The snare of devotion to Mary.

[bbbbbbb]

Yes it is. But we can't understand the Resurrection without the Cross, can we? I think I remember Paul saying in 1 Corinthians or somewhere that we proclaim Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified.

Quite true. We also should include His birth, earthly ministry, ascension, and heavenly ministry, should we not?

 

[patricius79]

Quite true. We also should include His birth, earthly ministry, ascension, and heavenly ministry, should we not?

Yes, and also His conception by Mary and His time in her holy womb.

 

[Panevino]

I personally see no need to depict the shameful and terrible death of our Lord; rather, the Christian gospel is focused on His resurrection, is it not?

It's both and of course other things.
Crucifixion demonstrates his love for us as the lamb
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The centurion understands at seeing him on the cross.

And Luke 14:27 showing the significance of the events of the cross in our own lives....a death to self from temptations etcc
" And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."

Rev 5:6 ...and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,.......

 

[Panevino]

And later the bronze serpent became an idol they called Nehustan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehushtan) which had to be destroyed. The people worshipped the creation rather than the Creator.

I mentioned that in the post you responded to.
God instructed its formation and use. God responded when some misused it.
Because things can be misused does not mean they can't have a purpose. This is evident with the use of things like wine in the Passover/Eucharist, the serpent on the pole and the engravings/statues in the temple /holy of hollies.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I mentioned that in the post you responded to.
God instructed its formation and use. God responded when some misused it.
Because things can be misused does not mean they can't have a purpose. This is evident with the use of things like wine in the Passover/Eucharist, the serpent on the pole and the engravings/statues in the temple /holy of hollies.

Very true. It is when individuals attribute spiritual value to physical objects that idolatry sets in.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's both and of course other things.
Crucifixion demonstrates his love for us as the lamb
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The centurion understands at seeing him on the cross.

And Luke 14:27 showing the significance of the events of the cross in our own lives....a death to self from temptations etcc
" And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."

Rev 5:6 ...and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,.......

I find the use of the fish symbol to be more useful as it conveys a wider range of meanings and was a very popular icon of the early church.

 

[Panevino]

Very true. It is when individuals attribute spiritual value to physical objects that idolatry sets in.

Keep in mind God instructed Moses to set up the serpent on the pole as a conduit of His grace/healing.
It's not idolatry not at that point but when they worshipped it as a God replacing the true God.

 

[Panevino]

I find the use of the fish symbol to be more useful as it conveys a wider range of meanings and was a very popular icon of the early church.

That's ok just remember Catholics use the crucifix as a way to "preach Christ crucified" per 1cor1:23-24

 

[patricius79]

Very true. It is when individuals attribute spiritual value to physical objects that idolatry sets in.

I think that there was a spiritual value to the Ark of the Covenant--with the figures of the angels on it and the physical objects withing it--and all the physical objects used in the worship of God which were centered around it. I think that likewise the Bible is a physical objects which has spiritual value.

 

[Arsenios]

Yet there ARE Holy things...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

Keep in mind God instructed Moses to set up the serpent on the pole as a conduit of His grace/healing.
It's not idolatry not at that point but when they worshipped it as a God replacing the true God.

And Mary always leads people to Christ. She never distracts people from her Son.

 

[concretecamper]

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/honoring-mary-too-much

 

[Arsenios]

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/honoring-mary-too-much
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/honoring-mary-too-much

That is a fairly legit response to Evangelical criticisms of ANY veneration of Saints by the Apostolic Churches...

But the issue rests differently for the rest of the Ancient Churches, because we love her more than you do, yet differently - We regard her achievement, you see, as HER achievement - eg We see her attainment of her purity of heart at so young an age as a consequence of her person, and not as a matter of some special Grace given at her conception by God which Grace NONE of the rest of us human slobs has... iow We regard her attainment with incalculable awe as something we ourselves COULD have but DID NOT do... eg as her virtue and our moral failing...

The REAL Immaculate Conception, as I am sure you will agree, is the Conception, in Her Grace Filled Womb, of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ...

Arsenios

 

[concretecamper]

That is a fairly legit response to Evangelical criticisms of ANY veneration of Saints by the Apostolic Churches.

And typical of the evangelical responses on this forum.

 

[Arsenios]

And typical of the evangelical responses on this forum.

We have an expression in Orthodoxy which is not unknown elsewhere, which goes like this:

The apple does not fall far from the tree...

Keyword is fall...

The Reformation spawned the fallen apples...

The Latin Church is the tree...

Orthodoxy is a kind of Grand-Mother for all these illegitimate grandchildren you have spawned...

They seem theologically outraged at their parent...

Not a lot of trust...

Arsenios

 

[concretecamper]

We have an expression in Orthodoxy which is not unknown elsewhere, which goes like this:

The apple does not fall far from the tree...

Keyword is fall...

The Reformation spawned the fallen apples...

The Latin Church is the tree...

Orthodoxy is a kind of Grand-Mother for all these illegitimate grandchildren you have spawned...

They seem theologically outraged at their parent...

Not a lot of trust...

Arsenios

I am quite sure that the apple expression you cite does not have its roots in orthodoxy. However it is the most truthfully thing you wrote....

 

[Arsenios]

I am quite sure that the apple expression you cite does not have its roots in Orthodoxy.

Oh, that is just where I first heard it...

It does, however, have it's roots in reality...

However it is the most truthfull thing you wrote....

I hate lies too...

The Reformation and its spawn have been multiplied solely from the loins of the Latin Church...

There is nothing even close in all the rest of Christendom on earth...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/honoring-mary-too-much

Interesting. One of my neighbors is named "Mary" and she is Protestant Evangelical, but she's a very kind woman.

The idea of Catholicism is to go to Jesus through Mary, just as He came to us through her, who conceived Him in her sacred womb.

And I believed that until I began to ask myself a hard question. Show me, I started to ask myself, the Evangelical who honors Mary "just enough". The more I looked, the less I found. For the day to day reality is that my native Evangelicalism recoiled from any and all mention of Mary as though she were leprous. It began to seem to me that Evangelicals could talk all day about St. Paul and never feel as though by focusing 24 hours a day, seven days a week on the thought and life of St. Paul, they were "worshipping Paul" or "giving him "too much honor". That is because Evangelicals rightly understand that Jesus comes to us through St. Paul and there is no conflict between the two (even though St. Paul demonstrates a lot more character flaws than Mary ever did). Yet I had seen with my own eyes that the slightest mention of honor paid to Mary by a Catholic immediately brings a flood of warning and remonstrance down upon a Catholic head from well-meaning Evangelicals who talk as though a devotion to Mary for ten minutes will surely sunder a soul from the love of the living God while a lifetime of meditation on Paul is all part of living the Christian life. That's why, despite the claims to honor her "just enough" the reality was that there was effectively no attention paid to her beyond singing "Silent Night" each Christmas.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/honoring-mary-too-much/#ixzz3ztfW5ftS

 

[GoingByzantine]

I hate lies too...

The Reformation and its spawn have been multiplied solely from the loins of the Latin Church...

There is nothing even close in all the rest of Christendom on earth...

Arsenios

Aside from certain Old Believer communities, mind you. Particularly the groups that renounce an earthly priesthood, sacraments and believe that the anti-Christ reigns as we speak.

 

[Arsenios]

Interesting. One of my neighbors is named "Mary" and she is Protestant Evangelical, but she's a very kind woman.

The idea of Catholicism is to go to Jesus through Mary, just as He came to us through her, who conceived Him in her sacred womb.

And I believed that until I began to ask myself a hard question. Show me, I started to ask myself, the Evangelical who honors Mary "just enough". The more I looked, the less I found. For the day to day reality is that my native Evangelicalism recoiled from any and all mention of Mary as though she were leprous. It began to seem to me that Evangelicals could talk all day about St. Paul and never feel as though by focusing 24 hours a day, seven days a week on the thought and life of St. Paul, they were "worshipping Paul" or "giving him "too much honor". That is because Evangelicals rightly understand that Jesus comes to us through St. Paul and there is no conflict between the two (even though St. Paul demonstrates a lot more character flaws than Mary ever did). Yet I had seen with my own eyes that the slightest mention of honor paid to Mary by a Catholic immediately brings a flood of warning and remonstrance down upon a Catholic head from well-meaning Evangelicals who talk as though a devotion to Mary for ten minutes will surely sunder a soul from the love of the living God while a lifetime of meditation on Paul is all part of living the Christian life. That's why, despite the claims to honor her "just enough" the reality was that there was effectively no attention paid to her beyond singing "Silent Night" each Christmas.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/honoring-mary-too-much/#ixzz3ztfW5ftS

Nice post, thanks...

The sad fact is that Reformational faith has pretty much devolved into theological ideas...
Eastern Orthodox Catholics hold Her as our Treasury of Intercession to Christ...
Through Her we enter into Christ in Baptism, because She is the Woman persecuted by the Beast in Revelation, the Apostolic Church, the Body of Christ, Who IS the One doing the Baptism which Births us INTO Christ...
Simple Orthodox Faithful, children and adults and monastics and old men and women, seek and receive Her Intercession for helps... She is our Mother as well as Christ's, for we are IN Christ, in His Body as Members...

Indeed She is the New Eve, and as She is recorded saying in Holy Writ:

"Behold! All generations will be calling me Blessed!"

Calling Her Blessed is an essential part of our Worship of God every day...

The Reformation, in its illegitimate BIRTH through the means of Latin Scholasticism, has turned Scripture into a WEAPON to attack the Latins too PROVE them WRONG by Scripture... And in their birth by logical proof from Scripture, they swallow the Scholastic Camel, while straining the gnat of disagreements, and lose totally the Apostolic Faith of the Eastern Fathers who gave them the Bible and who reject Papal Power over the Body of Christ Who is Himself Her Head...

Arsenios