The snare of devotion to Mary.

[patricius79]

I know you believe that. What does the bible say though? Where is the Catholic Church in Scripture? It mentions a universal Church only. What makes your church that Church? It bears the name but is that evidence? The Church of Christ (COC) must be the "one true" Church, because it does have the Lords name on its sign outside. Does that make sense?

I know that the historic Church was explicitly called "the Catholic Church" by the 100s, and that she was already venerating the Mother of God as the New Eve.

The Bible--compiled by "the Catholic Church" in the early centuries-- explicitly says to hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether orally or by letter.

That is what the Catholic Church says too.

The Bible refers to Mary as the Mother of Jesus, and says that Jesus is God. The Catholic Church honors Mary as the Mother of God.

 

[Extraneous]

Trusting God is a good thing...

Abraham did...
We do not find Scripture recording that he trusted Scripture...
Don't you agree?

Arsenios

The Lord and his apostles teach us to beware of teachers, and they tell us that we need no teacher, and that the holy spirit will teach us, and that scripture was written for our learning. I see no need to follow anything else but scripture and the spirit. I see your Church and the Catholics, along with baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh day Adventists, LDS, Anglicans, Lutherans, Messianic Jews... and many others all arguing over stuff that they themselves invented. I must stick with scripture brother.

 

[Arsenios]

I must stick with scripture brother.

What does Scripture say about Abraham?

Abraham trusted God...

You trust other people's writings about God...

The Orthodox Faith is all about discipling the faithful in preparation for that encounter...

"Go, disciple all the nations..."

Arsenios

 

[Extraneous]

a

I know that the historic Church was explicitly called "the Catholic Church" by the 100s, and that she was already venerating the Mother of God as the New Eve.

The Bible--compiled by "the Catholic Church" in the early centuries-- explicitly says to hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether orally or by letter.

That is what the Catholic Church says too.

The Bible refers to Mary as the Mother of Jesus, and says that Jesus is God. The Catholic Church honors Mary as the Mother of God.

Only scripture matters. False doctrines were circulating in Paul's time. He was always rebuking them. He wanted us to grow into spiritual people instead of remaining infants in Christ. Paul wanted us to seek the Holy spirit teacher, not other men. His teaching leads us to follow the spirit. He warned us that after he left vicious wolves would come in and not spare us. He left and thats exactly what happened as far as i can tell.

Do you realize that the promise of Gods spirit is a part of the New covenant? Its actually a sign of that covenant, if im not mistaken. Its promised throughout scripture, both OT and NT.

John says we need no teacher, and in my struggles to learn, and in my struggles fighting through theological battlefields, i have found that John is right. We do not need a teacher.

 

[Extraneous]

What does Scripture say about Abraham?

Abraham trusted God...

You trust other people's writings about God...

The Orthodox Faith is all about discipling the faithful in preparation for that encounter...

"Go, disciple all the nations..."

Arsenios

Get rid of the stuff that's not found in scripture and i'll gladly call myself an Eastern Orthodox Christian.

 

[Arsenios]

Only scripture matters.
We do not need a teacher.

Until one is mature in the Faith in which Christ discipled His Disciples to disciple US,
we need teachers...

Paul instructs us: "Obey them that have the Rule over you..."

John was addressing the mature in the Faith...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

The Lord and his apostles teach us to beware of teachers, and they tell us that we need no teacher, and that the holy spirit will teach us, and that scripture was written for our learning. I see no need to follow anything else but scripture and the spirit. I see your Church and the Catholics, along with baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh day Adventists, LDS, Anglicans, Lutherans, Messianic Jews... and many others all arguing over stuff that they themselves invented. I must stick with scripture brother.

I think it's good if you do your best to form and follow your conscience. According to my conscience, I couldn't ever leave the Catholic Church or see a conflict between the written Word and the oral Word, which are the same Revelation. Scripture alone doesn't tell us which books are Biblical. St. Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. And St. Matthew tells us that Christ founded the Church on Rock, just as the Catholic Church teaches. Moreover St. Luke calls Mary "She Who Believed" and "Hail, Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace".

 

[Extraneous]

Until one is mature in the Faith in which Christ discipled His Disciples to disciple US,
we need teachers...

Paul instructs us: "Obey them that have the Rule over you..."

John was addressing the mature in the Faith...

Arsenios

Paul was talking about the apostles when he instructed that we follow those who are over us. He also warned us that when he left this world that wolves could come in and devour the flock. This is a warning not to follow anyone but paul and those he had fellowship with. We have no apostles today. The apostles bore signs of an apostle. No one today has showed those signs. If someone did, i still wouldn't follow them because i already have the greatest prophet in myself, the Lord. He has shown me the way, its simple and not complicated. Do i believe teachers can help us understand afew things? Yes, but you wont know if they are correct unless you study NT scripture for yourself as the Berean Jews did, and follow the spirit as well which is Gods way.

 

[Arsenios]

Get rid of the stuff that's not found in scripture and i'll gladly call myself an Eastern Orthodox Christian.

Not everything was written...

Scripture tells us that Abraham believed God...

I believe Scripture in this...

Don't you??

Arsenios

 

[Extraneous]

I think it's good if you do your best to form and follow your conscience. According to my conscience, I couldn't ever leave the Catholic Church or see a conflict between the written Word and the oral Word, which are the same Revelation. Scripture alone doesn't tell us which books are Biblical. St. Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. And St. Matthew tells us that Christ founded the Church on Rock, just as the Catholic Church teaches. Moreover St. Luke calls Mary "She Who Believed" and "Hail, Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace".

With respect, your understanding is flawed, most likely because of the teaching you received from the Catholic Church.

 

[Arsenios]

Paul was talking about the apostles when he instructed that we follow those who are over us.

It was the Apostles who GAVE the Rule over the faithful to those called Episkopoi - Over-seers, Bishops...

The Apostles founded Churches by appointing Bishops - Like Timothy, who had the Rule over the Flock to which Paul appointed him...

Arsenios

 

[Extraneous]

Not everything was written...

Scripture tells us that Abraham believed God...

I believe Scripture in this...

Don't you??

Arsenios

Everything we need was written. Its not complicated doctrine. Men who think they must add to the scriptures are the ones who complicate the gospel

 

[Extraneous]

Churches can still choose qualified leaders, and rightfully so, but the days of the apostle are over.

 

[patricius79]

a


Only scripture matters. False doctrines were circulating in Paul's time. He was always rebuking them. He wanted us to grow into spiritual people instead of remaining infants in Christ. Paul wanted us to seek the Holy spirit teacher, not other men. His teaching leads us to follow the spirit. He warned us that after he left vicious wolves would come in and not spare us. He left and thats exactly what happened as far as i can tell.

Do you realize that the promise of Gods spirit is a part of the New covenant? Its actually a sign of that covenant, if im not mistaken. Its promised throughout scripture, both OT and NT.

John says we need no teacher, and in my struggles to learn, and in my struggles fighting through theological battlefields, i have found that John is right. We do not need a teacher.

I agree that we should listen to the Holy Spirit rather than human traditions. That's why I am Catholic. The Bible itself says to hold fast to both the written and oral traditions. I think that having the Holy Spirit, the Spouse of Mary, does not mean that we don't need the authors of Scripture or the leaders of the Church, which is the fullness of Christ, as Scripture itself says. In fact, in the Bible, Mary conceives Jesus Christ, our God, by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is given through the laying on of hands. And in the case of Cornelius, by the preaching of Rock, the Pope.

 

[Extraneous]

I agree that we should listen to the Holy Spirit rather than human traditions. That's why I am Catholic. The Bible itself says to hold fast to both the written and oral traditions. I think that having the Holy Spirit, the Spouse of Mary, does not mean that we don't need the authors of Scripture or the leaders of the Church, which is the fullness of Christ, as Scripture itself says. In fact, in the Bible, Mary conceives Jesus Christ, our God, by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is given through the laying on of hands. And in the case of Cornelius, by the preaching of Rock, the Pope.

Ok.

 

[Arsenios]

Everything we need was written.
Its not complicated doctrine.
Men who think they must add to the scriptures are the ones who complicate the gospel

The discipling of the faithful was given to the Apostles, like Paul, who established Churches by appointing Bishops like Timothy [in 1 & 2 Tim.] to oversee them... Christ is the Head, and there ARE those called to be Apostles, as Paul writes... They are still being called by God in the spreading of the Faith of Christ...

The Faith includes, but IS NOT, doctrine...

The Faith of Christ is discipled; it is not schooled in classrooms...

The first WORD of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "REPENT..."

THAT is an action of obedience, and not a tenet assented to...

Arsenios

 

[Extraneous]

The discipling of the faithful was given to the Apostles, like Paul, who established Churches by appointing Bishops like Timothy [in 1 & 2 Tim.] to oversee them... Christ is the Head, and there ARE those called to be Apostles, as Paul writes... They are still being called by God in the spreading of the Faith of Christ...

The Faith includes, but IS NOT, doctrine...

The Faith of Christ is discipled; it is not schooled in classrooms...

The first WORD of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "REPENT..."

THAT is an action of obedience, and not a tenet assented to...

Arsenios

The holy spirit is the teacher, comforter, giver of discipline and strength.

Have you never heard of Gods chastening? That's discipline.

What you are talking about is the beginning of the Church, before we had scripture to guide us. Can Church leaders today still give discipline to the babes? Yes, but that doesnt make them apostles.

 

[Arsenios]

The holy spirit is the teacher, comforter, giver of discipline and strength.

The Holy Spirit in the Ekonomia [household] of God is not the One Christ sent to all the nations for the sake of discipling them...

Have you never heard of Gods chastening? That's discipline.

We are not talking about disciplining, but discipling...

What you are talking about is the beginning of the Church, before we had scripture to guide us.

Yes - Thomas, for instance, went East to India, and started the Indian Church, appointing Bishops and becoming a martyr... There were, as well, the 70 who were also Apostles, just not of the 12, who also went out... Paul came by a different route... He was not the last of the Apostles, but was the first of those who followed the 12 and the 70...

Can Church leaders today still give discipline to the babes? Yes, but that doesn't make them apostles.

The Church disciples those willing to be discipled... It does not impose discipline on the unwilling...

"If anyone is willing...
After Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...[repentance]
Then...
Take up his own cross...[enhanced repentance]
And follow Me..."

Christ's words...

That is how Christ established His Faith on earth, in the Apostolic Churches, discipling the nations, teaching them to meticulously observe ALL that He had commanded them to be doing, baptizing them... That is how the Household of God works...

The Orthodox Church has been discipling the nations consistently and very uniformly for 2000 years now...

That never stops, nor should it...

The discipling of the nations is unto the Salvation of their souls...

Arsenios

 

[Extraneous]

The Holy Spirit in the Ekonomia [household] of God is not the One Christ sent to all the nations for the sake of discipling them...

So in other words, God sent Jesus, who promised the holy spirit as our teacher, but you say there is another spirit teacher as well?



1 Father
2 Son
3 Holy Spirit
4 ????


Whos this forth spirit you are referring to?

 

[patricius79]

So in other words, God sent Jesus, who promised the holy spirit as our teacher, but you say there is another spirit teacher as well?



1 Father
2 Son
3 Holy Spirit
4 ????


Whos this forth spirit you are referring to?

St. Paul was an important co-worker with Christ. But that doesn't make him God. Mary, our Mediatrix with Christ and Co-Redemptrix is not God. She is the Mother of God.