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Featured THE SOUL: What is it?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by JIMINZ, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. Sorn

    Sorn Active Member

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    Its always good to hear different or new viewpoints so don't hold back.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Thanks that was a good post. I think the next step as you proceed is to look up the various Greek and Hebrew words via a Lexicon or if you are fluent in either language go to the source. I did so years ago, and will revisit as well.

    I would gather from what you posted from the quoted post above your views most likely fit the trichotomist view. Which BTW is Biblical (you knew that) but also a held historic Christian view too.

    Again, out of curiosity, How do you address the use by Paul of the "inner man" in 2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 7:22–23? I would gather you would see that as our spirit.

    And when Paul says in Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" do you see the part being conformed our spirit or soul?
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I tell you the truth, this post will be time stamped today! :)
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Indeed man does have an advantage over the animals and probably why you ignored this:

    Genesis 1: NKJV
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
    let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    Now certainly, I hope "Fluffy" and "Scruffy" have their place in the many Mansions in Heaven. However, we were created distinct and very special from all other creations who breathed air too.
     
  5. christine40

    christine40 Well-Known Member

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    stepping in for one second to say please be kind to fluffy and scruffy on National Pet Day and all our pets that love us
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Thanks for the reminder. It will be a sad day for the family. Our Yellow Lab of 12 years passed away last month. However, our rescue dog a German Shepherd-Basset mix will keep our 'spirits' (or souls? or both?--LOL had to get that in) cheered.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    BobRyan said:
    "The spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7 -- heaven with God

    1. Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;

    11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    At no point does the text say that scripture is meaningless or that the text itself is meaningless.
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I also believe our 'soul' is our real self, and that it continues after flesh death.

    Eccl.12:5-7 reveals at flesh death our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. In Matt.10:28, Jesus showed the soul continues existence after flesh death. So I believe one's spirit talked about in Eccl.12 includes the soul, even though it's not specifically mentioned.

    Eccl.12 also reveals something unique. Solomon mentioned about a "silver cord" being severed at flesh death. That suggests our spirit body or soul is one manifestation, and our flesh body is another; that they are of two different substances and realms, or dimensions.

    In 1 Cor.15, Apostle Paul explained what kind of body the resurrection is. He said it was a "spiritual body", and he also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
     
  9. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    no, i didn't ignore that, (and thanks for throwing me under the bus! :help:)

    the verse is clear, that:

    Ecclesiastes 3:19-20(NKJV)
    19For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath;
    man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
    20
    All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

    so when it comes to the life of man verses the life of animals, there's no difference.

    it's all about context! :oldthumbsup:
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes you are arguing from a book of sayings/poetry as opposed to the direct words of God in Genesis chapter 1.
     
  11. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    i just see eccl 3:19 being consistent with ezek 18:4 and heb 9:27!

    and that little old verse of 2 timothy 3:16 comes to mind also.
     
  12. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    And I forgive you Bonzo, whatever that means, anyway.

    Maybe you should refute a new argument with a new argument instead of repeating your previous opinion to a new argument. It might reduce the confusion here. Sorry, I thought you were trying to refute a new argument.
     
  13. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    You think the life of animals the same as men. If you would only read the next verse from the one you quoted, you would see scripture does not teach so.

    Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”​

    And, if you read more of the book you would see further contradiction to your idea in chapter 12 where the "Teacher" is addressing the death of people.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
    and the spirit returns to God who gave it.​
    And, what would be the point of following God if as chapter 9 teaches the destiny of all is the same, whether good or wicked? We know the rest of scripture does not agree with this.

    Ecclesiastes 9:2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
    As it is with the good,
    so with the sinful;
    as it is with those who take oaths,
    so with those who are afraid to take them.
    3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.​

    It should be obvious that the "Teacher" is describing the physical life and physical death, the mentality of worldly thinking, that there is no life besides the physical. But if you look at the closing statement of Ecclesiastes, you read a different teaching that we should fear God and keep his commands because he will judge us.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13 Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
    Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the duty of all mankind.
    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.​

    You do know that scripture does quote secular writers.
    So to be exact, not all of scripture is God's word.
    But, sometimes it is useful to present a wrong idea to emphasize the right idea.
    And so, all scripture is useful for teaching, even when incorrect teachings are quoted.
     
  14. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    I guess that means you don't have to explicitly say what day you wrote what you wrote, or say what you say.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  15. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    I quoted verse 8 that says meaningless explicitly, so yes it does say it. Now other translations say senseless, pointless, fleeting, useless, for nothing, futile and a lot say vanity, but vanity does not make sense.

    There are numerous contradictions between what the "Teacher" says and what other scripture says. I pointed out some in post 177. Consider also

    Proverbs 8:11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
    Proverbs 10:4 Lazy hands make for poverty,
    but diligent hands bring wealth.

    Wisdom and Folly Are Meaningless
    Ecclesiastes 2:12 Then I turned my thoughts to consider wisdom,
    and also madness and folly.
    What more can the king’s successor do
    than what has already been done?
    13 I saw that wisdom is better than folly,
    just as light is better than darkness.
    14 The wise have eyes in their heads,
    while the fool walks in the darkness;
    but I came to realize
    that the same fate overtakes them both.


    15 Then I said to myself,
    “The fate of the fool will overtake me also.
    What then do I gain by being wise?
    I said to myself,
    This too is meaningless.”
    16 For the wise, like the fool, will not be long remembered;
    the days have already come when both have been forgotten.
    Like the fool, the wise too must die!
    Toil Is Meaningless

    17 So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless. 20 So my heart began to despair over all my toilsome labor under the sun. 21 For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. 22 What do people get for all the toil and anxious striving with which they labor under the sun? 23 All their days their work is grief and pain; even at night their minds do not rest. This too is meaningless.
    And so the texts written by the same person say completely different things. Much of Ecclesiastes is as I described a secular view of life. This is done to point out the futility of such a viewpoint.
     
  16. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    by your response, i see that you are not following what i'm saying.

    let's take your statement
    "You think the life of animals the same as men".

    what i'm saying is that, from the text, that man and beast have the same type of existence!

    they are made of flesh and need air to breath, that's all.

    and you said
    "And, what would be the point of following God if as chapter 9 teaches the destiny of all is the same, whether good or wicked?"

    the verse simply points out that when we die on this earth we return to the earth, whether man or beast.

    we know that man can be resurrected and that's the point!
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    BobRyan said:
    "The spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7 -- heaven with God

    1. Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;

    11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    At no point does the text say that scripture is meaningless
    or that the text itself is meaningless.

    1. The Bible is not meaningless
    2. The Gospel is not meaningless
    3. Evangelism is not meaningless
    4. Salvation is not meaningless

    These statements are all true -

    1. Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;

    11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.


    But it does not say the text of scripture is meaningless - or that one you quoted would be "meaningless" which even you insist as meaning.

    It is true as Paul says in 1 Cor 15 "if we have hoped in this life only - we are of all men most miserable".

    But not all of Ecclesiastes is written from that one perspective just like not all of 1 Corinthians is written with that one perspective.

    And clearly these are not the secularist world view --
    1. Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;

    11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.​
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    All bodies -- all flesh - returns to dust.

    But Eccl 3 says this - (kjv)
    20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
    21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    Eccl 12
    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
     
  19. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    The point of this thread is to ponder what is unique of man, a spiritual part different from our physical side, a quality that makes us made in the image of God and how he personally breathed his life/spirit into Adam.

    To quote some text that delves into the similarity between the flesh of men and of animals does nothing to prove or disprove the spirit/soul.

    And, the book of Ecclesiastes is a trap for misleading teachings of the spirit when it is quoted out of context.
     
  20. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't you just read my original post to begin with, then you would have had some idea as to what I was speaking to, it's not my fault you didn't understand the conversation that was between me and another poster.

    Ok that's cool, have a good day.
     
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