The snare of devotion to Mary.

[Panevino]

......I then posted this picture and asked what these individuals were doing - View attachment 168664

You responded that they also were worshipping. To which I said that they were prostrate before an image of Mary, therefore indicating that you also accept the fact that Catholics do, indeed, engage in the worship of Mary.

Now you deny that you ever posted your responses. I had held you up as an honest man, but it seems that my opinion of you was in error. I apologize for my error.

The picture of the priest looks like a typical ordination. They lay like that for a while. Looks like a kid has joined in which would of been funny/amazing.

 

[Albion]

Thank-you - Most do not seem to want to address the issue of the ontological difference in the soul of a person between worship and veneration...

The actual ontology of the Saints is that they to a very great degree possess Christ IN them...

And that of the Theotokos is that She more than any has Christ IN Her...

And of the Christ is that He it is Who is in the Saints and in the Theotokos...

So that when we reverence an Icon, we are worshiping Christ...

Because Christ is so much of the person represented in the Icon...

We kneel before the icon - Today's Feast is that of St. Anthony whose iconic depiction we reverence - and we cross ourselves and bow before him and kiss him, and we may even prostrate ourselves before him at his icon, and all these actions are actions of reverence and worship... And yet, they are not the worship of St. Anthony, but of Christ IN him, and he in Christ... It is that union, that Marriage of God and man, that IS St. Anthony now, for he and Christ are ONE...

This is why Saints are miracle workers in various degrees, for there are varying degrees of union with Christ, as one repents from self more and more, and Christ's will in such a person becomes more and more as the self-will of the person becomes less and less. Just as John the Baptist described himself in relation to Christ...

And we conduct ourselves no differently when we stand before an icon of, and are thereby in the presence of Christ, or the Theotokos, or a venerable Saint... And inwardly as well, our manner of supplication is the same before all three...

So that perhaps, I hope, the proper framing of the matter can avoid the red herring of worship vs veneration in the soul of the faithful person in the presence of icons... And we know that Christ is an Ikon of the Father, and is OUR Father, and that we are to icon Christ in our lives by following Him in the Faith He gave to us...

And that He did NOT give us a Bible and a printing press, but instead He gave us the Faith of our Fathers, Living Faith... The Bible was written years AFTER His Death on the Cross... By those who were KEEPING His Commandments...

Arsenios

To me, that reply appears to be an attempt to justify the worship of saints rather than an explanation of why the practice supposedly does not constitution worship.

 

[Albion]

The picture of the priest looks like a typical ordination. They lay like that for a while. Looks like a kid has joined in which would of been funny/amazing.

It does look like an ordination, and I'm not seeing any picture of Mary in the scene.

 

[patricius79]

To me, that reply appears to be an attempt to justify the worship of saints rather than an explanation of why the practice supposedly does not constitution worship.

How can you tell the difference?

I thought that Anglicans accepted the first 7 Ecumenical Councils, so I'm wondering where your posts are coming from, since the 7th Ecumenical Council affirmed that icons are to be venerated along with copies of the Cross and the Scriptures. I'm wondering if you object also to prostrating oneself before icons of Christ Himself, our God. If not, then why object to prostrating oneself before saints, who--as Scripture says--are one spirit with Christ and are members of Him?

 

[Arsenios]

To me, that reply appears to be an attempt to justify the worship of saints rather than an explanation of why the practice supposedly does not constitution worship.

How can one worship God and not venerate His Holy Ones in whom He abides?

That seems to me an entirely rhetorical question...

If one does not venerate the miracle working Saints, one scorns God...

How can this NOT be true?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Concerning the Bible, you are quite mistaken. The Old Testament was written long before the Christian era and was recognized by the Jewish community as holy scripture. Whether or not your denomination accepts their understanding of scripture does not change the fact that these writings were undertaken long before your saints were ever born.

Forgive me! I meant the New Testament... Yet even the Christian OT is for us written in Greek, translated BY the Jews INTO Greek a couple of hundred years before Christ, and well in use at the time of Christ by the Jews, and well attested in the New Testament... The Hebrew text today, the Masoretic, is a very late document, created by non-Christians...

The LXX is the Christian Old Testment - Even with all its many issues...

Arsenios

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I agree. But would kneel in front of painting of Mary, too, not because I believe that that painting is God, or that Mary is God, but because God is in Mary in a unique way. If I remember right, the 2nd Council of Nicea defended the use of Icons after the Iconoclast controversy, and said that Christians were right to venerate them along with the Scriptures.

Revelation 19:
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Revelation 22:
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

You go ahead and bow down to your images. You're not serving God by doing so.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The picture of the priest looks like a typical ordination. They lay like that for a while. Looks like a kid has joined in which would of been funny/amazing.

Yes, I agree. I am quite unsure about the kid.

 

[patricius79]

Revelation 19:
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
.

But we don't worship angels. We do worship God who is in angels and in the saints, and especially in the Mother of God. Likewise we don't worship Scripture, but we call it the Word of God (which Jesus is called) because God is in Scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Forgive me! I meant the New Testament... Yet even the Christian OT is for us written in Greek, translated BY the Jews INTO Greek a couple of hundred years before Christ, and well in use at the time of Christ by the Jews, and well attested in the New Testament... The Hebrew text today, the Masoretic, is a very late document, created by non-Christians...

The LXX is the Christian Old Testment - Even with all its many issues...

Arsenios

The fact of the matter is that the Old Testament, either in Greek or Hebrew, was written by non-Christians. If you reject either form of it because it was not authored by Christians, then you are only left with the New Testament.

There is no major difference between either text, other than the inclusion of the deutercanonical books of the Septuagint, which was not uniformly accepted in the Catholic Church until the Council of Trent. The Orthodox Churches, of course, have a different history regarding the canon of scripture. Even so, there is nothing in the deutercanonical books which affects any significant Christian doctrine that is not covered in the remainder of scripture.

 

[Arsenios]

The fact of the matter is that the Old Testament, either in Greek or Hebrew, was written by non-Christians.

The LXX was received in the New Testament canon...
The Masoretic Hebrew OT was written by the scattered Jews with an axe to grind...

If you reject either form of it because it was not authored by Christians, then you are only left with the New Testament.

The LXX is the Received Old Testament...

There is no major difference between either text,

There are some important differences, but you are right, they are mostly the same...

other than the inclusion of the deutercanonical books of the Septuagint, which was not uniformly accepted in the Catholic Church until the Council of Trent. The Orthodox Churches, of course, have a different history regarding the canon of scripture. Even so, there is nothing in the deutercanonical books which affects any significant Christian doctrine that is not covered in the remainder of scripture.

We love ALL the Bible...

Unlike Luther, for instance...

Who only loved what he agreed with...

And scorned James...

Or the Puritans, who couldn't abide those pesky Deutero-canonicals...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Revelation 19:
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Revelation 22:
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

You go ahead and bow down to your images. You're not serving God by doing so.

We are certainly not to worship Angels...
Indeed we are not to worship creation...
But only the uncreated Creator of creation...

Do you have an image?
Does Christ have an Image?
Visible materiality produces images...
To bow down before Christ...
Is to bow down before His Image...
And yes, we CAN bow down before Him...
And without His Image before us...
But you see, we love His Image...
And we love Him...

We have NO icons of the Holy Spirit...
Nor of God the Father...

But Christ had a image...
And we worship Him before His Ikon...
And when we are not before His Ikon...

Our ikons of Saints are all made AFTER they die...

Because though they die, they live...

For our God is their God...

The God of the Living...

Arsenios

 

[bbbbbbb]

The LXX was received in the New Testament canon...
The Masoretic Hebrew OT was written by the scattered Jews with an axe to grind...

The LXX is the Received Old Testament...

There are some important differences, but you are right, they are mostly the same...

We love ALL the Bible...

Unlike Luther, for instance...

Who only loved what he agreed with...

And scorned James...

Or the Puritans, who couldn't abide those pesky Deutero-canonicals...

Arsenios

Exactly what ax did those sneaky Jews have to grind with their Masoretic text?

You seriously misrepresent Martin Luther, who did not remove anything from the Bible that you embrace, nor did the Puritans, for that matter. Do you know why folks seem to view the deutercanonical books as pesky? I certainly don't view them as pesky, but also don't see them in the same light as the protocanonical books.

 

[Panevino]

• Revelation 19:

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Revelation 22:
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

You go ahead and bow down to your images. You're not serving God by doing so.

Bowing is not automatically worship.

The bible includes examples where bowing (even face to earth) to an angel where it is accepted and not rebuked. Acknowledging an awareness of the ability to distinguish a difference in intent.

One example is
Genesis 19:1-3
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Bowing is not automatically worship.

The bible includes examples where bowing (even face to earth) to an angel where it is accepted and not rebuked. Acknowledging an awareness of the ability to distinguish a difference in intent.

One example is
Genesis 19:1-3
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

I challenge you to find any verse(s) in the Bible which have people bowing before a statue or any other representation which is not condemns as idolatry.

 

[Panevino]

I challenge you to find any verse(s) in the Bible which have people bowing before a statue or any other representation which is not condemns as idolatry.

It does not say they bowed but the serpent on the pole is an adequate example that statues can be used in a context of the Father without being idolatry.
Numbers 21:8-9
And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Above used as a positive example to describe the crucifixion)
John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

The use of statues in context of the Fathers instruction is pretty clear in the most holy of hollies/mercy seat and solomons temple.

The serpent on the pole is ok (instructed by the Father) until some people decide to worship as a god(2kings18), replacing God, as they did with the molten calf (i.e.
Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.)

The ability for intent of bowing to be distinguished apart from worship remains relevant (ie: gen19:1-3 vs rev22:8-9)

 

[bbbbbbb]

It does not say they bowed but the serpent on the pole is an adequate example that statues can be used in a context of the Father without being idolatry.
Numbers 21:8-9
And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

(Above used as a positive example to describe the crucifixion)
John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

The use of statues in context of the Fathers instruction is pretty clear in the most holy of hollies/mercy seat and solomons temple.

The serpent on the pole is ok (instructed by the Father) until some people decide to worship as a god(2kings18), replacing God, as they did with the molten calf (i.e.
Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.)

The ability for intent of bowing to be distinguished apart from worship remains relevant (ie: gen19:1-3 vs rev22:8-9)

And later the bronze serpent became an idol they called Nehustan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehushtan) which had to be destroyed. The people worshipped the creation rather than the Creator.

 

[patricius79]

And later the bronze serpent became an idol they called Nehustan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehushtan) which had to be destroyed. The people worshipped the creation rather than the Creator.

I think there is no need to destroy the Crucifixes, as these help people to draw close to God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think there is no need to destroy the Crucifixes, as these help people to draw close to God.

I personally see no need to depict the shameful and terrible death of our Lord; rather, the Christian gospel is focused on His resurrection, is it not?

 

[patricius79]

I personally see no need to depict the shameful and terrible death of our Lord; rather, the Christian gospel is focused on His resurrection, is it not?

Yes it is. But we can't understand the Resurrection without the Cross, can we? I think I remember Paul saying in 1 Corinthians or somewhere that we proclaim Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified.