the self replicating watch argument

[GenemZ]

Perhaps, but not for me. We can exchange pithy remarks all year. It won't alter the abundance of evidence for a natural world, nor the near total dependence of Christian belief upon faith. I have nothing against faith. It seems to serve Hindus, Pagans, Marxists, Jews, Muslims and Christians well, but it is not for me.

There are more than one kind of spirit beings.... Only one God. One true faith... many counterfeits.

Many wanna-be's. Their's is fierce competition via envy that has been a problem for stability and peace a long time. But, in spite of it all. God always ends up with those who are His.

God is patience. He will let this be what it is until it ends up completely vindicating Him in the end.

 

[VirOptimus]

What do you think faith is? Something only for believers?

Did you believe that your great great grandfather (whom you never met) lived in a certain city, because you saw him there? Or, do you accept it by faith when you were told?

Faith is for everybody.


When it pertains to God, believers need to depend upon faith to learn about Him. In the future the believer will no longer need faith. For we will see Him.

Your semantic games does not impress.

 

[Ophiolite]

What do you think faith is? Something only for believers?

Did you believe that your great great grandfather (whom you never met) lived in a certain city, because you saw him there? Or, do you accept it by faith when you were told?

Faith is for everybody.

This is nonsensical. It betrays a fundamental error that seems commonplace amongst some believers, who presume the thought process of an atheist, or agnostic is the same as theirs.

Let us take your example as a case in point. I understand that my great, great, great grandfather, though born on the Isle of Arran moved, at some point, to another isle where he and several following generations lived out their lives. My understanding is based upon birth certificates, death certificates and parish records. Many historians and genealogists, through dedicated work, have demonstrated the reliability of such records. Therefore, I accept as probable, but not certain, that the movement of the aforementioned great, great, great grandfather, is as described above.

There is no faith involved in that acceptance. Faith is not only not necessary in this instance, it would most likely be misleading. If you still maintain faith is involved in the above acceptance please demonstrate where.

 

[GenemZ]

Your semantic games does not impress.

Its not semantic game. You want to try another ploy?

 

[pitabread]

There are more than one kind of spirit beings.... Only one God. One true faith... many counterfeits.

It gets awfully confusing when different believers of different beliefs are claiming theirs as the One True Belief (TM).

 

[GenemZ]

This is nonsensical. It betrays a fundamental error that seems commonplace amongst some believers, who presume the thought process of an atheist, or agnostic is the same as theirs.

Let us take your example as a case in point. I understand that my great, great, great grandfather, though born on the Isle of Arran moved, at some point, to another isle where he and several following generations lived out their lives. My understanding is based upon birth certificates, death certificates and parish records. Many historians and genealogists, through dedicated work, have demonstrated the reliability of such records. Therefore, I accept as probable, but not certain, that the movement of the aforementioned great, great, great grandfather, is as described above.

No... your mother told you. No certificates.

Your faith would be based upon the veracity of the one telling you in that case. = faith.

Now, if some miserable cousin, who you knew loved to make others unhappy with their lives, told you the same thing? Would you have faith?

 

[GenemZ]

It gets awfully confusing when different believers of different beliefs are claiming theirs as the One True Belief (TM).

Its supposed to be.

 

[pitabread]

Its supposed to be.

That seems dumb.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No... your mother told you. No certificates.

Well isn't that presumptuous as all heck. It seems to me that you think it is impossible for someone to look up information on a great great grandparent as a matter of public record despite the fact that people kept records of jobs, birth, death, etc. long before anyone's great great grandparents were alive. Sure, certain circumstances could make investigation extremely difficult, but there is no reason to assume they apply to a person you don't even know.

Your faith would be based upon the veracity of the one telling you in that case. = faith.

-_- everyone has stories about some such person being in their family tree which may or may not be true. Plenty of people take such stories with a grain of salt if there isn't sufficient evidence to back them up.

Now, if some miserable cousin, who you knew loved to make others unhappy with their lives, told you the same thing? Would you have faith?

I know this whole thing wasn't directed at me specifically, but to be blunt, I never assume any of these types of tales are likely to be true just because I like the family member that told them. And I wouldn't disbelieve a family member I didn't like if they presented valid evidence for their claims. The most likely thing I would do is just not give a crap, because everyone has saints, sinners, nobles, slaves, and everything in between in their family tree if you go back far enough.

As far as my ancestry goes, the only thing I assume to be true is that I HAVE ancestors, considering the fact that it isn't possible for me not to. I don't assume any of my family members know significantly more about them than I do, and I never take them at their word for anything on that topic.

 

[VirOptimus]

Its not semantic game. You want to try another ploy?

It is, you try to twist the meaning of faith. Its dishonest debating.

 

[GenemZ]

That seems dumb.

God has his purpose. Like Himself... It remains invisible to all who do not know Him.

But, He always holds the invitation open. God is not a snob. Everyone from genius to near moron has taken Him up on his invite. Nobody intrinsically has an advantage over another in this matter.

Why does God accept anyone? Because when He is done with us we will all be sporting minds that will dwarf Einstein. Even the morons in Heaven will exceed human genius as we now know it.

That is why He accepts anyone now. Because He knows that what He now salvages (salvation) will be upgraded and made into something new, far beyond like we can dream or imagine. We can only imagine up to genius. There will be new categories for much greater mental abilities in the future.

Do you think God would tolerate idiots in His presence when His purpose is to be known and understood? That is one reason why God tolerates believers who act like total idiots. For He knows what they are to become after He gets done transforming them... to His glory it will be done. Like an artist glories in his finished masterpiece.

 

[Ophiolite]

No... your mother told you. No certificates.

Your faith would be based upon the veracity of the one telling you in that case. = faith.

Now, if some miserable cousin, who you knew loved to make others unhappy with their lives, told you the same thing? Would you have faith?

Excuse me, but I think I have a sounder knowledge of my own life history than you. I am aware of the history summarised in my previous post because of the records I mentioned, not because my mother told me.

As for my maternal grandfather, I am aware that in WWI he lost and arm and was awarded a medal. I know this, not as an act of faith, but because I have seen the medal and a fascimile of the War Office document concerning his medal. Now, it is possible that the medal belonged to someone else and the report was a fake. However, as there is no obvious reason for anyone to take the time to implement such a hoax, I think it reasonable to accept - pending contrary evidence - that my grandfather was awarded a medal. No faith involved.

Now, trusting someone because they have previously proved reliable and truthful, and have done so consistently on both important and umimportant matters is not a question of faith. It is a reasonable position to take. Indeed, to routinely distrust such a person would be counterproductive, anti-social and plain foolish. Again - nothing to do with faith.

 

[GenemZ]

It is, you try to twist the meaning of faith. Its dishonest debating.

Men in days of honor and integrity used to seal a deal with a handshake. = sealed by faith.
When you know you can trust somebody? You accept what they tell you. You are in effect, putting faith in what they say. Faith is not limited to religion alone.

You need to get your notion of faith taken out of that box you keep it in. You're not alone. Others assume the same thing as well.

In Christianity... Faith is taking God on His Word. In our case.. His written Word.

I did not believe God is real because I read the Bible. Matter of fact. The Bible made no sense to me before I knew God was real. Then I read the Bible... and for a while.... in a pleasantly perplexed stunned state of mind. For then I knew what I never thought I could.

 

[GenemZ]

Excuse me, but I think I have a sounder knowledge of my own life history than you. I am aware of the history summarised in my previous post because of the records I mentioned, not because my mother told me.

Oye? I was giving you a hypothetical which now you turned into something literal as to evade the point I was making... (it had to be hypothetical. do I know you personally?)

Now you sound like a Bible thumper who takes out of context some Scripture ... Have you tried reasoning with them before? Welcome to the club. We have all been guilty at times.

Please.. put down the stones.

 

[VirOptimus]

Men in days of honor and integrity used to seal a deal with a handshake. = sealed by faith.
When you know you can trust somebody? You accept what they tell you. You are in effect, putting faith in what they say. Faith is not limited to religion alone.

You need to get your notion of faith taken out of that box you keep it in. You're not alone. Others assume the same thing as well.

In Christianity... Faith is taking God on His Word. In our case.. His written Word.

I did not believe God is real because I read the Bible. Matter of fact. The Bible made no sense to me before I knew God was real. Then I read the Bible... and for a while.... in a pleasantly perplexed stunned state of mind. For then I knew what I never thought I could.

You beliving god(s) exist doesnt make it so.

 

[Ophiolite]

Oye? I was giving you a hypothetical which now you turned into something literal as to evade the point I was making... (it had to be hypothetical. do I know you personally?)

Now you sound like a Bible thumper who takes out of context some Scripture ... Have you tried reasoning with them before? Welcome to the club. We have all been guilty at times.

Please.. put down the stones.

I obviated the need for a hypothetical by describing to you how I arrive at an understanding of just about anything. I was not avoiding your point, I was demonstrating that it was incorrect.

The stones present in this exchange are the stones of insistence from yourself: insistence in both the hypothetical and the real that asserts I accept certain things on faith. I don't. Please accept that.

 

[doubtingmerle]

What do you think faith is? Something only for believers?

Did you believe that your great great grandfather (whom you never met) lived in a certain city, because you saw him there? Or, do you accept it by faith when you were told?

Faith is for everybody.


When it pertains to God, believers need to depend upon faith to learn about Him. In the future the believer will no longer need faith. For we will see Him.

I accepted it based on evidence. I have a book that lists my family history.

 

[doubtingmerle]

[Deleted]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You beliving god(s) exist doesnt make it so.

NOTHING you do nor ANYTHING you believe could make the Eternal Creator Exist. So ?

 

[VirOptimus]

NOTHING you do nor ANYTHING you believe could make the Eternal Creator Exist. So ?

?