The Seven Last Plagues

BobRyan

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“A day in Bible prophecy always equals a year.”

If this rule has no exception, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 should be translated as 365,242 years. (365.242 days per year x 1,000 years = 365,242 years)

True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??

Bob, you asked me this question in post 13, "True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??"

Answer: There is not such a claim, because your stating something we don't believe. Your error is in what I highlighted in bold. Our Historical method of interpretation in the area of timing is subject to apocalyptic prophecy only, not all scripture as you state it.
Proof of this is in all of our material covering the time elements in these prophecies.
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Tim - I was just responding to the statement you made about "a day in prophecy always equals a year" idea suggesting apparently that SDAs had that as a teaching which we do not. A good example of how that can bee seen is in Daniel 9 - where it starts with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah and ends with the 70 week day-for-year timeline that points to the Messiah's coming.
 
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BobRyan

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Should you be more interested in understanding the time span of the Jubilee Calendar I will sent you the material. .

I do have one question - why do you start your jubiliee calendar scope in the 5th century B.C. - when it most certainly had to start at the time of Moses?
 
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Tim Ray

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True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??



Tim - I was just responding to the statement you made about "a day in prophecy always equals a year" idea suggesting apparently that SDAs had that as a teaching which we do not. A good example of how that can bee seen is in Daniel 9 - where it starts with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah and ends with the 70 week day-for-year timeline that points to the Messiah's coming.

Bob, in answer to your statement above, your correct in that we(SDA's) do not translate Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy as day/yr. The reason Adventist don't, based on the Historical method of interpretation and based on the law I shared with you earlier, is that it either case Jeremiah's prophecy referenced in (Dan. 9:2) is not, an apocalyptic prophecy. Therefore, the 70 years need not be translated. Only the prophecies given to Daniel and John (Rev.) are apocalyptic. Apocalyptic prophecy is structured prophecy, having a beginning point in time and a ending point in time and all the elements within that prophecy will happen in the order revealed by God. Examples; (Dan.2,7,8,9) In total there are five prophecies in Daniel, and twelve in Rev. To interpret Apocalyptic prophecy correctly valid laws must be applied.

Hope this helps.
 
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Tim Ray

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I do have one question - why do you start your jubiliee calendar scope in the 5th century B.C. - when it most certainly had to start at the time of Moses?

Yes, according to (Exodus 12:2) God gave Moses and his people the Jubilee Calendar. And the Israelites had centuries to grasp that the Jubilee Calendar measured time in units of forty-nine year cycles (seven weeks of years, day/yr.). So when God gave Daniel and John prophecies having elements of time in them during the ongoing duration of the Jubilee Calendar this unit of timing is used.
Outside of the Jubilee Calendar time is literal.
 
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BobRyan

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Outside of the Jubilee Calendar time is literal.

Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy referenced by Daniel in Dan 9 would still be going on in that case. But since this is limited to apocalyptic time prophecy - then Jeremiah is not included in the day-for-year rule.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, in answer to your statement above, your correct in that we(SDA's) do not translate Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy as day/yr. The reason Adventist don't, based on the Historical method of interpretation and based on the law I shared with you earlier, is that it either case Jeremiah's prophecy referenced in (Dan. 9:2) is not, an apocalyptic prophecy.

Indeed. So it is not all prophecy, nor all time prophecy, but it is all apocalyptic time prophecy that is using day-for-year.

That's what I have always heard.
 
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Tim Ray

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Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy referenced by Daniel in Dan 9 would still be going on in that case. But since this is limited to apocalyptic time prophecy - then Jeremiah is not included in the day-for-year rule.

Thats right. God sent Israel into seventy years of captivity because they did not give the land seventy Sabbaths of rest in keeping with the Jubilee Calendar during their occupation. God wanted Israel to live by faith. He made clear their responsibility as recorded in (Lev. 26:14-35)

"the land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah." (2 Chronicles 36:21)
 
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Tim Ray

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Bob, in post #11, you stated, the daily service that began at Christ's ascension...

I’m posting these insights because many christians including Adventist do not understand what the daily symbolized. Give special attention to the Altar of Incense.

Two Altars
There were two altars in the earthly temple because there are two altars in Heaven’s temple. The Altar of Burnt Offering was located near the entrance of the courtyard that surrounded the Tent of Meeting and the Altar of Incense was located in the front room of the tent, or the Holy Place.

There are two altars for atonement because God is concerned with two levels of sin: individual sin and corporate sin. The Altar of Burnt Offering was covered with bronze and the Altar of Incense was covered with gold. This difference in medals indicates there is a difference in processing these two types of sin.

The bronze Altar of Burnt Offering served the needs of individuals, and the golden Altar of Incense served a higher purpose, the needs of the whole community. Both altars had four horns jutting from their four corners. Throughout the Bible, horns symbolize an entity of power. ( Psalm 75:10; 112:9; Jeremiah 48:25; Luke 1:69; Revelation 17:12)

Within the context of these altars, the four horns represent the omnipresent work of the Holy Spirit throughout the four corners of Earth: North, East, South, and West. ( Zechariah 1:18-21; 4:6; John 16:7-11)
He is everywhere at once!

Sinners are Forgiven
Many Bible writers speak about our sins being forgiven ( Leviticus 5:13; Romans 4:7), but it is the sinner who is forgiven, not the sin. This distinction is so important because we need to understand that God has a process to deal with the disposal of sin. The disposal of sin involves a legal concept called vengeance.

God’s vengeance is a twofold process that will finally culminate at the end of the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. God’s vengeance involves the extraction of restitution from those people unwilling to provide appropriate restitution (judicial equilibrium), and His vengeance also involves destroying everyone who refused the indwelling authority of the Holy Spirit.

Judicial equilibrium is the balance between our behavior toward others and our accountability for the welfare of others. Judicial equilibrium is found in the golden rule: “As you do unto others, the same shall be done unto you” and “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged . . . .” (See Matthew 7:2,12)
God’s kingdom is not a republic nor a democracy. It is a monarchy.

Sin Is Not Forgiven
Sinners can be freed from the penalty of their sins even though their sins are not forgotten. At first, this statement may appear contradictory. Many Christians believe that Jesus died for us and that somehow all of our sins have been forgiven! But there is much more to the disposal of the toxic waste of sin than is commonly known.

All sinners are under the curse of eternal death unless our guilt is removed. The wages of sin is death. ( Romans 6:23) Sin is the transgression of God’s law. (Leviticus 26; Deuteronomy 28; 1 John 3:4) However, if a person is ignorant of a specific sin, God does not hold the sinner accountable for that sin until the sinner becomes properly informed. (Leviticus 4; 1 Timothy 1:13; James 4:17)

When a person commits any sin, he or she violates the whole law. (James 2:10) Sinful acts cannot be recalled or erased because they are a matter of record. The unrelenting claim o f God’s law is this: “Once a sinner, always a sinner.” This is why God evicted Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 3:22-24)

The consequences for violating God’s moral law occur whether we are knowledgeable or ignorant of the offense. This is why the Bible says, “. . . Be sure your sin will find you out.” (Numbers 32:23) Do not let this discourage you because the Plan of Salvation offers a way out of condemnation.

The Father has provided a perfect substitute to receive the guilt of our sins and through the blood of Jesus, our guilt can be transferred to the horns of Heaven’s Altar of Burnt Offering! The result is that repentant believers who put their faith in Jesus are no longer under condemnation. (See Romans 5 and 8:1-12.)

Reviewing the Sin Offering
The service at the Altar of Burnt Offering lays a conceptual foundation for other temple services, so keep the following seven points in mind as we progress through this study:

1. The bronze Altar of Burnt Offering served the needs of individuals.

2. The sinner was required to make restitution before presenting a sacrificial offering.

3. The guilt of the sinner was transferred to the lamb by confession and the death of the lamb transferred the guilt to the horns of the altar.

4. The blood on the horns of the altar was as a record of sin. Until the altar was cleansed on the Day of Atonement, the temple was in a state of desecration.

5. Excess blood from the sacrifice was poured into a small basin at the base of the altar. ( Leviticus 4:25)

6. Sin, whether unintentional or intentional, requires atonement.

7. Defiant sin cannot be forgiven (atoned for).

The Altar of Incense
The golden Altar of Incense was physically located in the first room of the earthly temple called the Holy Place. Like the Altar of Burnt Offering, this altar also had four horns, one on each corner of the altar. However, there are several significant differences between these two altars.

For example, it was the priests’ responsibility to keep the fire on the Altar of Burnt Offering burning around the clock ( Leviticus 6:12,13), but it is believed the Altar of Incense burned perpetually.

Miraculously, God Himself ignited and sustained the fire on the golden Altar of Incense and it never went out. (Note: This conclusion is reached by harmonizing the following two points: Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, carried “foreign” or man-made fire into the Holy Place and God struck them dead for it. ( Leviticus 10:1-3) Further, the Bible does not indicate that the priests maintained the fire on this altar as it does for the other altar. These two points suggest the fire on the Altar of Incense was sustained by divine power.)

Evening and morning, the priests burned a special formula of incense on the Altar of Incense. God forbade anyone from duplicating this incense. ( Exodus 30:34-38) In the wilderness, the Israelites could smell the distinctive aroma of this incense, depending upon the wind, at the limits of the camp. ( Exodus 30:7,8)

Like the Altar of Burnt Offering, the Altar of Incense was named according to its primary purpose which was the continual burning of incense.

Corporate Atonement
The services at the golden Altar of Incense represent a higher level of atonement than those at the bronze altar in the courtyard. These services are a little more difficult to understand at first because they are shadows of a larger process that takes place in Heaven. The Altar of Incense was reserved for corporate atonement, that is, intercession on behalf of the whole community.

Priests conducted services at the Altar of Incense, evening and morning, every day of the year. God required continual atonement, night and day. This was done so that Israel could dwell in His continual presence. In other words, atonement for sin was ongoing, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

If an individual or a group of individuals sinned, the continual sacrifice on the Altar of Incense provided atonement for everyone until they could present their necessary sacrifices at the Altar of Burnt Offering. The daily atonement made on the Altar of Incense allowed the Israelites to dwell in God’s continual presence without being destroyed. ( Exodus 25:8)

The object lesson found within this service is stunning. We know that sinners cannot approach God or live in His presence without mediation or atonement. ( Numbers 8:19) But through the sacrifice of Jesus, God extends much grace to us, hoping that we will eventually show up at the Altar of Burnt Offering for the purpose of reconciliation with Him and be saved.

The beauty of grace can be observed here since we are not consumed while wandering about in foolish rebellion! “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!” ( Romans 5:10)

Called the Daily or the Continual
The evening and morning services presented on the Altar of Incense were called “the daily” or “the continual” because they were administered evening and morning – every day of the year – continually. The services included the sacrifice of a perfect one-year-old lamb each evening at twilight and each morning just after sunrise. After the priest killed the “daily” lamb on the Altar of Burnt Offering (in the courtyard), he carried some of its blood to the Altar of Incense and applied it to the horns and sides of the altar.

Then the priest placed a scoop of the special incense (using God’s specifications) on the glowing coals of the altar. Then the fragrant incense flowed freely throughout the tabernacle. In addition to the blood and incense, priests also placed small servings of wheat or barley flour, oil and wine before the Lord as offerings. ( Exodus 29:40,41; 30:9)

The reality in Heaven which is represented by the daily services at the golden altar on Earth is very meaningful. Whereas the sin offering on the Altar of Burnt Offering pointed forward to the death of Jesus as the Lamb of God at Calvary, the service on the Altar of Incense pointed backwards to the day sin began.
On that day, the Father and Son established a mutual covenant to save the whole world! ( Psalms 2)

Psalm 2
When Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus entered into a covenant with the Father agreeing to die as man’s substitute. ( Psalm 2; Genesis 3:15; Romans 5:19; Matthew 26:28; John 17:4) When Jesus submitted to the terms and conditions required in the Plan of Salvation, He agreed to overcome the power of sin by living a perfect life and dying the death of a condemned sinner. ( Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

In fact, from the very day that Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus was called the “Son” of God. “I will proclaim the decree of the Lord [the Father]: He said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.’ ” ( Psalms 2:7-9, insertion mine.)

The word son means “one subject to” or “one in submission to someone like himself.” Consequently, Adam is called the “son of God” and so are all believers because we are created in God’s image. ( Luke 3:38; Matthew 5:9; 1 John 3:1 [KJV]) The covenant between the Father and Jesus to save man stopped the destroying angel who was about to execute Adam and Eve. On the basis of an agreement between the Father and Jesus, Jesus became man’s intercessor the day sin began and He remains in this position even on this very day. ( Hebrews 7:25)

The law given to Adam in Genesis 2:17 is clear – any violation would result in a swift penalty. However, Jesus stepped in the way by offering His life, and every day since that moment, His covenant with the Father has stood between guilty man and the righteous demands of God’s law. This is why Jesus is called man’s Intercessor. (Hebrews 7:25)

The daily intercession of Jesus in Heaven’s temple is reflected in the daily ministry of the priests on Earth. “The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.” ( Hebrews 8:1,2)

The Father allowed Adam and Eve and their offspring to live because of the daily intercession of Jesus. The corporate benefits of Christ’s atonement for the whole world became effective immediately, the day sin began. The covenant to save man is called the Plan of Salvation and it remains intact to this very day.

The corporate intercession of Jesus on behalf of the whole world will continue until the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

The Great Tribulation begins when Jesus declares the end of His corporate intercession. ( Revelation 10:6) When this happens, the censer at Heaven’s golden Altar of Incense ( Revelation 8:2-5) will be cast down indicating the services required at that altar are finished. A few days after the censer in Heaven is cast down, the long-delayed wrath of God for the whole world will begin.

God’s wrath will come in two phases, seven first plagues and seven last plagues. Although the corporate intercession of Jesus comes to an end at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, the door of salvation remains open for individuals because Jesus continues to intercede on behalf of individuals for 1,260 days – until the time of the seventh trumpet.

Altar of Incense Summary
Here are six summary points about the Altar of Incense:

1. The Altar of Incense was dedicated to corporate services for the whole community.

2. The daily services on this altar provided continual or daily around-the-clock atonement.

3. The services conducted on the Altar of Incense point backwards to the covenant that was established between the Father and the Son the day man sinned.

4. The daily intercession of Jesus in Heaven will terminate at a point in the near future and the Great Tribulation will begin.

5. Twice a day, evening and morning, atonement was placed on this altar.

6. The Altar of Incense was cleansed of defilement or reconsecrated on the Day of Atonement.
 
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reddogs

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God started the Jubilee Calendar two weeks before the exodus, in the spring of 1437 BC. It was in operation for 70 Jubilee cycles, 3430 yrs., ended in 1994.
This sounds like JW ideas as I remember the same thing being said.
 
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Tim Ray

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This sounds like JW ideas as I remember the same thing being said.

Reddogs, According to(Ex. 12:2) The Jubilee calendar was put in place two weeks before the exodus. This is why the day/year translation is need in some time elements in prophecy. We know it was in operation through the operation of the 2300 day prophecy of (Dan. 8) which takes us down to 1844, right? It appears when all the piece of prophecy are alighted that God has predetermined 70 Jubilee cycles for it's operation.

I have never herd the JW take on this subject. However, if it were similar or the same, does that mean it couldn't be true? Are Adventist the only individuals with any truth? Truth is discovered when we find the harmony of the sum of all it's parts, not by who's mouth it comes out of.

What are your thoughts on my previous post on the Daily. Is the explanation in line with your understanding. Or in what way did it make it more understandable?
 
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reddogs

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I have to admit that "outside the dates of 1437B.C. to 1944 AD all apocalyptic timelines are day-for-day" instead of the classic historicist Protestant "Day for year" -- is not an idea I hear much about inside or outside the SDA church.



I was raised in an SDA family and in college I majored in sciences - first going down the path of biophysics then switching to computer science.

As you can see from my screen name profile here - I have over 30,000 post events on this forum and there are several other forums where over the years that same number seems to keep coming up related to my profile. Which only means I like sharing what I know about the gospel and how the word of God presents that "one" gospel in all ages.

I married a nursing student from SMC while in my early twenties and we have 2 children that are now adults both of whom also graduated with computer science engineering degrees.. As a family we are very focused on Bible study and sharing with others - I tend to focus a lot in the area of sharing with non-SDAs.
Where you there when John Beckett was teaching?
 
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BobRyan

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What are your thoughts on my previous post on the Daily. Is the explanation in line with your understanding. Or in what way did it make it more understandable?

You have both altars in use for the daily service - and you extend "altar of incense" use back to Adam. While I agree that Christ's role in the Gospel goes back to Adam - I think He was operating in His "warrior" mode at that time "God the Son - Michael". Remember all of the sanctuary is simply a visual aide to "explain" the Gospel to finite beings. Christ took up His role as High Priest at the cross - not before.
 
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reddogs

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Here are some sobering things from SOP as since the pandemic we are seeing friends, family and acquaintances pass away, some from one day to the next with no warning.

It is not always safe to ask for unconditional healing.... He knows whether or not those for whom petitions are offered would be able to endure the trial and test that would come upon them if they lived. He knows the end from the beginning. Many will be laid away to sleep before the fiery ordeal of the time of trouble shall come upon our world.—Counsels on Health, 375 (1892). LDE 255.2

The Lord has often instructed me that many little ones are to be laid away before the time of trouble. We shall see our children again. We shall meet them and know them in the heavenly courts.—Selected Messages 2:259 (1899).
 
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