the self replicating watch argument

[doubtingmerle]

Your faith would be based upon the veracity of the one telling you in that case. = faith.

You are doing a bait and switch. There is a difference between accepting something on faith alone vs accepting something based on a reliable source.

I don't think genesis is a reliable source.

 

[GenemZ]

You beliving god(s) exist doesnt make it so.

I never thought it did.

 

[GenemZ]

You are doing a bait and switch. There is a difference between accepting something on faith alone vs accepting something based on a reliable source.

I don't think genesis is a reliable source.

You get the door prize...

 

[truefiction1]

Its still faith. Metaphysics is by their nature unknowable.

Grace is not unknowable, nor the One Who gives it.

 

[GenemZ]

Grace is not unknowable, nor the One Who gives it.

Grace is enabling power from God that makes grace knowable.

Why does not everyone know His grace? Doesn't God want everyone to know His grace?


“God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Jms 4:6a

 

[truefiction1]

Grace is enabling power from God that makes grace knowable.

Why does not everyone know His grace? Doesn't God want everyone to know His grace?


“God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Jms 4:6a

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:3)

 

[truefiction1]

Why does not everyone know His grace? Doesn't God want everyone to know His grace?

Not everyone knows God's grace, because one must turn towards God in the manner of a helpless child (i.e. with humility) and ask for it (i.e. praying "Lord have mercy on me"), and only because it is the Lord's will for one to do so.

God wants all people to do this so that they will come to know His grace:
"'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways!'" (Ezekiel 33:11)

Also: (Timothy 2:3-4)

 

[GenemZ]

Not everyone knows God's grace, because one must turn towards God in the manner of a helpless child (i.e. with humility) and ask for it (i.e. praying "Lord have mercy on me"), and only because it is the Lord's will for one to do so.

God wants all people to do this so that they will come to know His grace:
"'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways!'" (Ezekiel 33:11)

Also: (Timothy 2:3-4)

You have to keep in mind..... What Ezekiel saw were a people that were living a totally depraved lifestyle. Living in phallic cult degeneracy and sacrificing their children in fire as a means to become further aroused sexually. Compared to today? Our world had been Christianized. The kind of depravity we find are those who keep rejecting doing God's will. And that will is? To grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE. How many can teach today well enough to supply them with without substituting with moral codes and ritual to fulfill the natural needs of someone nothing like themselves?

There are two sides to that coin of failure to do God's will. "Without a vision my people perish." In other words? Without good Bible teaching the people will perish. Where are the good teachers today?

Keep in mind... David slaughtered the enemy and was powerful in battle. He was manly and strong in emotions. He was a musician ..... He was no weak wimp looking for some church to hide inside. Where are the manly teachers today? Where have they gone? Why is it always mild mannered men taking the pulpit to teach strong men who reject their teaching because these teachers are not concentrating on rightly handling the Word of God? But instead, teach things to try to make others act like they are naturally weak as themselves?

David was a powerful man of action! Yet? He was humble before God... like a child. There is a balance we must recover in the churches... at least in some of them... where people can go to be fed truth accurately and not be told they should live like the one teaching wants them to live.

When the Bible was written the world was not like today. People were amoral in many ways. Since then the church has gone out into all the world and has transformed cultures to becoming much more civilized in many ways. The depraved today are a people who live by human good, not by Divine good of knowing God's Word taught accurately. Churches have become like candy shops for kids..... That is one problem causing a problem.

 

[truefiction1]

You have to keep in mind..... What Ezekiel saw were a people that were living a totally depraved lifestyle. Living in phallic cult degeneracy and sacrificing their children in fire as a means to become further aroused sexually. Compared to today? Our world had been Christianized. The kind of depravity we find are those who keep rejecting doing God's will. And that will is? To grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE. How many can teach today well enough to supply them with without substituting with moral codes and ritual to fulfill the natural needs of someone nothing like themselves?

There are two sides to that coin of failure to do God's will. "Without a vision my people perish." In other words? Without good Bible teaching the people will perish. Where are the good teachers today?

Keep in mind... David slaughtered the enemy and was powerful in battle. He was manly and strong in emotions. He was a musician ..... He was no weak wimp looking for some church to hide inside. Where are the manly teachers today? Where have they gone? Why is it always mild mannered men taking the pulpit to teach strong men who reject their teaching because these teachers are not concentrating on rightly handling the Word of God? But instead, teach things to try to make others act like they are naturally weak as themselves?

David was a powerful man of action! Yet? He was humble before God... like a child. There is a balance we must recover in the churches... at least in some of them... where people can go to be fed truth accurately and not be told they should live like the one teaching wants them to live.

When the Bible was written the world was not like today. People were amoral in many ways. Since then the church has gone out into all the world and has transformed cultures to becoming much more civilized in many ways. The depraved today are a people who live by human good, not by Divine good of knowing God's Word taught accurately. Churches have become like candy shops for kids..... That is one problem causing a problem.

Being a member of True belief in the Church I'm a member of of isn't a cake walk. It's much more like the trail to Golgatha, even in times of peace. What a blessing She is, even though there are always "tares among the wheat" which can really put us to the test.

I agree, the cultures are more civilized in many ways. But, they still miss the mark of Communion with God, which is by grace (the Holy Spirit), and in some ways are more evil than most common folk are aware of and likely getting surprisingly worse and worse (more corrupt).

 

[Kylie]

"'A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Then He left them and went away."

For someone who claims such evidence is available, you sure seem incapable of actually producing it.

 

[GenemZ]

For someone who claims such evidence is available, you sure seem incapable of actually producing it.

16 Some Pharisees and Sadducees who came to Jesus wanted to trap him, so they asked him to perform a miracle for them, to show that God approved of him. 2 But Jesus answered, “When the sun is setting, you say, ‘We are going to have fine weather, because the sky is red.’ 3 And early in the morning you say, ‘It is going to rain, because the sky is red and dark.’ You can predict the weather by looking at the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs concerning these times! 4 How evil and godless are the people of this day! You ask me for a miracle? No! The only miracle you will be given is the miracle of Jonah.”​

Only those who hated Jesus demanded a miracle. Jesus would perform them without asking for those who loved Him. Which side of the fence are you?

When Jesus was heading to his crucifixion He was given an opportunity to save himself. He refused because the one involved hated him.

8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer.​

And, why should Jesus give you a sign/miracle?

No one got saved by them. They were always saved by having love for the Lord of creation.

 

[Kylie]

16 Some Pharisees and Sadducees who came to Jesus wanted to trap him, so they asked him to perform a miracle for them, to show that God approved of him. 2 But Jesus answered, “When the sun is setting, you say, ‘We are going to have fine weather, because the sky is red.’ 3 And early in the morning you say, ‘It is going to rain, because the sky is red and dark.’ You can predict the weather by looking at the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs concerning these times! 4 How evil and godless are the people of this day! You ask me for a miracle? No! The only miracle you will be given is the miracle of Jonah.”​

Only those who hated Jesus demanded a miracle. Jesus would perform them without asking for those who loved Him. Which side of the fence are you?

When Jesus was heading to his crucifixion He was given an opportunity to save himself. He refused because the one involved hated him.

8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer.​

And, why should Jesus give you a sign/miracle?

No one got saved by them. They were always saved by having love for the Lord of creation.

So let's get this straight...

1. You post a list of miracles from the Bible. the self replicating watch argument
2. I ask you to give me even a single source for these miracles that comes from somewhere other than the Bible. the self replicating watch argument
3. You that the gut instinct of a bunch of people who have heard the stories and really REALLY feel that the stories are true counts as a source. the self replicating watch argument
4. I tell you that no, it doesn't count as a source, because then anyone can claim any silly old thing, like invisible intangible elephants. the self replicating watch argument
5. You then post a bunch of Bible quotes at me. the self replicating watch argument
6. I repeated my request for a source OUTSIDE the Bible to back up these claims of miracles. the self replicating watch argument
7. You said that you don't need to quote the Bible at me (although you'd done nothing else at this point). You also claimed that there ARE sources outside the Bible to support the miraculous claims that the Bible makes. the self replicating watch argument
8. I point out that despite all your bluster, you still haven't actually provided these sources which you claim exist. the self replicating watch argument
9. You claim that you've already provided them elsewhere in this thread (apparently expecting me to go searching through more than two and a half thousand posts to try to find them). You also claim that you are posting Bible quotes because of sales-pitch reasons totally unrelated to the discussion we are having. the self replicating watch argument
10. I come straight out and ask you to provide links to support your claim that miracles described in the Bible have supporting sources from outside the Bible. the self replicating watch argument
11. You then give ANOTHER quote from the Bible, apparently trying to justify why you don't need to provide these sources which you claim exist. the self replicating watch argument
12. I point out the strangeness of your apparent inability to post these sources which you claim exist. the self replicating watch argument
13. And you are now responding with yet MORE Bible verses trying again to justify why you don't need to provide these extra-Biblical sources.

You know, it sure seems to me that your initial claim that there were sources outside the Bible for the claims in the Bible was just WRONG, and now you're trying to get out of it.

 

[GenemZ]

So let's get this straight...

1. You post a list of miracles from the Bible. the self replicating watch argument
2. I ask you to give me even a single source for these miracles that comes from somewhere other than the Bible. the self replicating watch argument
3. You that the gut instinct of a bunch of people who have heard the stories and really REALLY feel that the stories are true counts as a source. the self replicating watch argument
4. I tell you that no, it doesn't count as a source, because then anyone can claim any silly old thing, like invisible intangible elephants. the self replicating watch argument
5. You then post a bunch of Bible quotes at me. the self replicating watch argument
6. I repeated my request for a source OUTSIDE the Bible to back up these claims of miracles. the self replicating watch argument
7. You said that you don't need to quote the Bible at me (although you'd done nothing else at this point). You also claimed that there ARE sources outside the Bible to support the miraculous claims that the Bible makes. the self replicating watch argument
8. I point out that despite all your bluster, you still haven't actually provided these sources which you claim exist. the self replicating watch argument
9. You claim that you've already provided them elsewhere in this thread (apparently expecting me to go searching through more than two and a half thousand posts to try to find them). You also claim that you are posting Bible quotes because of sales-pitch reasons totally unrelated to the discussion we are having. the self replicating watch argument
10. I come straight out and ask you to provide links to support your claim that miracles described in the Bible have supporting sources from outside the Bible. the self replicating watch argument
11. You then give ANOTHER quote from the Bible, apparently trying to justify why you don't need to provide these sources which you claim exist. the self replicating watch argument
12. I point out the strangeness of your apparent inability to post these sources which you claim exist. the self replicating watch argument
13. And you are now responding with yet MORE Bible verses trying again to justify why you don't need to provide these extra-Biblical sources.

You know, it sure seems to me that your initial claim that there were sources outside the Bible for the claims in the Bible was just WRONG, and now you're trying to get out of it.

You are confusing me with someone else...

 

[truefiction1]

For someone who claims such evidence is available, you sure seem incapable of actually producing it.

I'm incredibly capable of producing it. In the 2000+ year history of the Orthodox Church there has definitely been no lack of miraculous events and incidents. They are occurring even as I type in this moment. But, if I told you of any of it, you would only deny it, just like the other poster I presented evidence to. She was already dead set on calling anything pointed to either a hoax, not real, or else just plain lies. Why? Because she had already committed herself to unbelief, and has spiritual motivations to reject the Truth. That is what people who are lacking in grace do. That is why no sign can be given, because no sign will ever be believed.

No, its not a sign that is needed. It's grace. Only when grace is present will you be able to accept the evidence that's right in front of everybody's nose at all times. If you become a recipient of grace, you won't ask me to provide the evidence. You'll become aware of it yourself. What's stopping you from receiving grace? You know the answer. The answer is - you. Yes, you, with your spiritual motivations.

If you were demanding that I show you the evidence because you are really hungry for Truth and thirsty for grace, then I would kindly disclose all that I'm capable of. I strongly suspect, however, that your motives and intentions are otherwise. If I've read you wrongly, I apologize. If not, then haven't I responded appropriately to your demands for some sign that what I'm saying is the Truth, seeing how you're not going to believe anyway no matter what I say?

 

[Kylie]

You are confusing me with someone else...

Ah, so I did. My apologies.

 

[Kylie]

I'm incredibly capable of producing it. In the 2000+ year history of the Orthodox Church there has definitely been no lack of miraculous events and incidents. They are occurring even as I type in this moment. But, if I told you of any of it, you would only deny it, just like the other poster I presented evidence to. She was already dead set on calling anything pointed to either a hoax, not real, or else just plain lies. Why? Because she had already committed herself to unbelief, and has spiritual motivations to reject the Truth. That is what people who are lacking in grace do. That is why no sign can be given, because no sign will ever be believed.

No, its not a sign that is needed. It's grace. Only when grace is present will you be able to accept the evidence that's right in front of everybody's nose at all times. If you become a recipient of grace, you won't ask me to provide the evidence. You'll become aware of it yourself. What's stopping you from receiving grace? You know the answer. The answer is - you. Yes, you, with your spiritual motivations.

If you were demanding that I show you the evidence because you are really hungry for Truth and thirsty for grace, then I would kindly disclose all that I'm capable of. I strongly suspect, however, that your motives and intentions are otherwise. If I've read you wrongly, I apologize. If not, then haven't I responded appropriately to your demands for some sign that what I'm saying is the Truth, seeing how you're not going to believe anyway no matter what I say?

If you are incredibly capable of producing it, why haven't you done so?

I can assure you that if I dismiss ANY of it, I will tell you my reasons for doing so. Unless, of course, you think I should just blindly accept things without examining them first.

 

[truefiction1]

If you are incredibly capable of producing it, why haven't you done so?

I can assure you that if I dismiss ANY of it, I will tell you my reasons for doing so. Unless, of course, you think I should just blindly accept things without examining them first.

Why don't you examine the evidence for yourself? It's all around. In fact, there's no need to look beyond one's own psyche to become fully aware of the presence and sovereignty of the Creator. If you had enough grace you would already know this yourself. But, because you don't possess enough of it within yourself, it's as I've already told you: you're incapable of being aware of any miracles of God. If a person died and then came back to life a couple days later, you'd deny it really happened even if it did. There's simply nothing that is going to be believed by you, because everything can either be denied, or else ignored because it's not something that one desires to acknowledge as real.

Get grace, then you'll have eyes to see and ears to hear Truth. Then, having been sufficiently gifted with Godly humility, you'll be guided toward the multitudinous miracles we have become aware of.

 

[xianghua]

Uh huh, and you and I are just another variation of mammal.

depend what kind of mammal.

 

[xianghua]

Because the self replicating molecule adds complexity OVER MANY GENERATIONS. Since cars don't reproduce, they lack the mechanism by which to do this.

so if we had a self replicating molecule it can evolve stepwise into a car?

 

[xianghua]

. With living (biological) organisms there are reproductive processes at work which can allow for genetic modifications.

ok. but i do talking about self replicating organic molecule. so it should be possible in such a case.