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Featured THE SOUL: What is it?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by JIMINZ, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    the spirit in man is also like a spiritual recording of you.

    when you die, the spirit in you has recorded everything about you.

    we could liken it to copying a cd disk to your hard drive on your computer.

    you copy a cd to the computer as an iso or virtual disk.

    the virtual disk is an excact copy of the disk although it's not the disk, just a digitized representation.

    if the actual disk you copied is destroyed, then you can burn another copy to have another physical disk.

    it is similar to this analogy that when a person dies (and it doesn't matter by what manner of death), God is able to bring that exact person back to life (resurrection).


    Romans 4:17(NKJV)
    17
    ...God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
     
  2. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

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    now since we understand how the bible uses the word "soul", we can understand what Jesus was saying in matt 10:28!

    man can kill the body but can't kill the life of a person (meaning that man can only stop the life process temporarily), because God can bring that life back in a resurrection. so Jesus says that we should fear Him that can destroy both body and soul.

    God has the power to judge an individual and if necessary condemn him to the lake of fire or the second death where there is no later resurrection, hence destroying the life of the man forever!
     
  3. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    Here's some reasons the comma should be after "Today"

    (1) The Greek grammar is much more correct.
    (2) This took place while Christ was on the cross. In 2Cor 12:2-4, it indicates that paradise was then in the 3rd Heaven. So, do you really think that Christ died that day, went immediately to the 3rd heaven to see this guy, and then returned?
    (3) I say unto you today, ....., is an idiom. We use the same idiom, which always denotes a time, and follows the time with a comma and then with what you want the person to know. For example, "I'm telling you right now, you better be good at the party."
    (4) I have a list of 42 times this idiom appears in Deuteronomy, in different forms, starting with 4:26, 39, 40
    (5) As it is in the KJV, it says that the thief didn't need to wait for the resurrection.
    (6) No where else in the Bible does it say that we immediately go to heaven or paradise when we die. Comforting, but not true. Everyone that died, except Christ, is still in the grave waiting for the resurrection.
    (7) Paradise is associated with the New Earth, New Jerusalem, and the tree of life,i in Rev 2 and Rev 22. The thief believed in Christ, but he was a Gentile with no calling, as were all non-proselyte Gentiles, from Gen 12 through Acts 9. That means he will end up on the New Earth. Christ will be with the thief in paradise, but that's still a long time in the future.

    What I've given is not 100% proof that the comma is in the wrong place, but it is about 99.9% proof.

    No one has EVER gone to Heaven immediately upon their death. That's a total myth taught by denominational preachers. The sheep love to hear stuff like that. Except for Jesus Christ, everyone that has died is still in the grave. Only Christ has been resurrected. There will be 4 massive resurrections. It's very comforting to tell people their dead loved ones are in Heaven with Jesus but it's a total lie.
     
  4. Monna

    Monna Well-Known Member

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    God, as God, is outside of the shackles of time. He is present in all "physical universal times - past present and future." But as the Father of Time, He is very conscious of time and intervenes as He does, always at "the appointed time" - the best time, the appropriate time. Jesus was/is a man, even if we believe he is also divine, one person in the Trinity. He would appear to straddle both "time and supra-time" zones. (Though if he does completely, why does he not know the time of his return - which he himself said only the Father knows?)

    So ... the idea that when we die, we must wait until the day of resurrection to rise again, and the idea that we are immediately 'present with the Lord' can both be true and at the 'same time,' depending on your point of reference (God's timelessness or man's time-bound nature). Even if you work only from within the framework of Eistien's space-time relationship, both can be true. But let's not go there.

    But another question about man and his soul and/or spirit. Christians believe that humankind was formed from dust in "the likeness" or "the image" of God. How is the discussion of man's dichotomous or trichotomous nature affected by the Christian belief of the trinity and of his being created in God's likeness? Is there any connection?
     
  5. Sorn

    Sorn Active Member

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    I think its because we really want to know deep down how it is that we can come back from the dead, or survive death. I also think its because its an expression of a fact that is often only sensed but not fully grasped or articulated and that is that unless there is something that is you that survives your death then you can not be brought back to life.

    Another way to think about the souls (or spirit) is this: What is the role or purpose of the soul??

    This idea of a 'recording of your life' that is used by God to bring you back has potentially a major flaw in it.
    If we are recreated or resurrected from a 'file' that God keeps about us then we are not actually resurrected, we have ceased to exist, what God has done is created a copy of you, in other words 'another you', but He has not brought YOU back.
    In this view Heaven is going to be populated by a copy of everyone who was saved, but the ACTUAL people who made the decision for Christ will die and stay dead. God could also use this file to recreate or resurrect multiples of you (ie many copies), which clearly can not be you.

    As we are not told when a soul is created, it may be that souls are created at the time of our death (in order to preserve us) so that it is really us who are resurrected.
     
  6. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    You could be right. I could go on at length on this topic, but there's nothing to say my thoughts are any better than anyone else. It's just the way I've managed to make sense of it all.
     
  7. christine40

    christine40 Well-Known Member

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    there are are three things that last faith, hope, and love
    so when a person dies (souls as they separate from body ) wouldn't they only have the faith, hope, and love and none of anything else?
    don't know what I'm trying to say

    doesn't it say in the Bible somewhere, there will be a new body, seems like I read it the other day but don't remember what book of the Bible I was in
    (won't be the exactly same as the earthly body)
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    The context actually shows two men perishing in the flesh about to die. Their last day. Then why the emphasis on "today" if it was the last day? What other day was Jesus going to tell him this information?

    Again, which English translation supports your claim?
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Humans don't have spirits or souls?
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Yet we have this:

    then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

    Which corresponds with:

    2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

    5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


    And,

    “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    You left out an important part of the breath of life received by mankind. Mankind was created in the Image and according to the likeness of God. The animals created previously were not.

    God did not blow oxygen in the nostrils of Adam, but His very life giving image and likeness. God is Spirit.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    Body is in orange above. Which returns to the dust.

    Soul/spirit is what God gave us to be in His image and according to His likeness. That is in blue above.

    Notice the "and" in the text. Shows two different actions and both completed by our Creator. He formed the physical structure and then breathed in His image and likeness. God is Spirit.

    Which brings us to this again:

    then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
     
  12. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    GOD BREATHED IN THE BREATH OF LIFE.
    And therefore, because of breath, we are living souls.

    Scripture does NOT say, "God breathed into his nostrils his image and likeness" or "holy Spirit" or anything like that!

    Note, His image and likeness does not give life, it is what sets us apart from other animals, which of course have life too!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Just provides evidence the Bible reveals blood supplies oxygen for us to breathe.

    Yet this is oxygen to live on planet earth. God did not breathe the breath of life directly into each animal. He did so in His creation which is in His image and according to His likeness.

    Not everywhere you see nephesh does it mean breathing air synonymous to life. In fact "naphach" is used in Genesis 2:7 to show God is directly doing it.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    What makes you think the spirit is not alive?
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    The REB is not a literal word for word translation of the Greek. Worse he uses a colon instead.

    This is the literal rendering of the Greek:

    καὶ [And] εἶπεν [he said] αὐτῷ [to him] Ἀμήν [Truly] σοι [to you] λέγω [I say] σήμερον [today] μετ [with] ἐμοῦ [me] ἔσῃ [you will be] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] Παραδείσῳ [Paradise]

    Which translates to:

    “Truly to you I say today with me you will be in Paradise.”

    The reason every English translation puts the comma in and arranged the English well into English is because as literal word for word above we know Luke did not write like Yoda speaks. ;)

    However, I will answer my own question. The only self proclaimed literal English translation which has no comma is the New World Translation (NWT). Which is a product of the Jehovah's Witnesses who are advocates for soul sleep.

    Question: "Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?"

    Answer:
    The New World Translation (NWT) is defined by the Jehovah's Witnesses’ parent organization (the Watchtower Society) as "a translation of the Holy Scriptures made directly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into modern-day English by a committee of anointed witnesses of Jehovah." The NWT is the anonymous work of the “New World Bible Translation Committee.” Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the anonymity is in place so that the credit for the work will go to God. Of course, this has the added benefit of keeping the translators from any accountability for their errors and prevents real scholars from checking their academic credentials.

    The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. The “New World Bible Translation Committee” went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that, as new editions of the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. Here are some of the more prominent examples of intentional revisions:

    The New World Translation renders the Greek term word staurós ("cross") as "torture stake" because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. The New World Translation does not translate the words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as "hell” because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in hell. The NWT gives the translation "presence" instead of “coming” for the Greek word parousia because Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s. In Colossians 1:16, the NWT inserts the word “other” despite its being completely absent from the original Greek text. It does this to give the view that “all other things” were created by Christ, instead of what the text says, “all things were created by Christ.” This is to go along with their belief that Christ is a created being, which they believe because they deny the Trinity.


    More:
    Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?

    "Buyer" beware as I've seen posters here quoting the NWT version.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Where are Enoch and Elijah?

    Did you consider the following:

    1 Peter 3: NKJV
    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

    The Paradise spoken of could very well be Abraham's bosom as depicted by Christ in Luke 16:19-31 which in the Jewish tradition of the time was also known as Gan Eden.

    In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abodeof bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).

    Unless of course you share the JW view that Jesus was in the grave and His soul/spirit vaporized for three days to return again. If not He went somewhere.

    However, your contention is about the physical kingdom of God no doubt. Yet the kingdom is always where the King resides whether in the heavenly or earthly.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Not even close. More like 2% as only two versions one from the JWs and one from an individual translation omits the comma.

    You know this how?

    Actually taught by Paul that once we leave these bodies we are present with the Lord. Where is the Lord right now?
    Again Paul says not so. He said if he dies it is gain and he would be with the Lord. Where is the Lord residing? Of course this means our souls/spirits the "us" in the presence of the Lord. My argument was was not resurrected bodies.

    4?

    It is comforting and Biblical apostolic truth.

    2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1.
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    That is quite plausible. However think of the audience and their reliance on the space/time continuum.

    The words were to be comforting as well. As in "I will not leave you nor forsake you." And that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    I believe the Holy Scriptures provide the compelling evidence we humans have a material body and immaterial soul/spirit.

    There could be a connection if we explore in more detail the trichotomous emphasis.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    God created us in His image and likeness in Genesis 1. A macro view of creation. In Genesis 2 we see the micro view of the creation of man.

    Unless your point perhaps is God is made of dust. Which He is not.

    God is Spirit we are told by Jesus in John 4. Which means God the Father does not have a human body. Therefore, as we are created in the image and likeness of God, we have a spiritual nature....spirit/soul.
     
  20. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    MOD HAT

    This thread had a clean up of some posts that were in violation of rules and some that responded to those posts.
     
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