The Ten Commandments and God's Finger

eleos1954

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OK. Does it really matter? Whose salvation is in jeopardy? This is merely an academic discussion, and not that important.

The OP wasn't about salvation ... I think truth is important ... perhaps you don't ... I think it's significant that the Lord wrote His law Himself ... if you consider it not so ... well alrighty then ;o)
 
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Bob S

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Yes, I read verse one. I read the complete chapter, so let's put that to rest. To all of you who have come to the conclusion that it was God who wrote the second set you need to read the following part of the OP. Ex34:27 The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. 28 He (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The chapter was confusing to me, but verse 34 was compelling. Moses was there forty day and nights. The verse says it was Moses that wrote on the stones. Maybe God changed His mind like he did when He saw the Israelites making the golden calf. God told Moses he was going to destroy them. Moses came to the Israelites rescue and it says: Moses implored the Lord his God....
10 Now let me alone, so that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; and of you I will make a great nation.”

11 But Moses implored the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people.... 14 And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.



I'd say more likely the symbolism was the people had broke covenant with God ... and in doing so ... Moses breaking the tablets was symbolic of them breaking the covenant (the first set) that contained the law.
Your opinion is just as good as anyone's. When we get to Heaven we will have a lot of questions. I surely cannot say that verse one of chapter34 is wrong just as all of you that tell me I am wrong for going to verses 27 and 28 shouldn't tell me that I am wrong or that the verses are wrong. They both have a story to tell and as I wrote, verses 27-28 seem compelling to me.

P. S. To those of you who adamantly tell us in other OPs that God doesn't change, like in changing the laws he gives us to live under, I submit to you that He did change His mind. So, if He changed His mind about one thing it stands to reason that He changed His mind concerning the Sinai and new covenant and the new covenant isn't the old one tweaked and warmed over.

Have a great day everyone.
 
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eleos1954

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Yes, I read verse one. I read the complete chapter, so let's put that to rest. To all of you who have come to the conclusion that it was God who wrote the second set you need to read the following part of the OP. Ex34:27 The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. 28 He (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The chapter was confusing to me, but verse 34 was compelling. Moses was there forty day and nights. The verse says it was Moses that wrote on the stones. Maybe God changed His mind like he did when He saw the Israelites making the golden calf. God told Moses he was going to destroy them. Moses came to the Israelites rescue and it says: Moses implored the Lord his God....
10 Now let me alone, so that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; and of you I will make a great nation.”

11 But Moses implored the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people.... 14 And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.




Your opinion is just as good as anyone's. When we get to Heaven we will have a lot of questions. I surely cannot say that verse one of chapter34 is wrong just as all of you that tell me I am wrong for going to verses 27 and 28 shouldn't tell me that I am wrong or that the verses are wrong. They both have a story to tell and as I wrote, verses 27-28 seem compelling to me.

P. S. To those of you who adamantly tell us in other OPs that God doesn't change, like in changing the laws he gives us to live under, I submit to you that He did change His mind. So, if He changed His mind about one thing it stands to reason that He changed His mind concerning the Sinai and new covenant and the new covenant isn't the old one tweaked and warmed over.

Have a great day everyone.

well ... it's term's words used ... I look at it this way.

Exodus 33:19

19“I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name— the LORD— before you. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

He says He don't change?

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

The seeming changing of God's mind in this and in other situations makes people wonder if God is wavering in His word. But this is not the case. In the situation with Moses God was angry because the people had rejected Him in favor of an idol. His desire to destroy them was not unalterable. Moses' intercession on behalf of the people kept them from being destroyed. From humanity's point of view God's mind was changed but God had known all along what would happen. Moses prayed for mercy and God answered his prayer.

God is all-knowing, He has no reason to change His mind ... He knows what is going to happen all the time.

Did God know they would break covenant with Him? Yes ... Did He know Moses would pray for mercy? Yes

Then He didn't change His mind He showed mercy and knew before hand that's what He would do.
 
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Bob S

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Yes, I read (and reread) the OP and the OP is correct, according to Gods Word.
Correct? Well, not according to the remainder of your post.

God wrote the 10 ... both sets ... Himself ... on stone tablets.

Deuteronomy 4

13He (the Lord) declared to you His (the Lord) covenant, which He (the Lord) commanded you to follow—the Ten Commandments that He (the Lord) wrote on two tablets of stone.
That statement doesn't prove anything about the second set.

Deuteronomy 10:2

I (the Lord) will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the ark."
That statement would contradict Ex34:27-28 and what I seem to think.

Exodus 32

15Then Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.
That statement again doesn't prove that it was not Moses who wrote the second set

Deuteronomy 4

13He (the Lord) declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to follow—the Ten Commandments that He (the Lord) wrote on two tablets of stone. 14At that time the LORD commanded me (moses) to teach you the statutes and ordinances you are to follow in the land into which you are crossing to possess.
Another for God doing the writing.

"At that time ..." The 10 - written by God ... and during that same time period (40 days) ... moses wrote down the statues and ordinances in a book.
I don't believe Ex chapter 34 tells us this.

24When Moses had finished writing in a book the words of this law (statues & ordinances) from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: 26 “Take this Book (not tablets) of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you.
That doesn't tell us where he finished them.

The 10 that the Lord himself wrote on the tablets of stone were put in the ark.

Pretty significant ... the 10 written by God in stone (not changeable) placed in the ark of THE covenant (under the mercy seat)

The hand written (statues & ordinances) ... not put IN the ark (of THE .. His Covenant) not UNDER the mercy seat ... but outside of it.

The 10 Commandments (on stone, written by God unchangeable) ... the statues & ordinances written in a book were later done away with (changeable).
All of the laws of the Sinai covenant were done away. Paul wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 that the 10 commandments were done away. KJV

People who are passing around God did not write the 10 Commandments Himself are the ones telling misnomers
I presume you are referring to me and all I ask is that you explain Ex 34:27-28 and then tell me I am telling misnomers.

When you wrote "The 10 Commandments (on stone, written by God unchangeable) ... the statues & ordinances written in a book were later done away with (changeable)." the first part is a misnomer according to Paul's writing in 2Cor3. Explain how you differ with Paul. You will not find one verse that Paul wrote that separated the Law of the Sinai covenant as having two parts. Read Gal 3:19 and Eph 2:15. If Paul was only referring to the commands dictated to Moses by God then I am sure he would have told us. He did tell us that the 10 were done away.

Ex34:27 The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. 28 He was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
 
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Bob S

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well ... it's term's words used ... I look at it this way.

Exodus 33:19

19“I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name— the LORD— before you. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Changed His mind .... or showed mercy and compassion? Are they the same thing?
Both, don't second guess what scripture indicates. He made up His mind to slay the Israelites, warned Moses of His intentions and Moses compelled God to change His mind.

He says He don't change?

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Seems He don't consider showing mercy and compassion as changing His mind.

The seeming changing of God's mind in this and in other situations makes people wonder if God is wavering in His word. But this is not the case. In the situation with Moses God was angry because the people had rejected Him in favor of an idol. His desire to destroy them was not unalterable. Moses' intercession on behalf of the people kept them from being destroyed. From humanity's point of view God's mind was changed but God had known all along what would happen. Moses prayed for mercy and God answered his prayer.

God is all-knowing, He has no reason to change His mind ... He knows what is going to happen.

Did God know they would break covenant with Him? Yes ...
What it really shows is that even God gets angry, but He will even listen to His sinful children when in His anger.
Could it be that God when He said He doesn't change that he doesn't grow older or some other reason for saying what He said? God changed His mind period. No excuse is acceptable. Scripture is very plain on the subject.
 
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eleos1954

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Correct? Well, not according to the remainder of your post.

That statement doesn't prove anything about the second set.


That statement would contradict Ex34:27-28 and what I seem to think.

Exodus 32


That statement again doesn't prove that it was not Moses who wrote the second set

Deuteronomy 4


Another for God doing the writing.

I don't believe Ex chapter 34 tells us this.


That doesn't tell us where he finished them.

All of the laws of the Sinai covenant were done away. Paul wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 that the 10 commandments were done away. KJV


I presume you are referring to me and all I ask is that you explain Ex 34:27-28 and then tell me I am telling misnomers.

When you wrote "The 10 Commandments (on stone, written by God unchangeable) ... the statues & ordinances written in a book were later done away with (changeable)." the first part is a misnomer according to Paul's writing in 2Cor3. Explain how you differ with Paul. You will not find one verse that Paul wrote that separated the Law of the Sinai covenant as having two parts. Read Gal 3:19 and Eph 2:15. If Paul was only referring to the commands dictated to Moses by God then I am sure he would have told us. He did tell us that the 10 were done away.

Ex34:27 The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. 28 He was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Exodus 31:18
When the LORD had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
 
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AlexDTX

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The OP wasn't about salvation ... I think truth is important ... perhaps you don't ... I think it's significant that the Lord wrote His law Himself ... if you consider it not so ... well alrighty then ;o)
I wish to speak plainly to you Eleos1954. When I told you to talk to the OP, I meant I had no further interest in the conversation. But you continued pressing the issue. I finally got tired of it and reported you for harassing me. However, after the fact, I contacted the mods and asked to have my report withdrawn. You apparently did not understand my hint to drop the subject, to which I should have simply said so. I am tired of people making reports without following Matt 18 to speak to one's brother (or sister) first to reconcile, instead they say nothing and simply make the report. I will not do that.

Forgive me for both not responding forthrightly (I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around here) and for being hasty in filing a report.
 
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klutedavid

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well ... it's term's words used ... I look at it this way.

Exodus 33:19

19“I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name— the LORD— before you. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

He says He don't change?

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

The seeming changing of God's mind in this and in other situations makes people wonder if God is wavering in His word. But this is not the case. In the situation with Moses God was angry because the people had rejected Him in favor of an idol. His desire to destroy them was not unalterable. Moses' intercession on behalf of the people kept them from being destroyed. From humanity's point of view God's mind was changed but God had known all along what would happen. Moses prayed for mercy and God answered his prayer.

God is all-knowing, He has no reason to change His mind ... He knows what is going to happen all the time.

Did God know they would break covenant with Him? Yes ... Did He know Moses would pray for mercy? Yes

Then He didn't change His mind He showed mercy and knew before hand that's what He would do.
God does not change but what He demands from His people certainly changes.

Did God command Abraham to be circumcised?

Did God command that Israel was to be circumcised?

Does God command Gentiles to be circumcised?
 
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JackRT

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One thing that cannot be denied is that there are three versions of the ten commandments (Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21). Two are similar, but not exactly so, while the third is almost completely different than the other two. We are looking here at a clear contradiction. It is also ironic that the only one of the three to self identify as "the ten commandments" is the one so different from the other two. There is a solution but it demands thinking outside of the box and that is problematic for most traditional Christians.
 
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eleos1954

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I wish to speak plainly to you Eleos1954. When I told you to talk to the OP, I meant I had no further interest in the conversation. But you continued pressing the issue. I finally got tired of it and reported you for harassing me. However, after the fact, I contacted the mods and asked to have my report withdrawn. You apparently did not understand my hint to drop the subject, to which I should have simply said so. I am tired of people making reports without following Matt 18 to speak to one's brother (or sister) first to reconcile, instead they say nothing and simply make the report. I will not do that.

Forgive me for both not responding forthrightly (I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around here) and for being hasty in filing a report.

well ... I certainly did not intend ... nor did I at all understand you were "hinting" about dropping the conversation. And I thought that's what were were doing ... having conversation ....

It's ok ... texting a lot of times things get misunderstood.

Do you want me to block you so you don't see my posts?

You made some good points ... and was going to talk further ... but guess not best to do so.

God Bless.
 
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AlexDTX

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well ... I certainly did not intend ... nor did I at all understand you were "hinting" about dropping the conversation. And I thought that's what were were doing ... having conversation ....

It's ok ... texting a lot of times things get misunderstood.

Do you want me to block you so you don't see my posts?

You made some good points ... and was going to talk further ... but guess not best to do so.

God Bless.
No, I don't want you to block me, nor would I block you. I know your intentions was dialogue and conversation. I am just frustrated with CF because so many people are so easily offended and I have been on the receiving end of complaints. Now, of course, I can get in trouble simply because I am telling you since mentioning disciplinary actions are forbidden in the rules. Honestly, I think I just need to not participate for a while then come back at a later time.
 
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eleos1954

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Both, don't second guess what scripture indicates. He made up His mind to slay the Israelites, warned Moses of His intentions and Moses compelled God to change His mind.


What it really shows is that even God gets angry, but He will even listen to His sinful children when in His anger.
Could it be that God when He said He doesn't change that he doesn't grow older or some other reason for saying what He said? God changed His mind period. No excuse is acceptable. Scripture is very plain on the subject.

Did some thinking about your posts and some scripture research ... He does not change .... that being in regard to His character ... but regarding His Law ... the 10 ... it mirrors His character ... so no ... He did not do away with His laws (the 10). (as you referred Him to changing His mind on in another post)

character --
the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual (in this case God)

Romans 7

12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

God is Holy (set apart), His law is holy (set apart)

He didn't do away with the law (the 10) ... else He would be denying His own character. Character of His Justice.

Answers prayers, shows mercy. Character of His Love.

All of it is within His character and that never changes.

He is all-powerful and can do anything that pleases Him, but His actions will always be in accord with the His character

Thanks for the conversation ... made me revisit some things I needed to ;o)
 
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eleos1954

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No, I don't want you to block me, nor would I block you. I know your intentions was dialogue and conversation. I am just frustrated with CF because so many people are so easily offended and I have been on the receiving end of complaints. Now, of course, I can get in trouble simply because I am telling you since mentioning disciplinary actions are forbidden in the rules. Honestly, I think I just need to not participate for a while then come back at a later time.

well ... I would hope not ... simply misunderstandings ... we are a passionate bunch ... and many times don't agree on scripture interpretations and other things ;o) ... agree to disagree ... sometimes we forget to state that. No worries here my friend ;o) and I do mean friend ;o)
 
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AlexDTX

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well ... I would hope not ... simply misunderstandings ... we are a passionate bunch ... and many times don't agree on scripture interpretations and other things ;o) ... agree to disagree ... sometimes we forget to state that. No worries here my friend ;o) and I do mean friend ;o)
Thank you. I appreciate it.
 
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Bob S

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Did some thinking about your posts and some scripture research ... He does not change .... that being in regard to His character ... but regarding His Law ... the 10 ... it mirrors His character
that is a completely false statement eleos. Someone started the now false cliche and has a bunch of people using the saying. Again, it is a false statement. We cannot comprehend the character of God. Telling people that those eight thou shalt not laws and two other laws, one dealing with parents which God doesn't have and one ritual law add up to his character is bologna. The beatitudes would be a great start if you are in the comparison game.

Now back to whether God didn't or did change His mind. The account of the golden calf says that He did and I will go with the story and not your opinion. So goes with what Paul wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 about the 10 commandments being done away. Did you read that account?

... so no ... He did not do away with His laws (the 10). (as you referred Him to changing His mind on in another post)
Actually God didn't have to change His mind by doing away with the 10. Ever hear of the Plan of Salvation, the one planned before the foundation of the Earth? God planned all of the events throughout the Bible. He planned to send Jesus to do all He did for mankind. He planned for Jesus to ratify the new covenant with His own blood. He is now in Heaven and is our High Priest. For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Heb7:12 Paul wrote of the change in many places. Sure the old covenant laws were Holy and good and we can glean much from al of the laws, but that is not an indicator that Christians are to be under them. Could you be the one that is wrong?



Romans 7

12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

God is Holy (set apart), His law is holy (set apart)

He didn't do away with the law (the 10)
Argue that with Jesus ambassador, Paul

Thanks for the conversation ... made me revisit some things I needed to ;o)
Your welcome and take some advice, start revisiting scripture without your preconceived ideas.
 
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Bob S

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The OP wasn't about salvation ... I think truth is important ... perhaps you don't ... I think it's significant that the Lord wrote His law Himself ... if you consider it not so ... well alrighty then ;o)
God did write it, but the fact is that Moses wrote in verses 27-28 that he wrote the 10 the second tme. Do you deny what he wrote or that he wrote what he did?
 
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eleos1954

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[/QUOTE]="Bob S, post: 74319263, member: 382831"]that is a completely false statement eleos. Someone started the now false cliche and has a bunch of people using the saying. Again, it is a false statement. We cannot comprehend the character of God. Telling people that those eight thou shalt not laws and two other laws, one dealing with parents which God doesn't have and one ritual law add up to his character is bologna. The beatitudes would be a great start if you are in the comparison game.

Now back to whether God didn't or did change His mind. The account of the golden calf says that He did and I will go with the story and not your opinion. So goes with what Paul wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 about the 10 commandments being done away. Did you read that account?


Actually God didn't have to change His mind by doing away with the 10. Ever hear of the Plan of Salvation, the one planned before the foundation of the Earth? God planned all of the events throughout the Bible. He planned to send Jesus to do all He did for mankind. He planned for Jesus to ratify the new covenant with His own blood. He is now in Heaven and is our High Priest. For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Heb7:12 Paul wrote of the change in many places. Sure the old covenant laws were Holy and good and we can glean much from al of the laws, but that is not an indicator that Christians are to be under them. Could you be the one that is wrong?
[/QUOTE]

Argue that with Jesus ambassador, Paul

I don't have to ... Jesus is clear.

Matthew 5:17

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

What law is still in effect that will not disappear until heaven and earth pass away? The 10.

and ... we know ... the only part of the law that indeed changed were the ones related to the ceremonial/laws and ordinances ... the only law left (for mankind) is the 10 ... and Jesus states no way will they be changed, not until heaven and earth pass away.

When studying the life of Jesus everything He taught was based on the 10 commandments. What He did is give us many many details of what those laws mean. He magnified (exalted) the law by what He taught and how He lived His life.

Isaiah 42:41

The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness’ sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.

He is now in Heaven and is our High Priest. For when there is a change in the priesthood"

Yes and that is what is being talked about the change in the earthly priesthood (no longer needed).

Hebrews 7:12

And when the rules for selecting a priest are changed, the Law (of the same) must also be changed.

The law in Hebrews 7:12 is referring to the Mosaic Law (specifically the priesthood), not the 10 commandments. The priesthood changed (the cerimonial/levitical sanctuary services (Levitic priesthood). Jesus became our High Priest ... that was the change in the law.

The context is the priesthood of the levitical sanctuary.

Hebrews 7:11

11Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? 12For when the priesthood is changed, the Law (of the priesthood) must be changed as well.

When Jesus became our High priest there is no longer a need for a earthly sanctuary system.

2 Corinthians 3

3It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets (referring to the 10) of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Hebrews 10: 16


"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (referencing one of the 10)

This man asked Jesus, “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” (Luke 18:18). Jesus answered that the basic starting point was keeping the Commandments, and then He listed five of them: “‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother’” (Luke 18:20).

When we receive Jesus, we are not under the condemnation of the law (the 10) ... He paid our debt ... but the law stands .... without it we don't know what sin is and wouldn't be brought to repentance, which is turning away from sin (transgression of the law) ... His spirit working in our hearts and changing our minds over the course of our lifetime. He helps us to overcome our sin (transgression of the law)

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Your welcome and take some advice, start revisiting scripture without your preconceived ideas.

Could you be the one that is wrong?

And I am sure you will do the same.
 
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eleos1954

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God did write it, but the fact is that Moses wrote in verses 27-28 that he wrote the 10 the second tme. Do you deny what he wrote or that he wrote what he did?

My bible says God wrote the 10 both times Himself.

Exodus 34:1

1Then the LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the originals, and I (the Lord) will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Moses delivered the 2nd set of tablets (blank stone tablets that he - Moses chiseled out), and God wrote on them .... it's very clear.
 
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Bob S

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My bible says God wrote the 10 both times Himself.
I guess your bible doesn't have Ex34:27-28.

Exodus 34:1

1Then the LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the originals, and I (the Lord) will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Moses delivered the 2nd set of tablets (blank stone tablets that he - Moses chiseled out), and God wrote on them .... it's very clear.
Clear as mud when we factor in verses 27-28.
 
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