The Seven Last Plagues

[reddogs]

The Seven Last Plagues are sent by God from heaven, angels pour out vials of His wraith upon the face of the earth …
- Grievous sores
- Fresh water sources become like blood
- Oceans also become like blood
- The sun scorching men with great heat
- A great darkness
- The Euphrates River drying up and unclean spirits
- And a destructive earthquake.

The Bible doesn’t give us a specific date for these plagues, but it does say that just before the second coming of Jesus, they will befall on the earth.

They are similar to the plagues that fell on Egypt and will happen in the last days. They came just before the Jews were freed from slavery much like the saints are going to be freed from the bondage of sin at the second coming. So lets look at them..

The Seven Last Plagues...

Daniel 12:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The plagues fall AFTER the close of probation. Dan. 12:1-2; (EW 36)

Revelation 16:1-16 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Plagues 1 to 4 are NOT universal. Rev. 16:1-11, These Plagues are not universal." (GC 628) Plagues 5 is on the seat of the beast and the 6th plague you see the gathering of the" kings of the earth and of the WHOLE world" to the battle of Armageddon is universal. Revelation 16:14,16.

Revelation 16:17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The 7th plague - A great earthquake, "the cities of the nation fell", "every island fled away, and the mountains were not found"- is universal. Verses 17-21; (GC 637)

We see the plagues are CUMULATIVE. Rev. 16:11. The "sores" of the first plague still continue when the 5th plague falls.

SOP tells us that the plagues are SUCCESSIVE. "Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. (7BC 982) The plagues fall in a brief, indeterminate period of time. (7BC 857)

 

[reddogs]

Here is the Seven Last Plagues and I have never really seen with such clarity and precision.

The Seven Last Plagues

 

[Tim Ray]

Daniel 12:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The plagues fall AFTER the close of probation. Dan. 12:1-2; (EW 36

Daniel 12:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The plagues fall AFTER the close of probation. Dan. 12:1-2; (EW 36)

Reddogs, I agree the seven last plagues/bowl judgements, come after the close of probation/the seven first judgements the seven trumpets. However, I do not believe (Dan.12:1,2) is in reference to the last plagues specifically. In vss. 5-13 Daniel hears the man in linen [Micheal] telling the two angels this time of distress mentioned in (vs. 1), shall be for, “a time, times and a half a time.” and adds more time and info about this time period in (v.11)

(Vs.11) I believe gives the starting date of this time of “distress” (11) “ From the time that the daily is abolished” and further adds, from that starting time until the “abomination that causes desolations set up, there will be 1,290 days.” Then after informing Daniel of this length of time, [Michael/ second member of the God head] goes on to say in vs.(12) Blessed is the one who waits for and reached the end of the 1,335 days, which seems to be the total length of this time of “distress”, mentioned in (vs.1).

I’m sure my following questions will put you in a uncomfortable position for the following reasons: First, you quoted Mrs. White. Second, we as Adventist interpret this time period as a day for a year, meaning the, “time of distress”, in (Dan. 12:1) which you used to support the seven last plagues would last for 1260 literal yrs. (A.D.538-1798, SDA Bible commentary, vol. 4, pg. 880)

However, (vs.12) makes it clear that their will be those who understand this prophecy before it comes to pass and will life to see the end as well, and be blessed. Should Adventists continue to interpreted this as a literal day/year, how is it possible for mankind with a average lifespan of 75-85 yrs., to witness both the beginning and the end of the 1,335 days if we interpret it as literal years? This reasoning puts the prophecy in a state of internal conflict.

Note too vs. (13) Daniel is told that,” he will rest” [in death] “and, at the end of the days,” [1,335] “you [Daniel] will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.” This vs. states, that, at the end of the 1,335 days Jesus will return to gather His saints, and Daniel will be among them. (Vss.1 and 2)) confirm this as well.

It seems clear to me this prophecy is stating the total time of “distress/tribulation” will last a literal 1335 days of which the seven first plague/seven trumpets and the seven last plages are both included. If we accept this reasoning then and only then does the prophecy make sense just as it reads without any internal conflict.

Care to comment?

 

[reddogs]

Verse 2 clearly tells you, as it is the resurrection at the Second Coming..

Daniel 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Tim Ray]

Verse 2 clearly tells you, as it is the resurrection at the Second Coming..

Daniel 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Reddogs, Was hoping to get a comment on, time, times and half a time an the 1,290 & 1335 days of (Dan. 12: 7 & 11) Are they in the past, or future, literal or interpreted day/yr.,? Yes, I agree Jesus returns after this portion of prophecy is fulfilled.

 

[BobRyan]

Reddogs, Was hoping to get a comment on, time, times and half a time an the 1,290 & 1335 days of (Dan. 12: 7 & 11) Are they in the past, or future, literal or interpreted day/yr.,? Yes, I agree Jesus returns after this portion of prophecy is fulfilled.

They use the same day for year model that we see in Dan 7,8,9 ... 70 weeks. So they are past at this point.

What is changing is the start point
508 A.D, 538 A.D.

 

[Tim Ray]

They use the same day for year model that we see in Dan 7,8,9 ... 70 weeks. So they are past at this point.

Bob
I do think it is correct to interpret the timing of (Dan. 7,8, and 9) as a day for a year. However, do you understand why God uses the Day/Year principal in these prophecies?

Having said that, I don't believe the timing used in (Dan. 12:7, 11) is the same day/yr. for the simple reason that in doing so creates a internal conflict within this portion of the prophecy. Vs.12. states: "blessed is the one who waits for, and reaches the end of the 1335 days" (NIV). If this timing is day/year as we Adventist interpret it, the verse makes no sense as no human could live to see the beginning of this time span and the end as well. Do you see the problem?

It is only when we come to understand there are prophecies when God uses the Day/yr. principal and there are times when He does not, that this conflict is cleared up and the prophecy makes perfect sense just as it reads.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
I do think it is correct to interpret the timing of (Dan. 7,8, and 9) as a day for a year. However, do you understand why God uses the Day/Year principal in these prophecies?

Having said that, I don't believe the timing used in (Dan. 12:7, 11) is the same day/yr. for the simple reason that in doing so creates a internal conflict within this portion of the prophecy. Vs.12. states: "blessed is the one who waits for, and reaches the end of the 1335 days" (NIV). If this timing is day/year as we Adventist interpret it, the verse makes no sense as no human could live to see the beginning of this time span and the end as well. Do you see the problem?

It is only when we come to understand there are prophecies when God uses the Day/yr. principal and there are times when He does not, that this conflict is cleared up and the prophecy makes perfect sense just as it reads.

The text does not say anything about someone alive at the start and also at the end. It only mentions the end.

12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

Phil 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

That Phil 3 statement about Paul attaining to the resurrection of the dead - is not about Paul living for 2000 years and then all the way to the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
I do think it is correct to interpret the timing of (Dan. 7,8, and 9) as a day for a year. However, do you understand why God uses the Day/Year principal in these prophecies?

For the same reasons He uses it in Rev 11,12,13 I would imagine.. It gives the reader an impression of a shorter length of time rather than saying "you have 4,000 more years to wait"

 

[Tim Ray]

The text does not say anything about someone alive at the start and also at the end. It only mentions the end.

12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

Phil 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Bob you switched the translations of (Dan.12:12) on me, I had posted the NIV translation which I believe is easier to understand. F.Y.I., I prefer the NIV. The (CBS) Chrlstian Standard Bible reads: Happy is the one who waits for an reaches 1335 days. The (EASY) EasyEnglish Bible reads: The people who wait in a patient way for 1335 days will be happy. The (AMP) reads: How blessed [happy, fortunate, spiritually prosperous] and beloved is he who waits expectantly[enduring without wavering for the period of tribulation] and comes to the 1335 days. I could quote other translations as well, but it seems to me they convey the idea, that a blessing comes to those who witness the total sum of the "1335 days".

The translation you posted reads in part, "attains to the 1,335 days". The definition of the word attains means: to strive for a goal; to reach as an end; to come into possession of; to come to as the end of a progression or course of movement. They attained the top of the hill. attain a ripe old age. intransitive verb.

So based on these definitions it seems to me your translation as well is conveying the same thought. Because the 1335 days is the goal, the end, the end of the progression or course. And the blessing is for only those who witness the 1335 days, not those who witness 1100, or 1290 days.

However, since you understand them too be literal, I'm assuming you understand the 1335 days/yrs., to span A.D. 508-1798. Is this correct?

Changing gears, to vs.11, do you understand the "daily" to be paganism, or the continue priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
I do think it is correct to interpret the timing of (Dan. 7,8, and 9) as a day for a year. However, do you understand why God uses the Day/Year principal in these prophecies?

Having said that, I don't believe the timing used in (Dan. 12:7, 11) is the same day/yr. for the simple reason that in doing so creates a internal conflict within this portion of the prophecy. Vs.12. states: "blessed is the one who waits for, and reaches the end of the 1335 days" (NIV). If this timing is day/year as we Adventist interpret it, the verse makes no sense as no human could live to see the beginning of this time span and the end as well. Do you see the problem?

It is only when we come to understand there are prophecies when God uses the Day/yr. principal and there are times when He does not, that this conflict is cleared up and the prophecy makes perfect sense just as it reads.

The text does not say anything about someone alive at the start and also at the end. It only mentions the end.

12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

Phil 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

That Phil 3 statement about Paul attaining to the resurrection of the dead - is not about Paul living for 2000 years and then all the way to the 2nd coming.

Bob you switched the translations of (Dan.12:12) on me, I had posted the NIV translation which I believe is easier to understand. F.Y.I., I prefer the NIV.

NIV is usually a bit more paraphrase-and-inference than is NKJV and NASB so I usually use one of those other translations - although every once in a great while you will find that the NIV is actually more accurate than them all - for example in 1 John 2:2

The (CBS) Chrlstian Standard Bible reads: Happy is the one who waits for an reaches 1335 days. The (EASY) EasyEnglish Bible reads: The people who wait in a patient way for 1335 days will be happy. The (AMP) reads: How blessed [happy, fortunate, spiritually prosperous]...

And so in Phil 3 they read like this -
CSB - Christians standard
11 assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead.

NIV
11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

NKJV
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

AMP
11 so that I may attain to the resurrection [that will raise me] from the dead.

it seems to me they convey the idea, that a blessing comes to those who witness the total sum of the "1335 days".

"Who witnesses the total sum of" is missing from those texts in all the translations.

The translation you posted reads in part, "attains to the 1,335 days". The definition of the word attains means: to strive for a goal; to reach as an end; to come into possession of; to come to as the end of a progression or course of movement. They attained the top of the hill. attain a ripe old age. intransitive verb.

So based on these definitions it seems to me your translation as well is conveying the same thought.

Which would be a problem in Phil 3 since we all agree Paul is not watching for the resurrection.

However, since you understand them too be literal, I'm assuming you understand the 1335 days/yrs., to span A.D. 508-1798. Is this correct?

Yes but that is not literal it is figurative because it uses day .. for a year

Changing gears, to vs.11, do you understand the "daily" to be paganism, or the continue priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary?

I don't see how it can be paganism -- the daily service that began at Christ's ascension continues even to this very day as long as Christ is interceding for us in the sanctuary in heaven. Which of course He stops doing in Rev 15:8 as the start of the 7 last plagues.

NOTE: Just FYI - when you select "reply" all you have to do is go to the bottom of the page in that reply window and type your response outside of that [ / quote ] ending tag you see at the end. if you do that - then my text and your response to it are separated as you see in this post.


Just FYI to make the post-response work a little less effort.

 

[Tim Ray]

For the same reasons He uses it in Rev 11,12,13 I would imagine.. It gives the reader an impression of a shorter length of time rather than saying "you have 4,000 more years to wait"

Bob, I appreciate your response to my earlier post/question as to: Why do you think God uses the day/year unit of time? My short answer to this question is, it's a, "Jubilee" unit of measurement. We as adventists don't understand much about the Jubilee Calendar and it's purpose. Therefore, you won't find much written by Adventist. Over time I have come to realize that we as Adventist do not have a corner on all truths. I believe truth is for all who with humility, and a desire to know more truth, and a opened mind to consider new insights are those whom the Holy Spirit can lead on to greater truth. For it is impossible for anyone to expand ones understanding unless they are exposed to new information. However, for most christians they quickly dismiss anything that is new and different without the benefit of understanding. Thus, many remain in darkness.

I will now give you my long version to the question, by passing along these insights by some one other than myself.

A valid rule is a rule that is always true. For example, 2 + 2 always equals 4 because the laws of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division demonstrate the answer is true. Similarly, a valid rule will not have an exception even in Bible prophecy. If there is an exception in math, no one can determine if the answer is true or false. If there is an exception to a rule in Bible prophecy, no one has the authority to speak for God and tell the rest of the world when the rule should be applied or ignored. To illustrate this matter, consider a rule which some people advocate:

“A day in Bible prophecy always equals a year.”

If this rule has no exception, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 should be translated as 365,242 years. (365.242 days per year x 1,000 years = 365,242 years)

The day/year rule cannot be always valid because it puts the Bible in a state of internal con- flict. Certain time periods in Daniel and Revelation must be translated as a day for a year (for example, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 must be translated into 490 years), but there are other time periods like Revelation 13:5 where the rule “a day for a year” is not valid.

God’s Weekly Cycle

Since Jesus created the world, the first day of each week has aligned with the first day of Creation and the seventh day of each week has aligned with God’s Sabbath rest. (Genesis 2:1-3) Even though human beings may define a week as any period of seven days, God defines a week as a period of seven days that aligns with Creation’s week. (Exodus 20:8-11)
God created a new calendar for Israel at the time of the Exodus. (Exodus 12:2) This calendar is often called the Jubilee Calendar and it is based on God’s weekly cycle. God established a cycle of seven years so that each day of the week represented a year. To ensure the integrity of this cycle, God declared every seventh year dating from the Exodus was to be a Sabbath year of rest for the land. Israel entered Canaan in a Friday year (the 41st year since the Exodus) and their first full year in the Promised Land was a Sabbath year; much like Adam and Eve’s first full day of life was a Sabbath day. The Jubilee Calendar measures time in units of forty nine year cycles (seven weeks of years). When a forty-nine year cycle expired, the following year was declared a year of Jubilee. The year of Jubilee was a special year because debts were cancelled, slaves were set free, and all of the land was returned to the original owners for free. The year of Jubilee always fell on a Sunday year. It was counted as the fiftieth year of the outgoing Jubilee cycle and simultaneously, it was counted as the first year of the new incoming Jubilee cycle.

These facts about the Jubilee Calendar are important because the seventy weeks in Daniel 9 did not suddenly appear with a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Actually, the seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel 9 align with ongoing weekly cycles of years that began at the time of the Exodus. God did not grant 490 random years to Israel, but instead, God defined the 490 years as seventy weeks so that He could draw Israel’s attention back to the weekly cycles of years that Israel had long ignored. When Gabriel said to Daniel, “Seventy sevens are decreed for your people” his language was designed to redirect Israel’s attention to the Jubilee Calendar which included the release of slaves, Sabbath years of rest for the land every seventh year, and the restoration of the land to its original owners at no charge!

Consider the way that Gabriel broke down the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:25:

7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week = 70 weeks 49 years + 434 years + 7 years = 490 years

Gabriel expressed the seventy weeks as three segments of time because the first segment of seven sevens is a Jubilee cycle. This was a huge clue for the nation of Israel. The all important decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee! God wanted His people to anticipate that the land would be returned to the Jews at no charge and the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee. This alignment with the Jubilee Calendar was not a casual coincidence. God had exiled Israel to Babylon for seventy years because it had refused to observe the Jubilee Calendar!

Gabriel also told Daniel that Messiah would appear and begin His ministry exactly seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks (483 years) after the decree was issued. Then, in the middle of the following week of seven years (the seventieth week), Messiah would be “cut off” (disinherited), but not for Himself (Jesus would be cut off for sinners). When this information is properly assembled, perfect harmony springs from the sum of all of the parts! History says the all-important decree was issued in a year of Jubilee (457 B.C.) and exactly sixty-nine weeks later (A.D. 27), Jesus showed up on the banks of the Jordan River and John baptized Him. Jesus began his ministry in the fall of A.D. 27 (a Sunday year) and was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30, (a Wednesday year, in the middle of the seventieth week.)

Four decrees were issued to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and 457 B.C. is the only one that occurred in a year of Jubilee.

Bob, because a day/year rule for interpreting time in apocalyptic prophecy is not a valid
rule many now, including myself, believe the correct rule is as follows:

The presence or absence of the Jubilee Calendar determines how God measures time. If a prophetic time period occurs during the operation of the Jubilee Calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994), time is translated as a day for a year; otherwise, translation is not permitted.

We have conversed on (Dan.12:7-12) in previous post, and I have express that I believe the time, times, and half a time,(1260 yrs.) 1290, and the 1335 are literal days and not Day/yr. as corporate Adventist do, yourself included.

The prophecy of which (Dan.12:7-12) is taken actually begins in (Dan.10:1-12:13) Beginning point in time 538 B.C. and ending point in time is the second coming. The vision contains two stories. The first story (10:1-11:35) describes a series of battles that conclude with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the second story (11:36- 12-13) describes a battle that concludes with the destruction of the world at the Second Coming. two stories are told in this vision because there are important parallels between them.

Bob, I hope this additional post helps you understand my perspective more clearly. Not trying to impose my beliefs on you just trying to share a different perspective. Remember, I'm a progressive Adventist.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I appreciate your response to my earlier post/question as to: Why do you think God uses the day/year unit of time? My short answer to this question is, it's a, "Jubilee" unit of measurement. We as adventists don't understand much about the Jubilee Calendar and it's purpose. Therefore, you won't find much written by Adventist.

Tim - as I understand it , you have already said that Dan 7 uses 1260 days for 1260 years, and chapter 8 uses 2300 days for 2300 years, and Dan9 uses 490 days for 490 years accurately predicting the first coming of Christ.

So then you appear to want to switch to something else for Dan 12 having already accepted that proven pattern in Dan 7, 8 and 9 (unless I am missing something about what you are saying).

I would argue that switching horses in the middle of the stream is not the logical next step in the book of Daniel. If the idea is that a wildly different system such as Jubilees is inserted in Dan 12 then all the more reason to ask how that popped up after having established the reliability of the proven method in 7,8,9.

“A day in Bible prophecy always equals a year.”

If this rule has no exception, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 should be translated as 365,242 years. (365.242 days per year x 1,000 years = 365,242 years)

True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??

Gabriel expressed the seventy weeks as three segments of time because the first segment of seven sevens is a Jubilee cycle.

Or was it because that is the amount of time it took to rebuild the temple according to the gospels?

Bob, because a day/year rule for interpreting time in apocalyptic prophecy is not a valid
rule

Having just demonstrated that 490 literal year prediction in Daniel 9 I find it hard to fathom why you conclude that segment as if you had just disproven the very model you used to get from 457 BC to 27 AD for the 69 weeks.

Are we reading the same post?

many now, including myself, believe the correct rule is as follows:

The presence or absence of the Jubilee Calendar determines how God measures time. If a prophetic time period occurs during the operation of the Jubilee Calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994), time is translated as a day for a year; otherwise, translation is not permitted.

We have conversed on (Dan.12:7-12) in previous post, and I have express that I believe the time, times, and half a time,(1260 yrs.) 1290, and the 1335 are literal days and not Day/yr. as corporate Adventist do, yourself included.

The prophecy of which (Dan.12:7-12) is taken actually begins in (Dan.10:1-12:13) Beginning point in time 538 B.C. and ending point in time is the second coming. The vision contains two stories. The first story (10:1-11:35) describes a series of battles that conclude with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the second story (11:36- 12-13) describes a battle that concludes with the destruction of the world at the Second Coming. two stories are told in this vision because there are important parallels between them.

Bob, I hope this additional post helps you understand my perspective more clearly. Not trying to impose my beliefs on you just trying to share a different perspective. Remember, I'm a progressive Adventist.

That does help me understand what you are trying to use in Daniel 12.

 

[Tim Ray]

Bob, glad the last post, gave you some clarification. And to simplify it even more than what was stated earlier let me put it this way. From (Dan.11:36-12:13) I understand these events to be yet future and prophecy the actions of the Antichrist during the tribulation. Of course these events will take place outside of the operation of the Jubilee Calendar (1437BC-1944AD) Therefore, the 1260, 1290 and the 1335 days are literal, not symbolic day/yr.

I appreciate our on going dialog and anticipate it make continue. Therefore, I want to share a little of my bio. My second wife know of 39 yrs. studied our way into the Adventist church in our first yr., of marriage. She being 24, I was 34. We both came out of nondenominational churches. We were members of the Battle Creek Tabernacle, in south west Michigan until we moved to norther Ca., 19 years ago. I believe my spiritual gift is my interest in understanding apocalyptic prophecy. And that let my wife and I into a Revelation Seminar which let us into baptism within the SDA church.

I believe our faith is solid in our foundational beliefs, but I think the Historical method of interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy is invalid. I believe these prophecies, since they have been unsealed in the time of the end, reveal more than what historicism allows. And it is only by using the four natural laws that God built into these prophecies that they make sense just as they read, and conform to the actions of God in the past as recorded in scripture.

Would like to hear you bios, if you wish to share.

 

[reddogs]

Very nice explanation Bob...
Here is one from Adventist World Magazine..
Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy | Adventist World

 

[Tim Ray]

Tim - as I understand it , you have already said that Dan 7 uses 1260 days for 1260 years, and chapter 8 uses 2300 days for 2300 years, and Dan9 uses 490 days for 490 years accurately predicting the first coming of Christ.

So then you appear to want to switch to something else for Dan 12 having already accepted that proven pattern in Dan 7, 8 and 9 (unless I am missing something about what you are saying).

I would argue that switching horses in the middle of the stream is not the logical next step in the book of Daniel. If the idea is that a wildly different system such as Jubilees is inserted in Dan 12 then all the more reason to ask how that popped up after having established the reliability of the proven method in 7,8,9.




True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??



Or was it because that is the amount of time it took to rebuild the temple according to the gospels?



Having just demonstrated that 490 literal year prediction in Daniel 9 I find it hard to fathom why you conclude that segment as if you had just disproven the very model you used to get from 457 BC to 27 AD for the 69 weeks.

Are we reading the same post?



That does help me understand what you are trying to use in Daniel 12.

Tim - as I understand it , you have already said that Dan 7 uses 1260 days for 1260 years, and chapter 8 uses 2300 days for 2300 years, and Dan9 uses 490 days for 490 years accurately predicting the first coming of Christ.

So then you appear to want to switch to something else for Dan 12 having already accepted that proven pattern in Dan 7, 8 and 9 (unless I am missing something about what you are saying).

I would argue that switching horses in the middle of the stream is not the logical next step in the book of Daniel. If the idea is that a wildly different system such as Jubilees is inserted in Dan 12 then all the more reason to ask how that popped up after having established the reliability of the proven method in 7,8,9.




True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??



Or was it because that is the amount of time it took to rebuild the temple according to the gospels?



Having just demonstrated that 490 literal year prediction in Daniel 9 I find it hard to fathom why you conclude that segment as if you had just disproven the very model you used to get from 457 BC to 27 AD for the 69 weeks.

Are we reading the same post?



That does help me understand what you are trying to use in Daniel 12.

 

[Tim Ray]

Tim - as I understand it , you have already said that Dan 7 uses 1260 days for 1260 years, and chapter 8 uses 2300 days for 2300 years, and Dan9 uses 490 days for 490 years accurately predicting the first coming of Christ.

So then you appear to want to switch to something else for Dan 12 having already accepted that proven pattern in Dan 7, 8 and 9 (unless I am missing something about what you are saying).

I would argue that switching horses in the middle of the stream is not the logical next step in the book of Daniel. If the idea is that a wildly different system such as Jubilees is inserted in Dan 12 then all the more reason to ask how that popped up after having established the reliability of the proven method in 7,8,9.




True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??



Or was it because that is the amount of time it took to rebuild the temple according to the gospels?



Having just demonstrated that 490 literal year prediction in Daniel 9 I find it hard to fathom why you conclude that segment as if you had just disproven the very model you used to get from 457 BC to 27 AD for the 69 weeks.

Are we reading the same post?



That does help me understand what you are trying to use in Daniel 12.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, glad the last post, gave you some clarification. And to simplify it even more than what was stated earlier let me put it this way. From (Dan.11:36-12:13) I understand these events to be yet future and prophecy the actions of the Antichrist during the tribulation. Of course these events will take place outside of the operation of the Jubilee Calendar (1437BC-1944AD) Therefore, the 1260, 1290 and the 1335 days are literal, not symbolic day/yr.

I have to admit that "outside the dates of 1437B.C. to 1944 AD all apocalyptic timelines are day-for-day" instead of the classic historicist Protestant "Day for year" -- is not an idea I hear much about inside or outside the SDA church.

Would like to hear you bios, if you wish to share.

I was raised in an SDA family and in college I majored in sciences - first going down the path of biophysics then switching to computer science.

As you can see from my screen name profile here - I have over 30,000 post events on this forum and there are several other forums where over the years that same number seems to keep coming up related to my profile. Which only means I like sharing what I know about the gospel and how the word of God presents that "one" gospel in all ages.

I married a nursing student from SMC while in my early twenties and we have 2 children that are now adults both of whom also graduated with computer science engineering degrees.. As a family we are very focused on Bible study and sharing with others - I tend to focus a lot in the area of sharing with non-SDAs.

 

[BobRyan]

Very nice explanation Bob...
Here is one from Adventist World Magazine..
Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy | Adventist World

Hey thanks for sharing that!! - I am adding it to my files.

 

[Tim Ray]

I have to admit that "outside the dates of 1437B.C. to 1944 AD all apocalyptic timelines are day-for-day" instead of the classic historicist Protestant "Day for year" -- is not an idea I hear much about inside or outside the SDA church.

I was raised in an SDA family and in college I majored in sciences - first going down the path of biophysics then switching to computer science.

As you can see from my screen name profile here - I have over 30,000 post events on this forum and there are several other forums where over the years that same number seems to keep coming up related to my profile. Which only means I like sharing what I know about the gospel and how the word of God presents that "one" gospel in all ages.

I married a nursing student from SMC while in my early twenties and we have 2 children that are now adults both of whom also graduated with computer science engineering degrees.. As a family we are very focused on Bible study and sharing with others - I tend to focus a lot in the area of sharing with non-SDAs.

Appreciate your response Bob. Between the two of us your the man with the brains. I made my living with my hands. I was a remodeling contractor for over thirty years. Since I've been out here in Ca., I've been doing a business as a Natural Hoof Trimmer of horses.

However, when it comes to understanding anything, spiritual subjects included, we both know that there are highly educated individuals advocating various positions with opposing views. In spiritual subjects, the bible indicates often that God found the less educated being more preceptive in grasping present truth than those who were educated through their religious universities, and then went on to become employees/defenders of their faith. These type have always proofed to be hard nuts to crack, due to their pride, and it prevails too this day.

I have always said, I would never trade my experience of having studied my way out of my earlier faith into Adventism. It was difficult socially. But the greatest lesson I learned is that there are millions of Church leaders made up of all faiths that are Sincerely wrong in what they teach. After studying deeper into why we believe what we do about apocalyptic prophecy, I have no doubt we are sincerely behind the light in understand what the Holy Spirit has now made know to those who in humble spirits and thirsting for present truth.

If you consider yourself such an individual, I have thirty years of study and experience in dealing with church members and leadership over the improved method of interpreting apocalyptic prophecy. And I can sum up their response in just a few words. Adventist are uninterested and not willing to discuss it, end of discussion. Obviously, Adventist think they have the whole truth on this issue so what's the point? Should we not bear in mind the parable of the ten virgins?

Bob, you asked me this question in post 13, "True - but to my knowledge no SDA document has ever made the claim that all timelines in the Bible use the day-for-year rule. Do you have any evidence of such a claim??"

Answer: There is not such a claim, because your stating something we don't believe. Your error is in what I highlighted in bold. Our Historical method of interpretation in the area of timing is subject to apocalyptic prophecy only, not all scripture as you state it.
Proof of this is in all of our material covering the time elements in these prophecies.

Should you be more interested in understanding the time span of the Jubilee Calendar I will sent you the material.

I would also like to dialog with you on the "daily" if your comfortable, but prefer you respond to the three questions I asked of you.