The snare of devotion to Mary.

[patricius79]

I think it is right to kneel before icons of the Mother of God, out of reverence for God, since the icon represents Mary, through whom God comes to us.

Apparently the 2nd Council of Nicea, convened by the Catholic Church called Mary "without blemish" and "ever-virgin" and affirmed that it is right to venerate icons of Christ, our Lady, and the Saints:

The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration {latria} in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects. Further, people are drawn to honour these images with the offering of incense and lights, as was piously established by ancient custom. Indeed, the honour paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model, and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum07.htm

 

[Arsenios]

Given the Vatican style of altars, this could be one in a Roman Catholic Church, yes. You do see what could be used as an altar/table showing in that picture, and it appears to have a faircloth upon it.

You may be right to say it's not, but unless we could see the whole thing close-up, I don't know that we can say which it is.

The statuary definitely takes it out of the Orthodox realm...

So it is a Latin Catholic place...

Our Altars are, when not abbreviated due to space limitations, tables 42" square, and 42" high...

Nothing like that there, nor an iconostasis - Just that little railing to keep folks at a distance...

And the one who put it there is not giving us too many clues...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I think it is right to kneel before icons of the Mother of God, out of reverence for God, since the icon represents Mary, through whom God comes to us.

We not only kneel before Her, but prostrate ourselves before Her, at Her Holy Icon...

This at the conclusion of the Service of the Akathist to the Mother of God...

And at other times as the Spirit moves...

For She is there, where the icon is...

Apparently the 2nd Council of Nicea,

Do you mean the 7th Ecumenical Council where Tarasius invited the Sees of Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch and Alexandria to Constantinople to convene a council, and from there it was moved to Nicea, where it was opened by the delegate from Constantinople?

convened by the Catholic Church

Pope Adrian did not convene it, but Patriarch Tarasius did... Pope Adrian was insisting on Eastern Orthodox submission to the Latin Pope as they returned from their iconoclastic errors...

called Mary "without blemish" and "ever-virgin" and affirmed that it is right to venerate icons of Christ, our Lady, and the Saints:

As well they should, because she is...

The more frequently they are seen in representational art, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these images the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration {latria} in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred cult objects. Further, people are drawn to honour these images with the offering of incense and lights, as was piously established by ancient custom. Indeed, the honour paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model, and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum07.htm

Yes, this is the council of the Triumph of Orthodoxy regarding the Sacred Images, where the honor paid before the image "passes through" (your translation uses 'traverses') to the person of the one venerated...

None of the Patriarchs attended this Council, but all sent delegates, and the delegates sorted things out well enough that the Council, being accepted over time, became Ecumenical...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

We not only kneel before Her, but prostrate ourselves before Her, at Her Holy Icon...

This at the conclusion of the Service of the Akathist to the Mother of God...

And at other times as the Spirit moves...

For She is there, where the icon is...



Do you mean the 7th Ecumenical Council where Tarasius invited the Sees of Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch and Alexandria to Constantinople to convene a council, and from there it was moved to Nicea, where it was opened by the delegate from Constantinople?



Pope Adrian did not convene it, but Patriarch Tarasius did... Pope Adrian was insisting on Eastern Orthodox submission to the Latin Pope as they returned from their iconoclastic errors...



As well they should, because she is...



Yes, this is the council of the Triumph of Orthodoxy regarding the Sacred Images, where the honor paid before the image "passes through" (your translation uses 'traverses') to the person of the one venerated...

None of the Patriarchs attended this Council, but all sent delegates, and the delegates sorted things out well enough that the Council, being accepted over time, became Ecumenical...

Arsenios

I agree that Mary is there, where the icon is, and I think that is beautiful that you prostrate yourselves before her. What is "the Service of the Akathist to the Holy Mother of God"? I'm not very smart, and I don't know much history. I know that nothing can be settled in the Catholic Church without the approval of the Vicar of Christ. So of course we will disagree some there. But I don't want to get into any kind of implication the West is better than the East, or the East is better than the West. We're all just people. think it's good to focus on what we agree on in regard to the Mother of God, especially as devotion to Mary is the topic of this thread.

 

[Arsenios]

I agree that Mary is there, where the icon is, and I think that is beautiful that you prostrate yourselves before her. What is "the Service of the Akathist to the Holy Mother of God"? I'm not very smart, and I don't know much history. I know that nothing can be settled in the Catholic Church without the approval of the Vicar of Christ. So of course we will disagree some there. But I don't want to get into any kind of implication the West is better than the East, or the East is better than the West. We're all just people. think it's good to focus on what we agree on in regard to the Mother of God, especially as devotion to Mary is the topic of this thread.

An akathist is a song of praise in twelve parts that glorifies the Savior, the Mother of God, a saint....
An akathist may be read or sung, or read with the refrains ...

Taken from: http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/services_nopriest.aspx

I agree that lay people will not heal the schism...
That we need to love one another...

But we cannot gloss over our differences either...
For they are profound...

Arsenios

 

[Panevino]

All right. However, here's the sequence of posts...

The picture was of women in kneeling in front of an altar with an icon and statues of the Madonna. It was presented as evidence of saint worship. You followed that by saying this:


Since you introduced the idea of the Mass and were commenting on the previous claim about the picture, you can see why anyone would think you were saying that it showed us something about Mass.

The following is a bit clearer (hopefully) about my comment on the picture posted
"..
I brought up the different views of what constitutes worship between Catholics and some Protestants as a way of highlighting that there is a fundamental difference that may be missed by some Protestants when accusing catholics of idolatry I.e. The main difference is with/without the Catholic view of the mass. Some Protestants whose tradition took a different path separating from the Catholic view of the mass have different parameters on what worship looks like and is. To these particular Protestants praying to Mary and seeking intercessions from her (including kneeling) and other saints appears like their form of worship. What they forget is that for Catholics worship is something else it involves primarily participation in the mass/the sacrifice of our High priest and Eucharistic adoration etc.. This is the centre of Catholic life while seeking marys intercession and our view of her as a mother of Disciples is beautiful but at the same time very different to what is contemplated at worship during the mass/adoration..."

 

[bbbbbbb]

The following is a bit clearer (hopefully) about my comment on the picture posted
"..
I brought up the different views of what constitutes worship between Catholics and some Protestants as a way of highlighting that there is a fundamental difference that may be missed by some Protestants when accusing catholics of idolatry I.e. The main difference is with/without the Catholic view of the mass. Some Protestants whose tradition took a different path separating from the Catholic view of the mass have different parameters on what worship looks like and is. To these particular Protestants praying to Mary and seeking intercessions from her (including kneeling) and other saints appears like their form of worship. What they forget is that for Catholics worship is something else it involves primarily participation in the mass/the sacrifice of our High priest and Eucharistic adoration etc.. This is the centre of Catholic life while seeking marys intercession and our view of her as a mother of Disciples is beautiful but at the same time very different to what is contemplated at worship during the mass/adoration..."

One of your problems is that your co-religionis, Patricius, has confessed that what was being done in the photograph I supplied, was, indeed, the worship of Mary. I will give him very high marks for his integrity and honesty on this question.

 

[Panevino]

One of your problems is that your co-religionis, Patricius, has confessed that what was being done in the photograph I supplied, was, indeed, the worship of Mary. I will give him very high marks for his integrity and honesty on this question.

I'm not sure what you mean by co-religionis (do you mean religious pluralism?) and how did I give you that impression?

idolatry seeks to replace God. Like they did with the molten calf (i.e.."..These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.."Exo 32:8)

Catholics simply don't do that with Mary or the saints. To a Catholic, it is strange to suggest that we do, in light of our understanding of the mass and our participation in the mass. Seeking Mary intercession and honoring her is quite different to what is contemplated in mass and Eucharistic adoration.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not sure what you mean by co-religionis (do you mean religious pluralism?) and how did I give you that impression?

idolatry seeks to replace God. Like they did with the molten calf (i.e.."..These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.."Exo 32:8)

Catholics simply don't do that with Mary or the saints. To a Catholic, it is strange to suggest that we do, in light of our understanding of the mass and our participation in the mass. Seeking Mary intercession and honoring her is quite different to what is contemplated in mass and Eucharistic adoration.

Patricius is a member of your church denomnation. He seems to present himself as being truly Catholic. When he agrees that he engages in the worship of Mary (not merely reverence) then it is evident that he is according the same treatment of a creature as he does to the Creator, thus engaging in the idolatory of a human being.

 

[patricius79]

I'm not sure what you mean by co-religionis (do you mean religious pluralism?) and how did I give you that impression?

idolatry seeks to replace God. Like they did with the molten calf (i.e.."..These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.."Exo 32:8)

Catholics simply don't do that with Mary or the saints. To a Catholic, it is strange to suggest that we do, in light of our understanding of the mass and our participation in the mass. Seeking Mary intercession and honoring her is quite different to what is contemplated in mass and Eucharistic adoration.

I see what you are saying now, and you are right. Catholics worship Jesus in the Eucharist. Venerating Mary helps us to worship Jesus in the Eucharist. She is the Mother of the Eucharist.

 

[Arsenios]

Patricius ... engages in the worship of Mary
(not merely reverence)

Could you flesh out for me the difference between worship and reverence in terms of inner experience?

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

Patricius is a member of your church denomnation. He seems to present himself as being truly Catholic. When he agrees that he engages in the worship of Mary (not merely reverence) then it is evident that he is according the same treatment of a creature as he does to the Creator, thus engaging in the idolatory of a human being.

Where have I said that I or those people in that photograph engage in the worship of the Mother of God?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Could you flesh out for me the difference between worship and reverence in terms of inner experience?

Arsenios

I suggest that you address that queston to Patricius as he is the one who stated that he worships Mary.

 

[Arsenios]

I suggest that you address that queston to Patricius as he is the one who stated that he worships Mary.

I didn't see Patricius differentiate the two as you did when you parenthetically noted:
"Patricius ... engages in the worship of Mary
(not merely reverence)"

So perhaps I could reformulate the question:

What do you mean by reverence, and by worship, and what do you understand to be the difference?

The distinction seems to be important to you...

Arsenios

 

[patricius79]

I suggest that you address that queston to Patricius as he is the one who stated that he worships Mary.

I don't worship Mary. I did not say that I worship Mary. Please do not continue these accusations.

I do believe that Our Lady always helps us to worship God, Her Son, and especially when we ask her for her help.

 

[Albion]

Could you flesh out for me the difference between worship and reverence in terms of inner experience?

Arsenios

Wouldn't the difference be that reverence is an attitude of respect, perhaps special respect, whereas worship involves overt acts of adoration, as with the following dictionary definition?

"to render religious reverence and homage to."

Even the First Commandment makes this point by specifying the sorts of behaviors that constitute "worship" -- and they are present when the typical Roman Catholic "reverences" or "venerates" the Virgin Mary, however he chooses to describe what he's doing.

 

[patricius79]

Even the First Commandment makes this point by specifying the sorts of behaviors that constitute "worship" -- and they are present when the typical Roman Catholic "reverences" or "venerates" the Virgin Mary, however he chooses to describe what he's doing.

My understanding is that you are Anglican, and I would have thought that Anglicans accept the teachings of the 7th Ecumenical Council (Nicea 2)

Do you think that Moses did these behaviors when God appeared to him in the Burning Bush?

I think that if one is going to interpret the Commandments literalistically--rather than according to the light of the Incarnation and the Church-- then they would have to keep the Sabbath too.

 

[Arsenios]

Wouldn't the difference be that reverence is an attitude of respect, perhaps special respect, whereas worship involves overt acts of adoration, as with the following dictionary definition?

"to render religious reverence and homage to."

Even the First Commandment makes this point by specifying the sorts of behaviors that constitute "worship" -- and they are present when the typical Roman Catholic "reverences" or "venerates" the Virgin Mary, however he chooses to describe what he's doing.

Thank-you - Most do not seem to want to address the issue of the ontological difference in the soul of a person between worship and veneration...

The actual ontology of the Saints is that they to a very great degree possess Christ IN them...

And that of the Theotokos is that She more than any has Christ IN Her...

And of the Christ is that He it is Who is in the Saints and in the Theotokos...

So that when we reverence an Icon, we are worshiping Christ...

Because Christ is so much of the person represented in the Icon...

We kneel before the icon - Today's Feast is that of St. Anthony whose iconic depiction we reverence - and we cross ourselves and bow before him and kiss him, and we may even prostrate ourselves before him at his icon, and all these actions are actions of reverence and worship... And yet, they are not the worship of St. Anthony, but of Christ IN him, and he in Christ... It is that union, that Marriage of God and man, that IS St. Anthony now, for he and Christ are ONE...

This is why Saints are miracle workers in various degrees, for there are varying degrees of union with Christ, as one repents from self more and more, and Christ's will in such a person becomes more and more as the self-will of the person becomes less and less. Just as John the Baptist described himself in relation to Christ...

And we conduct ourselves no differently when we stand before an icon of, and are thereby in the presence of Christ, or the Theotokos, or a venerable Saint... And inwardly as well, our manner of supplication is the same before all three...

So that perhaps, I hope, the proper framing of the matter can avoid the red herring of worship vs veneration in the soul of the faithful person in the presence of icons... And we know that Christ is an Ikon of the Father, and is OUR Father, and that we are to icon Christ in our lives by following Him in the Faith He gave to us...

And that He did NOT give us a Bible and a printing press, but instead He gave us the Faith of our Fathers, Living Faith... The Bible was written years AFTER His Death on the Cross... By those who were KEEPING His Commandments...

Arsenios

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't worship Mary. I did not say that I worship Mary. Please do not continue these accusations.

I do believe that Our Lady always helps us to worship God, Her Son, and especially when we ask her for her help.

I posted this picture and asked what the individual was doing -

You replied that the individual was engaged in worship, which I agree with entirely.

I then posted this picture and asked what these individuals were doing -

You responded that they also were worshipping. To which I said that they were prostrate before an image of Mary, therefore indicating that you also accept the fact that Catholics do, indeed, engage in the worship of Mary.

Now you deny that you ever posted your responses. I had held you up as an honest man, but it seems that my opinion of you was in error. I apologize for my error.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank-you - Most do not seem to want to address the issue of the ontological difference in the soul of a person between worship and veneration...

The actual ontology of the Saints is that they to a very great degree possess Christ IN them...

And that of the Theotokos is that She more than any has Christ IN Her...

And of the Christ is that He it is Who is in the Saints and in the Theotokos...

So that when we reverence an Icon, we are worshiping Christ...

Because Christ is so much of the person represented in the Icon...

We kneel before the icon - Today's Feast is that of St. Anthony whose iconic depiction we reverence - and we cross ourselves and bow before him and kiss him, and we may even prostrate ourselves before him at his icon, and all these actions are actions of reverence and worship... And yet, they are not the worship of St. Anthony, but of Christ IN him, and he in Christ... It is that union, that Marriage of God and man, that IS St. Anthony now, for he and Christ are ONE...

This is why Saints are miracle workers in various degrees, for there are varying degrees of union with Christ, as one repents from self more and more, and Christ's will in such a person becomes more and more as the self-will of the person becomes less and less. Just as John the Baptist described himself in relation to Christ...

And we conduct ourselves no differently when we stand before an icon of, and are thereby in the presence of Christ, or the Theotokos, or a venerable Saint... And inwardly as well, our manner of supplication is the same before all three...

So that perhaps, I hope, the proper framing of the matter can avoid the red herring of worship vs veneration in the soul of the faithful person in the presence of icons... And we know that Christ is an Ikon of the Father, and is OUR Father, and that we are to icon Christ in our lives by following Him in the Faith He gave to us...

And that He did NOT give us a Bible and a printing press, but instead He gave us the Faith of our Fathers, Living Faith... The Bible was written years AFTER His Death on the Cross... By those who were KEEPING His Commandments...

Arsenios

You have a nicely nuanced understanding of worship which, unfortunately, has never been evidenced by Patricius. I can appreciate your understanding, but I have no evidence that he shares your views. He might, but then he might not.

Not wanting to put words in his mouth, I have left it up to him to provide a response. In his understanding it appears that he does not worship anyone other than God. This is a very standard Catholic response, which, unfortunately, leaves open the question as to what actions constitute worship versus reverence as the actions are very similar with both icons of God and Christ and those of various Saints.

Concerning the Bible, you are quite mistaken. The Old Testament was written long before the Christian era and was recognized by the Jewish community as holy scripture. Whether or not your denomination accepts their understanding of scripture does not change the fact that these writings were undertaken long before your saints were ever born.