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The Sun Revolves Around The Earth: Scripture Cannot Lie

FlameAlchemist

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That is not possible.
If you believed the Word of God is true from the beginning, then you would not even have to see the icing on the cake presented in the video link, which totally refutes your claim, with the science evidence that has been suppressed....and so on...

It's completely possible for a point to expand.

Hubble demonstrated multiple times that all galaxies and astronomical objects are moving away from us. Using the redshift of their electromagnetic spectra to determine the distance and speed of remote objects in space, he showed that all objects are moving away from us, and that their speed is proportional to their distance, a feature of metric expansion. Further studies have since shown the expansion to be extremely isotropic and homogeneous, that is, it does not seem to have a special point as a "center", but appears universal and independent of any fixed central point.
 
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Harry3142

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YeshuaSavedMe-

Do you believe in a literal 6-day creation? Do you insist that anyone who claims to be a Christian must also believe in a literal 6-day creation? If so, you've missed the purpose for the creation stories of Genesis entirely.

There is a creation story which precedes those in Genesis by centuries, and the Hebrews for whom Moses wrote the creation stories contained in Genesis would have already been taught that story as fact:

www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/creation.shtml

In this earlier creation story the sun, moon and stars were deities; the surface of the earth was a deity; the atmosphere was a deity; even the other species of animals the people saw around them were representations of deities. The egyptian pantheon of gods and goddesses numbered well over 40 different deities, and the Hebrews had been taught to worship those deities as if they were real.

What Moses needed to do was not give the Hebrews a scientific explanation; he needed to rebut and demythologize what they had already been taught. So he systematically 'stripped' every egyptian deity of its divinity. The sun, moon and stars were merely objects in the heavens which provided light to the people, and nothing more. The surface of the earth and its atmosphere were merely two parts of this planet, and nothing more. The other species of animals were merely other species, and nothing more. The only divinity that they were to recognize as a true deity was invisible, so they could never make an idol of him. He was also over-and-above all that he had created, so no one could say that he was only to be found in a certain temple.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Psalm 19:6
Its rising is from one end of the heavens, And its circuit to the other end of them; And there is nothing hidden from its heat.…

From one end of the heavens to the other. well, there is so much more to the heavens. There are entire galaxies. The sun does not just travel in relation to the earth, but in relation to the center of the Milky Way. The Sun orbits the center of our galaxy. It moves, literally, from one end of the heavens to the other, and back again.

This would also make the sun rise on the center of the galaxy.

So not only did God know the sun "rises" on earth," but that it truly "rises" in relation to the objects at the center of our galaxy.

Astronomers now know that the Sun moves in a gigantic orbit around the center of the Milky Way galaxy; traveling at 600,000 miles an hour it would take the Sun 230 million years to make just one orbit! It also is believed that our galaxy is moving with respect to other galaxies in the Universe. The Sun’s going forth is indeed from one end of the heavens to the other. In any case, there is no way to substantiate the claims that the Bible teaches geocentricity, or that it promotes any other anti-scientific concept.

Here are other galaxies that move in relation to ours, not just spirals:

merging-galaxies_1083_600x450.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Interacting_Galaxy_NGC_6621_(2008-04-24).jpg


Uh-oh Sculley, you've gone and done it now. Your pic proves that those galaxies are actually a giant red alien with green eyes ... (Don't tell me you all can't see that. ;) )
 
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sculleywr

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Uh-oh Sculley, you've gone and done it now. Your pic proves that those galaxies are actually a giant red alien with green eyes ... (Don't tell me you all can't see that. ;) )

Christos Voskresi!

That made me laugh :)
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Geocentricity: Face the Facts | The Copernican Revolution | Evolution
n his useful little book Better Thinking and Reasoning, Ron Tagliapietra gives a good introduction to how one should approach evidence and draw reasonable conclusions. But he unwittingly gives an even better example of how one can be completely misled by starting with erroneous information to reason about. There are two topics in particular, dear to the hearts of secular humanist scientists, which have been used repeatedly to "refute" the Bible—topics on which it is difficult to find genuine, unbiased, undistorted information. Unfortunately most Christians have not taken the trouble to search out the truth in either case, possibly because they have never realized they had been fed red herrings instead of real meat.
Evolution

The prime example is, of course, evolution, which was no more than a dubious hypothesis when Darwin popularized it.

Here we see the great variations in dogs' sizes, their shape, and their ears yet... read more.
Enlarge picture

It has needed to be repeatedly propped up by half-truths, fraud and self-deception—as peddled by Ernst Haeckel, Teilhard de Chardin, Henry Fairfield Osborne, and numerous others—to maintain that status. It is being supported today by refusal to face hard facts of well established science such as the second law of thermodynamics, of informatics, and astounding findings of microbiology.
....


ernican Revolution

It is even more difficult to find the truth when it comes to the second favorite topic, the story of the Copernican revolution. It was such an important milestone in the fight against the Bible that few secular humanists are keen to allow the facts to actually emerge, and all is usually so skillfully disguised by half-truths, ridicule and obfuscation that even reasonably serious scholars like Ron Tagliapietra have been kept from even suspecting the reality. We see the first red herring in the very first sentence of his discussion:
Copernicus is credited with the heliocentric theory. He proposed that the sun is the center of the solar system.
NASA-Solar-System-Space.jpg

Now the solar system is a recent concept which Copernicus never mentioned. Neither did Galileo, Ptolemy, or any of the other players in the drama. The solar system is irrelevant to the discussion. The Bible makes no mention of the solar system. It is a concept which could only be proposed once Newton's theory of gravity made such an idea possible.
The solar system can be thought about, but never actually isolated. One can write equations about it, but nothing absolute can be verified about their conclusions. One can make models of it, but they are deficient models, they ignore the vastly more massive and gravitationally important remainder of the universe.
Biblically it is foolish to talk about the "solar system" as any kind of reality since we know that Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3). To examine the solar system and see how it would work on its own we would have to take that part of creation out of his hands. From a purely "scientific" point of view it might well collapse if it could be removed from the surrounding universe.
One can, however, convince oneself quite easily that in a purely hypothetical mathematical model of the solar system (where the rest of the universe is of necessity ignored completely) the sun would be at its center and the rest of the system, the earth included, would revolve around it.
Why is the irrelevant solar system sneaked in to the Copernican discussion at all?
Copernicus held that the sun was the center of the entire universe, as did Galileo and the rest of the protagonists.
Scientists assuredly do not believe that today. To admit that the heroes of the fight against Biblical inerrancy were wrong would not be good for the cause.
The next and equally popular deception passed off upon us comes in Tagliapietra’s next sentence:
The competing geocentric (or Ptolemaic) theory that the earth is the centre of the solar system.
....
 
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sculleywr

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Let's tackle this piece by piece:

It is even more difficult to find the truth when it comes to the second favorite topic, the story of the Copernican revolution. It was such an important milestone in the fight against the Bible that few secular humanists are keen to allow the facts to actually emerge, and all is usually so skillfully disguised by half-truths, ridicule and obfuscation that even reasonably serious scholars like Ron Tagliapietra have been kept from even suspecting the reality. We see the first red herring in the very first sentence of his discussion:
Copernicus is credited with the heliocentric theory. He proposed that the sun is the center of the solar system.

The red herring is even shoehorning the words "solar system" into Copernicus's theory. Another problem with this is the idea of the heliocentric thought pattern coming from Copernicus.

In actuality, the first recorded records of heliocentrism are in the Jewish Tanakh, which mentions the writings of Job and relates them to the Babylonian astronomical records. The ancient Jews agreed with the Babylonian Astronomical records of a heliocentric universe. They believed that the sun was the center of the universe and that everything orbited around the sun.

Stonehenge is also proof of the belief in a heliocentric universe, as it is basically a big computer to track the location of planets, so that they could know when to celebrate their pagan solstice celebrations.

Eratosthenese (220 BC) used the heliocentric model of the universe (specifically the tilt of the earth) to calculate the circumference of the Earth, coming up with an answer that was correct to within just a handful of meters.

The beginning of the Geocentric belief was with Heraclide, who developed the model you propose. He actually developed the first solar system model:
Heraclides_SS.gif



However, Aristarchus developed the first solar system in the 3rd century BC:
Aristarchus_SS.gif


This model of the universe won the debate, evidenced by the fact that stars wander about the sky, not staying in exactly the same place, but having a central point they are fixed upon.

It was not until Ptolemy came about in the 3rd century AD that the Geocentric model would be resurrected.

The impossibility of the Ptolemaic model can be seen in the following image that shows how a planet would have to orbit, which is NOT what we see:
epicycle_deferent.gif


Such an orbit would be impossible
 
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sculleywr

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continuing with the link YSM posted:
Now the solar system is a recent concept which Copernicus never mentioned. Neither did Galileo, Ptolemy, or any of the other players in the drama. The solar system is irrelevant to the discussion. The Bible makes no mention of the solar system. It is a concept which could only be proposed once Newton's theory of gravity made such an idea possible.

This is incorrect. The concept of a solar system dates back to the 4th century BC, and was part of Copernicus's and Galileo's combined work.

And you would be hard pressed to disprove Newton's theory of gravity. It is pretty much a fact that when things go up, they must come down.
 
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sculleywr

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YSM link will continue to be butchered into the complete nonsense that the link provides:

The solar system can be thought about, but never actually isolated. One can write equations about it, but nothing absolute can be verified about their conclusions. One can make models of it, but they are deficient models, they ignore the vastly more massive and gravitationally important remainder of the universe.

Of course our models are incomplete. There are always going to be things we don't know. But we know exactly how the planets orbit thanks to the Voyager probes launched into a journey towards the rims of the Solar System. We also know it because we have launched the STEREO probes. One follows behind the earth's orbit, while the other goes ahead of the earth. Together, they are taking a panoramic picture of the sun, as well as providing a detailed view of the orbits not only of the planets, but of every asteroid in the system:

STEREO | NASA

These probes are enduring scientific proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe does NOT orbit the earth, but that the planets of the solar system orbit the sun. This is easily seen because these probes are, themselves, in orbit around the sun.
 
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sculleywr

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continuing the detailed analysis of this joke of a paper:
Biblically it is foolish to talk about the "solar system" as any kind of reality since we know that Jesus is "upholding all things by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3). To examine the solar system and see how it would work on its own we would have to take that part of creation out of his hands. From a purely "scientific" point of view it might well collapse if it could be removed from the surrounding universe.

This completely forgets that science is not the ignorance of the Bible. Science, when properly done, is the study of God's creation of the universe, and of the rules that God put in place to govern the universe. It centers on God, because God created those rules of which we speak. The Laws of Thermodynamics were designed by God, as were the laws of Special and General Relativity. The study of science and of the heliocentric Solar System in which we live is the study of God's universe first and foremost. We recognize that we live in a heliocentric universe because it is what we can see. We are not at the center of our own galaxy, but are rather at the edges of it.This is because God knew that the center of our galaxy is a place of insanely fluctuating fields of gravity, radiation, and light that would tear the earth apart in two seconds.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I really, really would like to know how YSM would continue refuting the actual nature of the cosmos should she be taken into orbit by Soyuz (or Orion, theoretically speaking).

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
 
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yeshuasavedme

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continuing the detailed analysis of this joke of a paper:


This completely forgets that science is not the ignorance of the Bible. Science, when properly done, is the study of God's creation of the universe, and of the rules that God put in place to govern the universe. It centers on God, because God created those rules of which we speak. The Laws of Thermodynamics were designed by God, as were the laws of Special and General Relativity. The study of science and of the heliocentric Solar System in which we live is the study of God's universe first and foremost. We recognize that we live in a heliocentric universe because it is what we can see. We are not at the center of our own galaxy, but are rather at the edges of it.This is because God knew that the center of our galaxy is a place of insanely fluctuating fields of gravity, radiation, and light that would tear the earth apart in two seconds.
Again,

Your belief system denies the truth of the Word of God from the beginning, and you do not use Scripture at all, but rely on things you cannot personally verify, but you base your beliefs on the words of men of unbelief, only, and not on the Word of God.

But Genesis 1 totally refutes your entire belief system, in that the center of creation is the earth, which was created as a globe of water with the powers that were of a piece with it, and in darkness.
The light was commanded "to be" on day 1, and separated from the darkness, with the circle of them around the globe in their division, from their origin point and back, making one "Day", of one week, and then they begin again...and so on unto eternity.
The sun and moon were made and set in the heavens on day 4. They govern the created light by day and by night, and with the stars, bring in and mark the times and seasons of the days, months, and years and of God's Holy Assemblies, as He says in Genesis.
 
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sculleywr

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Again,

Your belief system denies the truth of the Word of God from the beginning, and you do not use Scripture at all, but rely on things you cannot personally verify, but you base your beliefs on the words of men of unbelief, only, and not on the Word of God.

Please stop telling me what I do and don't believe. Either get up and study real science, respond in an intelligent manner to the points given and the evidence posted from multiple credible sources, using real evidence and not claims that ignore what people have seen with their own two eyes, including me.

Let me post it very big so you can read it:

I have seen the orbit of the planets circling the sun (corrected because now you even have my brain tired of looking at this crap) with my own eyes looking through a telescope I controlled. I do not base my understanding of the world on the words of men, but on my observation of God's world through the eyes God gave me using the brain God gave me.

Geocentrism, on the other hand, uses no experiments to prove its stance, ignores every piece of observational data, and makes a mockery of the Bible by deciding that a literal interpretation of the Scripture is needed every time, and so it is logical to believe that a geocentrist also believes that God has wings, a tail, and horns of a goat, because they believe every figure of speech should be taken literally.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Again,

Your belief system denies the truth of the Word of God from the beginning, and you do not use Scripture at all, but rely on things you cannot personally verify, but you base your beliefs on the words of men of unbelief, only, and not on the Word of God.

But Genesis 1 totally refutes your entire belief system, in that the center of creation is the earth, which was created as a globe of water with the powers that were of a piece with it, and in darkness.
The light was commanded "to be" on day 1, and separated from the darkness, with the circle of them around the globe in their division, from their origin point and back, making one "Day", of one week, and then they begin again...and so on unto eternity.
The sun and moon were made and set in the heavens on day 4. They govern the created light by day and by night, and with the stars, bring in and mark the times and seasons of the days, months, and years and of God's Holy Assemblies, as He says in Genesis.

I'm sorry but that is pure unadulterated HOGWASH. Sculley comes from a faith tradition that puts your lonewolf-ism to shame when it comes to understanding of the Scriptures, what you try to teach here on CF and GT is just an embarrassment and an affront to Christianity. I pray that no new Christians saunter on in here and read your threads because it wouldn't surprise me one iota if they did an about face and never paid attention to any other individual representing the Christian faith ever again.

Sculley has in fact verified more than you have because he's actually viewed empirical evidence via an observatory. Aside from a physical trip into Low Earth Orbit (which is becoming more of a likelihood for every-day average Joe's like us) it doesn't get much better than that.

You simply cannot "tell us" that accepting what our five senses have been observing about the cosmos for the last five centuries makes us rejectors of the Word of God. For one, the Word is Christ - and to infer that any of us are rejecting him is tantamount to breaking the rules that say you can't reject someone's claim to Christianity on these forums. Secondly, we all affirm the Scriptures, we just have the common sense to know that they're not all written like an grammar school text book.

God gave us all brains - USE THEM!
 
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sculleywr

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But Genesis 1 totally refutes your entire belief system,

No it doesn't. Your interpretation is different than the rest of the world.


in that the center of creation is the earth
Funny, I don't recall center being anywhere in Genesis 1. Let's read it:

In the beginning God made heaven and earth. The earth was invisible and unfinished; and darkness was over the deep. The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. God saw the light; it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day; the darkness He called Night; and there was evening and morning, one day.
Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the water, and let it divide the water from the water"; and it was so. Thus God made the firmament, and God divided the water under the firmament from the water above the firmament. So God called the firmament Heaven, and God saw that it was good; and there was evening and morning, the second day.
Then God said, "Let the water under heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. The water under heaven was gathered into its places, and the dry land appeared. So God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the herb of grass, bearing seed according to its kind and likeness. Let the fruit tree bear fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind on earth." It was so. Thus the earth brought forth the herb of grass, bearing seed according to its kind and likeness. The fruit tree bore fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind on earth. God saw that it was good. So evening and morning were the third day.
Enlighten us. Where in that quote is the earth in the center of ANYTHING? Where is electric even in there? I don't recall electricity being anywhere in Scripture. Where do you get that bull malarkey?


, which was created as a globe of water with the powers that were of a piece with it, and in darkness.
The light was commanded "to be" on day 1, and separated from the darkness, with the circle of them around the globe in their division, from their origin point and back, making one "Day", of one week, and then they begin again...and so on unto eternity.

No mention of powers in the entire passage. In fact, nothing there about powers in any of the creation passage.

No mention of eternity here, either. Nope. So far, I am discarding all statements from the creation account on the basis of them not being there:

Powers
Electric
Electricity
eternity
origin point
center

The sun and moon were made and set in the heavens on day 4. They govern the created light by day and by night, and with the stars, bring in and mark the times and seasons of the days, months, and years and of God's Holy Assemblies, as He says in Genesis.

Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven for illumination to divide day from night. Let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years. Let them be for illumination in the firmament of heaven to give light on the earth." It was so. Then God made two great lights:the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. So evening and morning were the fourth day.
Actually, it seems that the greater light (the sun) was made to "rule over the day". So in fact, this is even more evidence of heliocentric beliefs in the Scripture, because the sun is shown to rule over the day. The sun directly rules over the earth at any time that it is day.

Essentially, you just got caught in your own trap.
 
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In a nutshell, I interpret it as man's way of describing the science of what they see in vision but will differ in allegory and style while all having a common knowledge of the same supernatural phenomenon's that are all a pattern of a flat image such as a Cross or an X with relative objects. It's simply imagery that describes the anatomy of man's mind IMHO, and it might even play out in nature if man have the authority and power of YHWH and the Father to move mountains by their faith. They described what the first of the Sons has Created just the same. It's a road map of man's mind and perhaps even the mind of God by their perspective's, and this be the fact then, if we can't understand it then that doesn't mean it's not relevant to truth. Thanks :)
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I have seen the orbit of the planets circling the earth
.

Why did you shout? And why do you change the discussion to what is not in it?
And why do you not use Scripture in this discussion, if you believe the Scriptures teach a heliocentric universe, as you said they do?....and I am still waiting for you to provide Scripture to back up your own belief system....


The Scripture does say the sun, moon, and stars have their own courses to run in the circle/the heavens which circle this earth from the beginning, and the globe of water in the beginning of creation was the origin point of the stretched out heavens, which were stretched out from the globe/the earth between the divided in two waters of this globe on day 2...so the light began right here, on this fixed in place earth, and half the waters of creation are above the stretched out heavens.

This thread is "The Sun Revolves Around the Earth: The Scripture Cannot LIE".
So please, bring in your Scriptures that you believe teach a heliocentric universe...

 
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sculleywr

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Why did you shout? And why do you change the discussion to what is not in it?
And why do you not use Scripture in this discussion, if you believe the Scriptures teach a heliocentric universe, as you said they do?....and I am still waiting for you to provide Scripture to back up your own belief system....


The Scripture does say the sun, moon, and stars have their own courses to run in the circle/the heavens which circle this earth from the beginning, and the globe of water in the beginning of creation was the origin point of the stretched out heavens, which were stretched out from the globe/the earth between the divided in two waters of this globe on day 2...so the light began right here, on this fixed in place earth, and half the waters of creation are above the stretched out heavens.

This thread is "The Sun Revolves Around the Earth: The Scripture Cannot LIE".
So please, bring in your Scriptures that you believe teach a heliocentric universe...

[/size]


I shout because you aren't listening to anything other than yourown personal interpretation that ignores EVERY SINGLE THING YOUR PLAIN EYES COULD SEE IF YOU EVEN LOOKED.

But if you would continue to ignore everyone else, then go ahead. I'll continue to study God's heliocentric universe because I don't see a geocentric universe when I look out at the universe.
 
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Harry3142

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I personally suspect that such an argument as we find on this thread is actually a 'fishing expedition'. In this particular case it's using geocentricity as its 'bait', but such expeditions have used various 'bait' in order to hook the unwary. It's an attempt to ensnare the gullible among us, convincing them that what we all know to be nonsense is actually factual. Those who accept this particular nonsense are then presented with other nonsense which they are ordered to accept, until the real purpose for such an expedition becomes apparent.

Atheists have used this same tactic as a means of mocking Christians, claiming that we will accept any nonsense that camouflages itself as Holy Writ ("If they'll believe that someone who was born 2,000 years ago is still alive today, they'll believe anything we throw at them if we disguise it as Scripture!"). We must remain constantly vigilant for the wolves who disguise themselves as sheep.
 
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Jipsah

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This thread is "The Sun Revolves Around the Earth
Which is a ridiculous premise to begin with.

The Scripture Cannot LIE"
We pretty much all agree with that.

So please, bring in your Scriptures that you believe teach a heliocentric universe...
Not "universe", really, just "solar system". The Earth orbits around the sun. God designed it so. If you're unhappy with that fact, take it up with the management. ;)
 
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