jesus has provided a way for us to obey the law with the Help of the Holy Spirit placing the law in our hearts and not by eliminating the law from our hearts as you teach to your own “destruction”.

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. (Romans 7:10-16 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[sparow]

Your theology amazes me. Excuse after excuse is all you could offer then to top it all off you believe we are still in the Sinai covenant era??? Are you self teaching or is someone else filling your head with what your believe? Oh! I bet you don't believe the book of Hebrews, because if you did and studied that book you couldn't help believing we are living in the new covenant era. I wish I could help all who think Christians have to obey the ritual laws of the Sinai covenant, but first one has to come with an open mind.

I don't know that theology, the science of God, applies to me; theology would be for people Seminary trained; but I observe there are two types of theology, good theology and bad theology. Good theology is where the scientist is in subjection to God; bad theology is where the scientists places God in subjection to them selves.

I have been debating the relevance of the Law, as have others, I now realise this was not the intended topic of the thread; what you call excuses I suspect are my arguments.

Are we still in the Sinai covenant era? I am not a Dispensationalist so I don't use their time slots. God's covenant established at Sinai is further revealed and expanded though out the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms. As an ex-SDA you should be aware that Revelation fits over Danial as a glove on a hand so therefore Daniel (the Sinai covenant) reaches through to the second resurrection, the destruction of the wicked and beyond. The new covenant is a subset of the old as well as being the old fulfilled in part.

The book of Hebrews, like Paul's epistles are private and one side of a conversation not addressed to me; If I were killing sheep and had not accepted Jesus as the daily sacrifice and mediator of God's covenant then the arguments in Hebrews might apply to me.

 

[Bob S]

Brother, happy Sabbath!

The first thing you write is an insult to me. You know I do not believe there is a day that must be kept yet you ignore my feelings.

I would like to show you our prophetess' inspiration above the traditions of our church, but you dismiss the Sabbath with the rest of the ten commandments as unimportant for Christians. This prevents you from seeing how God used our prophet to help us understand more about the Sabbath. What I can say is that “since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold,” Jesus will spit you out of His mouth! You will not go to heaven with Jesus when He returns, do not think that because you are not completely Evil, He will have to accept you. The Devil is better than you at looking for ways to twist God’s arm, but he will not succeed. However, I do not assume that you are lost, the Holy Spirit helps you, but you do not understand how He helps you. The Holy Spirit works with the Scriptures when you do not distort His message in the Scriptures, like many other Christians who get carried away by “the error of the lawless” and fall from the secure place of putting the law in their hearts and choose to drop the law in their hearts distorting the Scriptures to their own “destruction”.

Since I too once believed and spewed venom , I immediately forgive you and pray that someday you will come to believe in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. One thing I have never done and that is play God by judging my fellow man telling them that they have lost their eternal inheritance. That would be very dangerous ground to stand on, one that your false prophet was guilty of doing. I suspect you are getting your cue from her writings. What a shame.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34 NIV)​

He says nothing about eliminating the law that reveals our sin He wrote with His own finger, how it comes to us is different, no one will have to teach it because everyone will know Him. The bishops of Rome no longer teach us from a language to which they only have access, today everyone has a Bible and can read the ten commandments in their own language for the Holy Spirit to remind them of the sins they need Jesus to help them with as our High Priest in the daily of the heavenly temple to give us another chance, and another till we are like Jesus to stand with Jesus. A clear distortion of the Scriptures that according to Peter you do to your own “destruction”.

What Jeremiah's prophecy is telling us the new covenant would not be like the old one. It does not tell us it would be the same. Why would God have Jeremiah write all of that if it were going to be the same? Whether written in the book of the law or on the fleshy part of our hearts you have proclaimed it is the same. I am sorry you have to come to that conclusion to try to justify keeping a ritual cday that was given only to one nation. Israel failed miserably trying to be observant of all the rules of that covenant. Adventists are not able to even keep ten of the 613 laws, especially the fourth one. Are you able to go for twenty four hours without thinking your own thoughts? Isaiah 58 Why is it you thump the laws of the Sinai covenant and ignore all but fourteen of them? Fourteen because your prophet tells you you have to tithe and not eat certain foods and the two commands to love God and your fellow man. Did you forget the last one when you allowed your fingers to write your parasitical post to me?

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16b NIV)​

God is love and He wrote with His own finger the ten commandments. I admit that Jesus himself had more to say than the minimal love demanded in the ten commandments, but Jesus does not want less than the ten commandments He wrote with His own finger.

You think you know what love is, when it is God alone who is qualified to define what love is. I have provided Scriptural evidence that shows that the ten commandments are God’s minimalist definition of love; you are just not listening.

Why is it you SDAs think because God used His finger to write something that it is more relevant than what He dictated to Moses? What He dictated to Moses contained the two greatest commands in all of scripture. They are found in Deut and Lev and are the love commands of the Sinai covenant.

I have given you the correct view of Paul’s message in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures. You refuse to see my reading of it and prefer your own interpretation in contradiction to the rest of the Scriptures.

You have given me nothing. Most of the questions I have asked have been ignored or glossed over. This time I have them in blue color so you have no excuse not to answer them. I present you with scripture which you tell me are too hard to understand because even Peter said so.

You think Jesus is in harmony with your view by distorting what the word “fulfill” means. It does not mean the removal of the law when fulfilled, it does mean it remains when fulfilled.

I went to the dictionary to find the meaning of fulfil. It didn't come from the seat of my pants. The definition is in full harmony with the writings of Paul concerning the Law. You have to distort Paul's writings in order to support your false belief that there is still a weekly Sabbath to observe.

You realize that you distort Paul’s words to contradict Jesus in this below passage and you deal with it by distorting the meaning of the word “fulfill” in Jesus message.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

I have a Jesus that keeps His word. You have a Jesus that has failed to keep His word. He came to fulfill the prophecies concerning His coming and fulfil the Sinai covenant. He did both in toto. Your theory has Jesus doing only part of His job while here on this Earth. According to you Jesus didn't introduce the new covenant. According to you He couldn't because He didn't fulfil the old one. He shed His blood for naught according to you.
Matt26:28 CJB
For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven.

The context itself shows that Jesus is not removing the commandments because heaven and earth have not disappeared

Sorry Jorge, that was a metaphor and the word "till" tell us it is when Jesus fulfilled the old covenant at the Cross.

and what Jesus is doing is obeying the commandments by dying for our sins as our creator, ultimately responsible for our actions even though He is without sin. In modern terms, if I “fulfill” the transit laws, I get a lower price on my insurance premium, but it does not end the ten commandments for others whose disobedience will lead to higher insurance premiums for them. We can focus your distortion of Jesus’ message above on a word: “fulfill”. Below is the same Greek word translated above as “fulfill”, used in a context where Paul clearly does not end the word of God, by John is the last book in our Bibles written. Jesus' message is clear, it is your interpretation of Paul that is wrong, just as Peter "forewarned" us about “the error of the lawless”, who set aside God's minimalist definition of love to boast of their own definition when the ten commandments clearly stay till heaven and earth disappears and show you stay a slave to sin when the Holy Spirit gives power to fulfill the least ten commandments and more.

Your allegory doesn't fit the true picture. The Sinai covenant was temporary. Israel broke it and all of the laws of that covenant are mere history. The new covenant has taken the place of the Sinai covenant and I defy you to find one place in our new covenant that tells us we have to keep days.

If I “fulfill” all transit laws, does that mean that others do not have to obey the transit laws? A clear distortion in your mind of the use of that word. It does mean that my insurance will be lower than those who do not obey the laws and get ticketed for not obeying the law.

I have no idea what you are getting at with your statement. Transient means temporary. The ten commandments, part of the Sinai covenant, were temporary. The whole Sinai covenant was temporary and ended when the new and better covenant of Jesus Christ replaced it at Calvary.

The only difference with the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit helps by putting the law in our hearts instead of us taking on that responsibility of keeping the law in our hearts.

Have you read the New Testament (covenant)? How could you make such a statement? How could I ever have any confidence in believing what you write when you make statements like that?

Does that mean that you recognize that there is a love for the world that gains you nothing? Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. (1 John 2:15 NIV)

It is a man made usage of the true meaning of Love. It isn't really love and you should know that.

Is this the love you boast about? A love defined by the world, that will gain you nothing, instead of God’s definition?

That is an arrogant question. I have tried to be civil to you taking your snide remarks and questions, but this one is about over the top. I ask you to stop this kind of treatment.

I have already posted that the ten commandments are God’s minimalist definition of love. Confessed by an expert in the law and confirmed by Jesus.

Just because you have already posted such does not make it true.

Minimalist? I do believe in past posts you have explained that the ten are the expression of God's character. Now they are minimal?

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28 NIV)​

This expert in the law summarized the ten commandments as love for God and neighbor and Jesus confirmed his understanding of the law, you however want a love that does not obey the ten commandments.

No He did not. the love commandments are found in the book of the Law in Lev and Deut. not in the ten commandments.

It follows from my reading of Peter. How would you explain how you distort the Scriptures to your own “destruction”? There is more to learn about the Sabbath when we are not distracted by “the error of the lawless,” distorting Paul’s message, when he clearly expects us to obey the law more now than before.

Certainly not your own definition of love, shown deficient by God’s true definition of love.

Unfortunately, expected, the closer you are to the Scriptures, the narrower the way:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14 NIV)​

Your lawless interpretation of love is a broad road that leads to destruction.

More false rhetoric. I have never given my own interpretation of love. Everything I write about love comes from scripture. Love is the great theme of the New Testament. It is evident that you have not been studying scripture. Ellen White had a distorted view of love also.

The ten commandments are the least show of love God demands,

There is nothing in the ten commandments that indicate they are about love.

He certainly has demanded more than the ten commandments with the Help of the Holy Spirit, but He does not want less than the ten commandments. Paul tells us the law is good, but you want to disobey it and that is a broad road that leads to destruction. Thanks to Jesus as our High Priest and the constant help of the Holy Spirit putting the law in my heart, I can obey these ten commandments and more. That is a narrow road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Jesus has provided a way for us to obey the law with the Help of the Holy Spirit placing the law in our hearts and not by eliminating the law from our hearts as you teach to your own “destruction”.

Pure bunk and not worthy of my time to answer.

​

 

[guevaraj]

The first thing you write is an insult to me. You know I do not believe there is a day that must be kept yet you ignore my feelings.

Brother, if I tried to please people, I could not serve God:

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:10-12 NIV)​

The Lord knows that you need to listen to Him, because you have weakened your heart to sin. I call out your sin in God’s effort to bring you back to obedience. I want to help, let's put aside the big picture for now and concentrate on what the Holy Spirit actually gave you before you wrongly assumed you can ignore the ten commandments. If it began in a similar way to my experience, the Holy Spirit convicted you of some reading in the Scriptures as different from what the church taught you. I think you later went ahead of the Holy Spirit adapting and inventing the simplest explanations around the conviction to highlight its importance. Listening to your rhetoric, I think the passage that the Holy Spirit convicted you on was this:

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:9-12 NIV)​

You Incorrectly assumed that the Father's commandments were the ten commandments given in Sinai, importantly to correct your mistake, when Israel heard His voice and Moses saw His form writing with His own finger. The assumption that the finger writing the ten commandments was the finger of the Father was the error that derailed you, the Scriptures reveal that these ten commandments belong to Jesus and are not the Father's commandments that allow Jesus to take our place as our creator.

John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:35-40 NIV)​

Before the baptism of Jesus by John, the Father had not been heard or seen by any human being. That makes the ten commandments seen written by His finger, Jesus' commandments, then later amplified by Jesus with additional help from the Holy Spirit as even more demanding in our love for God and neighbor. This ten are not the Father’s commandments that allowed Jesus to take our place as our creator, that is part of the Father's commandments we have not seen, part of a larger set of commandments too glorious for us in our fallen state to aspire to fulfill till we are glorified with new bodies.

“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:25-28 NIV)​

Was John’s revelation that the Father's commandments are different from Jesus' commandments the first conviction of the Holy Spirit or was there another passage from the Scriptures? What began your own personal divergence from the understanding of our church, what did you read in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit convicted you was different from what the church taught you? I am not interested in everything you reject now; I want to know that first passage of the Scriptures that began your divergent journey. What the Holy Spirit really convicted you on and not the rest you added to it. As demanded, I will answer your statements in blue below.

Why would God have Jeremiah write all of that if it were going to be the same?

God has provided more help with the Holy Spirit putting the law in our hearts than we having to take on that responsibility, because not doing so led to disobedience and God eliminated the problem with extra help from the Holy Spirit, if you do not distort the Scriptures so that the Holy Spirit's reminder of the commandments have no effect on your heart.

Are you able to go for twenty four hours without thinking your own thoughts? Isaiah 58 Why is it you thump the laws of the Sinai covenant and ignore all but fourteen of them?

They were a shadow of the reality we now have in Jesus; they have not been removed; They have taken their true form with Jesus as our heavenly High Priest in the actual temple in heaven, where Jesus intercedes for our sins to forgive us when we confess them. To need Jesus’s daily temple services the Holy Spirit helps to convict you of sin by reminding you of the commandments, without you having to remind yourself of the commandments, assuming you do not distort the Scriptures to eliminate the law that exposes sin in your heart and in doing so you have no reason to need Jesus' daily service any more to repent of those sins, making Jesus’ current ministry in the heavenly temple irrelevant to you.

Did you forget the last one when you allowed your fingers to write your parasitical post to me?

The Lord requires me to point out your sin, sin that you ignore because of your fall into “the error of the lawless” that Peter forewarned us by distorting Paul’s words, when Paul reveals that the purpose of the law is to expose the sin you ignore by continuing to disobey Jesus’ commandments.

Why is it you SDAs think because God used His finger to write something that it is more relevant than what He dictated to Moses?

It is more personal to receive a direct message than to transmit it through a third party.

How could you make such a statement? How could I ever have any confidence in believing what you write when you make statements like that?

Jesus made the same statement:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

Part of “until everything is accomplished” is that He will make a new heaven and a new earth, making the old disappear.

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Revelation 21:1 NIV)​

Therefore, I repeat: the only difference with the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit helps more by putting the law in our hearts instead of us taking on that responsibility of keeping the law in our hearts. The problem with Israel disobeying the law was that they did not keep the law in their hearts, so God gave that responsibility to the Holy Spirit, if you do not distort the Scriptures with “the error of the lawless”, rendering the Holy Spirits reminder of no effect in your heart. Listen to Paul explain the holy, righteous and good spiritual purpose of the commandments to expose sin as utterly sinful. Instead of dealing with sin by confessing it to Jesus’ daily ministry in the heavenly temple as our High Priest, learned through the shadow service of the Jews with the animal sacrifices, you remove the commandments from the heart, so that you have separated the law from the heart infinitely worse than the Jews ever did by forgetting to keep the law close to their hearts.

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. (Romans 7:10-16 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Bob S]

Brother, if I tried to please people, I could not serve God:

Where did you get that idea? you have me going to Hell because I don't agree with your belief system. I was in your belief system for 40 years Jorge. I know all about what you believe and probably a lot more because I was able to recognize and escape all the falsehood. I know your intentions are good. The fact is that what you have written is insulting and I would take it to be insulting if I didn't know the source behind what you have written.

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God?

It is hard to win the approval of people when all you have to offer is false dogma.

Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Now where did that idea come from. You certainly cannot win souls to Jesus by telling them they are bound to Hell.
​

I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:10-12 NIV)​

What are you trying to tell us? Are you getting your gospel the same way Paul did? That would be hard to believe since what you believe does not correspond to Paul's writings.

The Lord knows that you need to listen to Him, because you have weakened your heart to sin. I call out your sin in God’s effort to bring you back to obedience. I want to help, let's put aside the big picture for now and concentrate on what the Holy Spirit actually gave you before you wrongly assumed you can ignore the ten commandments. If it began in a similar way to my experience, the Holy Spirit convicted you of some reading in the Scriptures as different from what the church taught you. I think you later went ahead of the Holy Spirit adapting and inventing the simplest explanations around the conviction to highlight its importance. Listening to your rhetoric, I think the passage that the Holy Spirit convicted you on was this:

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:9-12 NIV)​

My ears, heart and eyes are open to Jesus and his Word. Just because you have bought into Adventism hook, line and sinker doesn't make it true.

You Incorrectly assumed that the Father's commandments were the ten commandments given in Sinai, importantly to correct your mistake, when Israel heard His voice and Moses saw His form writing with His own finger. The assumption that the finger writing the ten commandments was the finger of the Father was the error that derailed you, the Scriptures reveal that these ten commandments belong to Jesus and are not the Father's commandments that allow Jesus to take our place as our creator.

Jesus lived as a Jew under the Sinai covenant. Ex 19:5-6 doesn't state that the Word was to give the children of Israel the covenant. We have to assume that it was God the Father that told Moses about the covenant He was about to give Israel. Jesus came to fulfill the requirements of that covenant. Matt 5:17. In Jn 15 Jesus is telling us He kept the commands of that covenant. He then asks us to keep His commands. We are to love others as He loves us. This is how we KNOW we belong to the truth........believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. 1Jn3:19 through 24

John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:35-40 NIV)

I chose to adhere to a false bunch of doctrines because I was taught to believe I was under the ten commandments. I didn't know better then just as you do not know better. The writings of Paul are not rantings in the wind. When He writes that the ten commandments have been done away and they are no longer our guide then his writings override all that Adventism taught on the subject. 2Cor3:6-11. When you come to that realization you too will live for Christ in the way He has prepared and not what some self made false prophet wrote.

Before the baptism of Jesus by John, the Father had not been heard or seen by any human being. That makes the ten commandments seen written by His finger, Jesus' commandments, then later amplified by Jesus with additional help from the Holy Spirit as even more demanding in our love for God and neighbor. This ten are not the Father’s commandments that allowed Jesus to take our place as our creator, that is part of the Father's commandments we have not seen, part of a larger set of commandments too glorious for us in our fallen state to aspire to fulfill till we are glorified with new bodies.

That is the biggest bunch of bologna I have read in a long time.

“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” (John 16:25-28 NIV)​

Was John’s revelation that the Father's commandments are different from Jesus' commandments the first conviction of the Holy Spirit or was there another passage from the Scriptures? What began your own personal divergence from the understanding of our church, what did you read in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit convicted you was different from what the church taught you?

First of all no church taught me anything about the two covenants. The SDA church teaches that we are under the Sinai covenant's ten commandments. All the remainder of the covenant has been abolished with the exception of the tithing and meat laws. Jesus didn't teach this, in fact He taught that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the Sinai covenant until all is fulfilled. If Jesus didn't fulfil the Sinai covenant like He said He would "17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them." then you are really walking on thin ice telling others we must keep just the ten or go to Hell because not one jot nor one tittle can be taken away. You have to keep all the law. I hope you realize what that means. The fact is that all the law has been fulfilled and Jesus has ushered in the new covenant. Jesus is our High Priest and that is a change in the priesthood and where there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the law. Heb7:12. Yes, brother the law has been changed. Gentiles were never asked to be under the Sinai covenant. Why would you feel the need to put us under what God never expected.

I am not interested in everything you reject now;

That is what I fear. I fear that all I have to offer you will just cull and not look into. You have been programmed to believe the SDAchurch is the only true church and never listen to what anyone tells you that is different. If you are not interested than why did you even bother to ask me the following? "What began your own personal divergence from the understanding of our church, what did you read in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit convicted you was different from what the church taught you?" Now I have told you some of the reasons. Did I just waste my time?

I want to know that first passage of the Scriptures that began your divergent journey.

Why, you just explained that you are not interested. I just hope I am completely wrong and you really are interested. It seems like all the posts I have written in the past still have you sending me to Hell.

I will share with you one of my favorite verses once again. These verses tell me not to worry about those who would put me under the law, people like you and your church.
Gal3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What you are endeavoring to do is put your fellow man under the same law that Paul so eloquently wrote that we are not under. If we yield to your kind of belief we are just as foolish as the Galatians were.

My second set of verses are found in 1Jn3 and they tell me I am of the truth if I believe in my Savior Jesus Christ and obey His command to love others as He loves us. Her are the verses: 1Jn3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. That my friend is what is written on our hearts. Love covers all commands that has to do with morality not just the nine of the ten commandments. My faith has so much more to fulfil than just the nine of the ten commandments. If you will notice almost all of the ritual commands of the Sinai covenant have no value in new covenant Christianity and that includes the Sabbath of the now defunct ten commandments and the remainder of the Law that Paul wrote to the Galatians about.

What the Holy Spirit really convicted you on and not the rest you added to it. As demanded, I will answer your statements in blue below.

God has provided more help with the Holy Spirit putting the law in our hearts than we having to take on that responsibility, because not doing so led to disobedience and God eliminated the problem with extra help from the Holy Spirit, if you do not distort the Scriptures so that the Holy Spirit's reminder of the commandments have no effect on your heart.

They were a shadow of the reality we now have in Jesus; they have not been removed; They have taken their true form with Jesus as our heavenly High Priest in the actual temple in heaven, where Jesus intercedes for our sins to forgive us when we confess them. To need Jesus’s daily temple services the Holy Spirit helps to convict you of sin by reminding you of the commandments, without you having to remind yourself of the commandments, assuming you do not distort the Scriptures to eliminate the law that exposes sin in your heart and in doing so you have no reason to need Jesus' daily service any more to repent of those sins, making Jesus’ current ministry in the heavenly temple irrelevant to you.

The Lord requires me to point out your sin, sin that you ignore because of your fall into “the error of the lawless” that Peter forewarned us by distorting Paul’s words, when Paul reveals that the purpose of the law is to expose the sin you ignore by continuing to disobey Jesus’ commandments.

It is more personal to receive a direct message than to transmit it through a third party.

Jesus made the same statement:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

Part of “until everything is accomplished” is that He will make a new heaven and a new earth, making the old disappear.

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Revelation 21:1 NIV)​

Therefore, I repeat: the only difference with the new covenant is that the Holy Spirit helps more by putting the law in our hearts instead of us taking on that responsibility of keeping the law in our hearts. The problem with Israel disobeying the law was that they did not keep the law in their hearts, so God gave that responsibility to the Holy Spirit, if you do not distort the Scriptures with “the error of the lawless”, rendering the Holy Spirits reminder of no effect in your heart. Listen to Paul explain the holy, righteous and good spiritual purpose of the commandments to expose sin as utterly sinful. Instead of dealing with sin by confessing it to Jesus’ daily ministry in the heavenly temple as our High Priest, learned through the shadow service of the Jews with the animal sacrifices, you remove the commandments from the heart, so that you have separated the law from the heart infinitely worse than the Jews ever did by forgetting to keep the law close to their hearts.

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. (Romans 7:10-16 NIV)​

Now listen and listen good. I am not going to go back over this again. You quote Mat5 where Jesus said: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." If you really believe that Jesus was using Heaven and Earth passing not a metaphor but an actual event then you have to accept that you are under the same laws that Jesus was under. Not only was Jesus under the ten commandments, he was under the remainder of the law. He even talked about an eye for an eye and love thy neighbor both from the book of the law dictated by God and hand written by Moses. You are obligated to observe the whole Law. I hope you put that in your pipe and smoke it for a spell. And you wonder why I left Adventism? I wonder why I stayed so long. I have many more things I could add to the conversation that prove that Adventism is not the remnant and doesn't even come close. You can call yourselves anything you please, but when the rubber hits the road you better be prepared to back up what you have been taught. You are in my prayers brother.

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

Sorry Jorge, that was a metaphor and the word "till" tell us it is when Jesus fulfilled the old covenant at the Cross.

By what hermeneutical method do you conclude that it is a metaphor?

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

The SDA church spends millions and more millions trying to harvest souls into their churches. Very few are persuaded to join and even when they do many of them go out the back door. So much for the Sabbath being on our hearts.

As in "few there be that find it?"

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

It seems like all the posts I have written in the past still have you sending me to Hell.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but ask why you care what people you don't even know say about your final destination?

 

[Bob S]

By what hermeneutical method do you conclude that it is a metaphor?

After reading your other posts I see you have nothing to offer and your agenda is only to put me on the defence. I have better things to accomplish and I stand by my posts.

Are you a SDA?

 

[Dare 2 B A Daniel]

After reading your other posts I see you have nothing to offer and your agenda is only to put me on the defence. I have better things to accomplish and I stand by my posts.

Are you a SDA?

As long as we are talking about other posts and agendas, I would point out that you seem to have virtually (if not literally) no other purpose on the entire forum site but to impugn the Seventh-day Adventist church and any and all others who might venture to defend its existence.

I am a Protestant (in favor of testing doctrine).