Futurist Only The Scroll of the Revelation - facts not seen at first

[Zao is life]

Nobody ever sealed a blank scroll. A lot of people have made the mistake, though, of thinking that the seals are the scroll, or what's written in the scroll.

A veil is not the article hidden under it. After the king's decree has been written in the scroll, the scroll is sealed until it becomes time to break open the seals and unroll the scroll, so that the king's decree can be read, and the book of Revelation is packed with types and antitypes (example Babylon of old vs Babylon the Great), as well as symbolic imagery, (example Revelation 1:20); as well as metaphor, simile and hyperbole, not to mention "Markan Sandwiches".

The scroll - any scroll - once sealed will remain sealed until the time chosen by the king for his will to be made known, and the king may choose who will have the right to break open the seals. The scroll of the Revelation already existed as a decree in the mind of God before it was unveiled by Jesus, the only one worthy to have opened the seals (Revelation 5:5), who unveiled it to His churches via His apostle John, and so it became a written scroll.

====================​

Once the seventh of seven seals was opened, the scroll was now ready to unroll, and the first thing that we see in the scroll is the seven angels who have been appointed to carry out God's judgment:

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.". (Revelation 8:6).

GOD'S JUDGMENT:
"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake"​

The door that had been opened in heaven for John immediately before he was made aware of the scroll, allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, so that he could be shown the scroll that was still sealed with seven seals, and John saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, and we see it again in the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh plague or bowl of wrath:

This 7-7-7 repetition is reminiscent of the walls of Jericho falling the seventh time the people marched around the city on the seventh day, when the seventh trumpet sounded (Joshua 6:1-20). There were seven priests blowing seven trumpets - this is why we see the seven angels with seven trumpets when the seventh seal has been opened.

The opening of the seals is the lifting of the veil, i.e the apocalypse or revelation of what has been decreed by God, and it was all (including the metaphoric / symbolic imagery in the seals, as well as the judgments decreed which are contained in the Logos of God) written by John into one scroll, but it's not a case of "first the things seen in the seals are 'going to take place', then after this .."

Aside from the fact that the metaphoric / symbolic imagery seen in the seals are not the decreed judgments written in the scroll, any sequence of events contained in apocalyptic biblical literature is never written in a strictly chronological manner.

 

[Zao is life]

THE SONG OF MOSES
and its significance​

In Revelation 15:2-4 we see "those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" singing the song of Moses.

The Song of Moses was sung after God's people had crossed the Red Sea, after they had been delivered from great tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, and after the judgment of the beast and his armies Pharaoh and his armies coincided with their redemption:

God's people were still in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out upon Pharaoh, and God's two witnesses (Moses and Aaron) were themselves bringing plagues of God upon Egypt. The locust plagues and turning the waters to blood are included in those plagues.

In the midst of the visions John is seeing regarding the 6th of 7 last plagues (which are also called "bowls of wrath") Jesus Himself interjects,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16:15).

Until now, we did not see Jesus Himself speaking directly to His people between His seventh and final message to the seven churches, and the above (He has not been quoted as Jesus Himself speaking since the seventh message to the seventh church, until now).

What did Jesus say in His seventh message to the seventh of the seven churches about the shame of nakedness?

After Revelation 16:15 (quoted above) Jesus Himself is quoted as speaking directly to His people again only after the judgment, when He declares that He now makes all things new (Revelation 21:3-8). So who is Jesus telling to watch for His return and to keep their garments in Revelation 16:15, if not His own people, bearing in mind that the 7th (and last) plague in the Revelation speaks of the judgment of the beast?

In Revelation 16:15 Jesus is telling us at what point He will come. This is how "the kings of the earth" seen in the 6th seal know at what point the day of His wrath has come:

The biblical type: "Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace. He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the most high God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire."

The antitype: "And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Daniel 3:26; Revelation 11:12).

 

[Zao is life]

White horse, red horse​

The two types of crown identified in the Greek New Testament are stéphanos (crowns) and diádēma (royal diadem).

The origin of the stéphanos crown was the wreathe bestowed by the monarch upon victorious athletes in the ancient Greek games, which was worn on the head. Hence the stéphanos was a symbol of honor upon the head of the one who wore it, and is associated with victory. It's the crown repeatedly promised to the saints who overcome.

The word stéphanos (crown) is used in the same sense as above throughout the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 9:24-25; James 1:12; Philippians 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 3:11; Revelation 4:4; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 12:1; and Revelation 14:14.

In the Revelation, saints and 24 elders and the woman of Revelation 12 are given stéphanos crowns, the dragon and 10 kings are wearing diádēma, the locusts of the fifth trumpet that come out of the bottomless pit are also wearing something that has the appearance of stéphanos crowns, but though they look like the real thing, they are not the real thing.

Christ is seen wearing a stéphanos where He is called the Son of man, and many diádēma where He is called King of kings and Lord of lords.

Whatever type of crown the New Testament always associates with the word stéphanos (crown) is the type of crown the New Testament is teaching us to associate with the rider of the white horse in the first seal in Revelation chapter 6.

The same goes for the color white: Whatever the Revelation associates with the color white in each and every other verse where the color white appears, is what the Revelation is teaching us to associate with the rider of the white horse.

In the Revelation everything that's associated with the color white is pure:

Jesus' head and hair appear white like wool (Rev 1:14).
A white stone with a saint's name written on it (Rev 2:17).
The white raiment of the saints (Rev.3:5 & 18; 6:11; 7:9, 13 & 14).
The white clothing of the 24 elders (Rev 4:4).
The white clothing of angels (Rev 15:6).
The white raiment of the bride of Christ (Rev 19:8).
The Great White Throne (Rev 20:11).
Christ seated on a white cloud (Rev 14:14).
Christ returns on a white horse, leading His armies (Rev 19:11 & 14).
Christ's armies are riding white horses (Rev 19:14).
The first horseman of the first seal in the Apocalypse is riding a white horse (Revelation 6:2). He is given a stéphanos (crown).

Christ's armies are following Him on white horses in Revelation 19:14 (for thousands of years horses were used in battle).

You've probably heard it said by a Bible prophecy teacher, or seen it written in a commentary somewhere that the first horseman written about in the first seal is "the Antichrist", but this imagery is symbolic, a metaphor for something other than the literal things seen in the visions John was seeing - John was in the Spirit when he received the Revelation.

The first horseman written about in the first seal has a bow, but no arrows are mentioned, yet he went forth conquering and to conquer.

"Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts." (Zechariah 4:6) .

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
See His banner go!
(19th century hymn).

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone will hurt them, so it is right for him to be killed. These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire." (Rev.11:3-6).

THE SECOND SEAL: A RED HORSE AND NO CROWN​

In contrast to the first one, the second horseman is riding a red (Greek: pyrrhós) horse, which is the exact same color of the dragon in Revelation 12:3, and these two verses (Revelation 6:4 - the red horse of the second seal - and Revelation 12:3 - the red dragon) are the only two verses in the entire New Testament where the word pyrrhós is used.

The rider on the red horse is given a great sword and "power was given to him sitting on it, to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another" (Revelation 6:4) *

* Revelation 13:2 tells us that the red dragon of Revelation 12:3 will give the beast his seat, his power, and great authority.

The rider of the red horse is not given a crown. He is given a "sword" (again, it's a metaphorical sword) and he uses it to take peace from the earth and to cause people to kill one another.

"Then the sons of Moses and Israel sang this song to the LORD, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the LORD, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider He has thrown into the sea." (Exodus 15:1).

 

[iamlamad]

Nobody ever sealed a blank scroll. A lot of people have made the mistake, though, of thinking that the seals are the scroll, or what's written in the scroll.

A veil is not the article hidden under it. After the king's decree has been written in the scroll, the scroll is sealed until it becomes time to break open the seals and unroll the scroll, so that the king's decree can be read, and the book of Revelation is packed with types and antitypes (example Babylon of old vs Babylon the Great), as well as symbolic imagery, (example Revelation 1:20); as well as metaphor, simile and hyperbole, not to mention "Markan Sandwiches".

The scroll - any scroll - once sealed will remain sealed until the time chosen by the king for his will to be made known, and the king may choose who will have the right to break open the seals. The scroll of the Revelation already existed as a decree in the mind of God before it was unveiled by Jesus, the only one worthy to have opened the seals (Revelation 5:5), who unveiled it to His churches via His apostle John, and so it became a written scroll.

====================​

Once the seventh of seven seals was opened, the scroll was now ready to unroll, and the first thing that we see in the scroll is the seven angels who have been appointed to carry out God's judgment:

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.". (Revelation 8:6).

GOD'S JUDGMENT:
"Voices, thunderings, Lightnings, and an earthquake"​

The door that had been opened in heaven for John immediately before he was made aware of the scroll, allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, so that he could be shown the scroll that was still sealed with seven seals, and John saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" when God speaks: We see it in Exodus 20:18, we see it used in poetic form by David in 2 Samuel 22:14-15, and we see it again in the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh plague or bowl of wrath:

View attachment 333240

This 7-7-7 repetition is reminiscent of the walls of Jericho falling the seventh time the people marched around the city on the seventh day, when the seventh trumpet sounded (Joshua 6:1-20). There were seven priests blowing seven trumpets - this is why we see the seven angels with seven trumpets when the seventh seal has been opened.

The opening of the seals is the lifting of the veil, i.e the apocalypse or revelation of what has been decreed by God, and it was all (including the metaphoric / symbolic imagery in the seals, as well as the judgments decreed which are contained in the Logos of God) written by John into one scroll, but it's not a case of "first the things seen in the seals are 'going to take place', then after this .."

Aside from the fact that the metaphoric / symbolic imagery seen in the seals are not the decreed judgments written in the scroll, any sequence of events contained in apocalyptic biblical literature is never written in a strictly chronological manner.

God showed me years ago that He "marked" (His word, not mine) the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th bowl ends it.

Good job on when the book gets opened: as soon as all the seals have been opened! The book is the lease document of this world. I believe Adam was given a 6000 year lease. I believe this lease expires at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

 

[Zao is life]

God showed me years ago that He "marked" (His word, not mine) the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th bowl ends it.

Good job on when the book gets opened: as soon as all the seals have been opened! The book is the lease document of this world. I believe Adam was given a 6000 year lease. I believe this lease expires at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to:

1. Finish the transgression; and
2. Make an end of sins; and
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity; and
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness; and
5. Seal up the vision and prophecy; and
6. Anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.

(It's the same as saying, "after the first 69 weeks Messiah will be cut off, but not for Himself").

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31)

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27b).

Isaiah 1:10-14
"Hear the word of the LORD, rulers of Sodom; give ear to the law of our God, people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly!
Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them."

Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You have prepared a body for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have had no pleasure.
Then I said, Lo, I come ( in the volume of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God."

The 70th week was about the coming of the Messiah, not about the man of sin.

The prophecy also stated that for the overspreading of abominations (plural) the city and its sanctuary was to be destroyed by the prince of the people who were to come (something that happened 40 years later).

The remaining 3.5 years of the 70th year is the only part of the 70th week that remained after the Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week - but the Messiah's Kingdom had come in power - the power of the Holy Spirit - 50 days after He was cut off - and the good news that the prophecy had been fulfilled, and the Messiah had come, began to be preached everywhere by His disciples - long before the 70th week closed.

The Revelation only mentions the final 3.5 years of the Age - the beast's rule. The Revelation says nothing about a "483rd to a 490th year" (70th 'week of years'). The notion has to be dragged from the first century when Messiah was crucified, to the time of His return, after adding an additional week to the 70th week - because Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, i.e after the 69th week.

But there weren't 71 'weeks' Daniel prophesied about - only 70 weeks. And counting from the decree to restore and build Jerusalem to the Messiah, was not 2,000 years. It was 490 years.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.

 

[iamlamad]

Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to:

1. Finish the transgression; and

The 70th week was about the coming of the Messiah, not about the man of sin.

Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to:

1. Finish the transgression; and
2. Make an end of sins; and
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity; and
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness; and
5. Seal up the vision and prophecy; and
6. Anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.

(It's the same as saying, "after the first 69 weeks Messiah will be cut off, but not for Himself").

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31)

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27b).

Isaiah 1:10-14
"Hear the word of the LORD, rulers of Sodom; give ear to the law of our God, people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly!
Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them."

Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You have prepared a body for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have had no pleasure.
Then I said, Lo, I come ( in the volume of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God."

The 70th week was about the coming of the Messiah, not about the man of sin.

The prophecy also stated that for the overspreading of abominations (plural) the city and its sanctuary was to be destroyed by the prince of the people who were to come (something that happened 40 years later).

Some people believe as you do, but millions believe the entire 70th week is still future.

Since Jesus showed me that He marked the entire week in Revelation with sevens, I am going to believe Jesus, not you. The truth is, when Daniel wrote verses 26 and 27, he inserted a GAP before the 70th week. That gap has been ongoing.

Your first point was "to finish the transgression."
That is what is happening during the 70th week. It is for DANIEL"s people, the descendants of Jacob. Their week goes from Chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation, with the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet.

 

[iamlamad]

White horse, red horse​

The two types of crown identified in the Greek New Testament are stéphanos (crowns) and diádēma (royal diadem).

The origin of the stéphanos crown was the wreathe bestowed by the monarch upon victorious athletes in the ancient Greek games, which was worn on the head. Hence the stéphanos was a symbol of honor upon the head of the one who wore it, and is associated with victory. It's the crown repeatedly promised to the saints who overcome.

The word stéphanos (crown) is used in the same sense as above throughout the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 9:24-25; James 1:12; Philippians 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 3:11; Revelation 4:4; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 12:1; and Revelation 14:14.

In the Revelation, saints and 24 elders and the woman of Revelation 12 are given stéphanos crowns, the dragon and 10 kings are wearing diádēma, the locusts of the fifth trumpet that come out of the bottomless pit are also wearing something that has the appearance of stéphanos crowns, but though they look like the real thing, they are not the real thing.

Christ is seen wearing a stéphanos where He is called the Son of man, and many diádēma where He is called King of kings and Lord of lords.

Whatever type of crown the New Testament always associates with the word stéphanos (crown) is the type of crown the New Testament is teaching us to associate with the rider of the white horse in the first seal in Revelation chapter 6.

The same goes for the color white: Whatever the Revelation associates with the color white in each and every other verse where the color white appears, is what the Revelation is teaching us to associate with the rider of the white horse.

In the Revelation everything that's associated with the color white is pure:

Jesus' head and hair appear white like wool (Rev 1:14).
A white stone with a saint's name written on it (Rev 2:17).
The white raiment of the saints (Rev.3:5 & 18; 6:11; 7:9, 13 & 14).
The white clothing of the 24 elders (Rev 4:4).
The white clothing of angels (Rev 15:6).
The white raiment of the bride of Christ (Rev 19:8).
The Great White Throne (Rev 20:11).
Christ seated on a white cloud (Rev 14:14).
Christ returns on a white horse, leading His armies (Rev 19:11 & 14).
Christ's armies are riding white horses (Rev 19:14).
The first horseman of the first seal in the Apocalypse is riding a white horse (Revelation 6:2). He is given a stéphanos (crown).

Christ's armies are following Him on white horses in Revelation 19:14 (for thousands of years horses were used in battle).

You've probably heard it said by a Bible prophecy teacher, or seen it written in a commentary somewhere that the first horseman written about in the first seal is "the Antichrist", but this imagery is symbolic, a metaphor for something other than the literal things seen in the visions John was seeing - John was in the Spirit when he received the Revelation.

The first horseman written about in the first seal has a bow, but no arrows are mentioned, yet he went forth conquering and to conquer.

"Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts." (Zechariah 4:6) .

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
See His banner go!
(19th century hymn).

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone will hurt them, so it is right for him to be killed. These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire." (Rev.11:3-6).

THE SECOND SEAL: A RED HORSE AND NO CROWN​

In contrast to the first one, the second horseman is riding a red (Greek: pyrrhós) horse, which is the exact same color of the dragon in Revelation 12:3, and these two verses (Revelation 6:4 - the red horse of the second seal - and Revelation 12:3 - the red dragon) are the only two verses in the entire New Testament where the word pyrrhós is used.

The rider on the red horse is given a great sword and "power was given to him sitting on it, to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another" (Revelation 6:4) *

* Revelation 13:2 tells us that the red dragon of Revelation 12:3 will give the beast his seat, his power, and great authority.

The rider of the red horse is not given a crown. He is given a "sword" (again, it's a metaphorical sword) and he uses it to take peace from the earth and to cause people to kill one another.

"Then the sons of Moses and Israel sang this song to the LORD, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the LORD, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider He has thrown into the sea." (Exodus 15:1).

Are you trying to say that the white horse and rider are to represent the church sent out with the gospel? If you were, they we agree.
Seals 2, 3, and 4, the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider, represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together. God has allowed the devil to try and stop the gospel using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. However, God limited them in their theater of operation to only one fourth of the earth. I would guess that 1/4 would cover Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

Where did two world wars begin? Europe.

 

[iamlamad]

THE SONG OF MOSES
and its significance​

In Revelation 15:2-4 we see "those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" singing the song of Moses.

The Song of Moses was sung after God's people had crossed the Red Sea, after they had been delivered from great tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, and after the judgment of the beast and his armies Pharaoh and his armies coincided with their redemption:

View attachment 333241

God's people were still in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out upon Pharaoh, and God's two witnesses (Moses and Aaron) were themselves bringing plagues of God upon Egypt. The locust plagues and turning the waters to blood are included in those plagues.

In the midst of the visions John is seeing regarding the 6th of 7 last plagues (which are also called "bowls of wrath") Jesus Himself interjects,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16:15).

Until now, we did not see Jesus Himself speaking directly to His people between His seventh and final message to the seven churches, and the above (He has not been quoted as Jesus Himself speaking since the seventh message to the seventh church, until now).

What did Jesus say in His seventh message to the seventh of the seven churches about the shame of nakedness?

After Revelation 16:15 (quoted above) Jesus Himself is quoted as speaking directly to His people again only after the judgment, when He declares that He now makes all things new (Revelation 21:3-8). So who is Jesus telling to watch for His return and to keep their garments in Revelation 16:15, if not His own people, bearing in mind that the 7th (and last) plague in the Revelation speaks of the judgment of the beast?

In Revelation 16:15 Jesus is telling us at what point He will come. This is how "the kings of the earth" seen in the 6th seal know at what point the day of His wrath has come:

View attachment 333242

The biblical type: "Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace. He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the most high God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire."

The antitype: "And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Daniel 3:26; Revelation 11:12).

View attachment 333243

View attachment 333244

I disagree with your "metaphors."

 

[David Kent]

Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to:

1. Finish the transgression; and
2. Make an end of sins; and
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity; and
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness; and
5. Seal up the vision and prophecy; and
6. Anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.

(It's the same as saying, "after the first 69 weeks Messiah will be cut off, but not for Himself").

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31)

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27b).

Isaiah 1:10-14
"Hear the word of the LORD, rulers of Sodom; give ear to the law of our God, people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly!
Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them."

Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You have prepared a body for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have had no pleasure.
Then I said, Lo, I come ( in the volume of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God."

The 70th week was about the coming of the Messiah, not about the man of sin.

The prophecy also stated that for the overspreading of abominations (plural) the city and its sanctuary was to be destroyed by the prince of the people who were to come (something that happened 40 years later).

The remaining 3.5 years of the 70th year is the only part of the 70th week that remained after the Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week - but the Messiah's Kingdom had come in power - the power of the Holy Spirit - 50 days after He was cut off - and the good news that the prophecy had been fulfilled, and the Messiah had come, began to be preached everywhere by His disciples - long before the 70th week closed.

The Revelation only mentions the final 3.5 years of the Age - the beast's rule. The Revelation says nothing about a "483rd to a 490th year" (70th 'week of years'). The notion has to be dragged from the first century when Messiah was crucified, to the time of His return, after adding an additional week to the 70th week - because Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, i.e after the 69th week.

But there weren't 71 'weeks' Daniel prophesied about - only 70 weeks. And counting from the decree to restore and build Jerusalem to the Messiah, was not 2,000 years. It was 490 years.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.

Thanks. That is pretty obvious isn't it?

But you will never convince futurists because they have been indoctrinated.

 

[David Kent]

Are you trying to say that the white horse and rider are to represent the church sent out with the gospel? If you were, they we agree.
Seals 2, 3, and 4, the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider, represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together. God has allowed the devil to try and stop the gospel using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. However, God limited them in their theater of operation to only one fourth of the earth. I would guess that 1/4 would cover Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

Where did two world wars begin? Europe.

And who was mainly responsible for them? The papacy. Why hoping to extend its kingdom by eliminating the two that it hates most, England and Russia. He used Napoleon against Russia, as well as England. Then Hitler for the same reason. In between he used Franco to put Spain back under his sway. See Avro Manhattan, The Catholic Church against the Twentieth Century. And.
The Spanish Holocaust: Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth-Century Spain
Book by Paul Preston

After the war he used America for his aims, with McArthy, a great blot on US history. The pogrom known as Mcarthyism. It got the USA Into the Vietnam War, to support a vile Catholic dictator, and of course the communists. They haven't given up. The present Pope was in charge of the RCC in Argentina during the rule of the Generals when thousands "disappeared". He made no effort to free any of those apart from a few priests. And of course I expect he was behind the Falklands invasion.

 

[Lost Witness]

THE SONG OF MOSES
and its significance​

In Revelation 15:2-4 we see "those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" singing the song of Moses.

The Song of Moses was sung after God's people had crossed the Red Sea, after they had been delivered from great tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, and after the judgment of the beast and his armies Pharaoh and his armies coincided with their redemption:

View attachment 333241

God's people were still in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out upon Pharaoh, and God's two witnesses (Moses and Aaron) were themselves bringing plagues of God upon Egypt. The locust plagues and turning the waters to blood are included in those plagues.

In the midst of the visions John is seeing regarding the 6th of 7 last plagues (which are also called "bowls of wrath") Jesus Himself interjects,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16:15).

Until now, we did not see Jesus Himself speaking directly to His people between His seventh and final message to the seven churches, and the above (He has not been quoted as Jesus Himself speaking since the seventh message to the seventh church, until now).

What did Jesus say in His seventh message to the seventh of the seven churches about the shame of nakedness?

After Revelation 16:15 (quoted above) Jesus Himself is quoted as speaking directly to His people again only after the judgment, when He declares that He now makes all things new (Revelation 21:3-8). So who is Jesus telling to watch for His return and to keep their garments in Revelation 16:15, if not His own people, bearing in mind that the 7th (and last) plague in the Revelation speaks of the judgment of the beast?

In Revelation 16:15 Jesus is telling us at what point He will come. This is how "the kings of the earth" seen in the 6th seal know at what point the day of His wrath has come:

View attachment 333242

The biblical type: "Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace. He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the most high God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire."

The antitype: "And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Daniel 3:26; Revelation 11:12).

View attachment 333243

View attachment 333244

The Great Tribulation is a Great furnace.
"But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved"

 

[Zao is life]

Are you trying to say that the white horse and rider are to represent the church sent out with the gospel? If you were, they we agree.
Seals 2, 3, and 4, the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider, represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together. God has allowed the devil to try and stop the gospel using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. However, God limited them in their theater of operation to only one fourth of the earth. I would guess that 1/4 would cover Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

Where did two world wars begin? Europe.

The seals that seal the scroll that the events are written in are not the events that are written in the scroll. The seals are imagery and are symbolic, unveiling the scroll for us, so that we understand what is written in the scroll.

Personally I believe, although I have no proof, that the first horse and its rider represent the two witnesses, whose power is Christ. The 2nd - the red horse, represents the beast, whose power is the dragon (which is why the word for "red" is the same for the dragon and the red horse, and the only two places in the entire New Testament where that word is used).

 

[Zao is life]

Some people believe as you do, but millions believe the entire 70th week is still future.

Since Jesus showed me that He marked the entire week in Revelation with sevens, I am going to believe Jesus, not you. The truth is, when Daniel wrote verses 26 and 27, he inserted a GAP before the 70th week. That gap has been ongoing.

Your first point was "to finish the transgression."
That is what is happening during the 70th week. It is for DANIEL"s people, the descendants of Jacob. Their week goes from Chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation, with the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet.

I know not everyone believes the same thing with regard to when Daniel's 70th week would occur. The Messiah was cut off after the 69th week, not during the 69th week, according to the text and the Hebrew word achar in verse 26. But we don't agree so we won't bother to argue about it, because that would be pointless.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks. That is pretty obvious isn't it?

But you will never convince futurists because they have been indoctrinated.

It isn't obvious to everyone, and you're right that not everyone is convinced.

 

[Zao is life]

I disagree with your "metaphors."

It's obvious we don't agree on a few things, so I gave your post a Like.

 

[Zao is life]

Some people believe as you do, but millions believe the entire 70th week is still future.

Since Jesus showed me that He marked the entire week in Revelation with sevens, I am going to believe Jesus, not you. The truth is, when Daniel wrote verses 26 and 27, he inserted a GAP before the 70th week. That gap has been ongoing.

Your first point was "to finish the transgression."
That is what is happening during the 70th week. It is for DANIEL"s people, the descendants of Jacob. Their week goes from Chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation, with the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

The hour of temptation is going to come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth (Revelation 3:7-13), when the harlot, Babylon the Great will be destroyed in one hour (Revelation 18:10, 17, 19) by ten kings who will be reigning for one hour with the beast (Revelation 17:12-13), who will be given authority to continue for 42 months (Revelation 13:5), while he makes war against the saints and overcomes them (Revelation 13:7).

The hour of trial is not two hours (42 months + 42 months), but one hour (42 months).

 

[Zao is life]

God showed me years ago that He "marked" (His word, not mine) the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th bowl ends it.

The Revelation is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants (plural) things which must shortly come to pass, and it was addressed to the seven churches (plural), i.e to all the saints . And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John (only John).

The only individual saint whom God revealed anything to about anything written in the book of Revelation was John, and through him, to all the saints.

So whatever you say is your interpretation of what is written (by John) - Jesus does not and will not reveal anything to anyone individually about the Revelation that He has already revealed to John individually, because His Revelation is to all His servants (plural) in all the churches (plural) (seven is a complete number).

So God did not show you personally anything about anything in the book of Revelation, and whenever what you say finds one or two, or many people in disagreement with what you say, then it means you could be wrong, because it's the way you are interpreting what has already been revealed to someone else (John) and to all Christ's servants via that someone else.

The Holy Spirit is our help, but He helps all equally, and we are all equally capable of getting our minds and understanding befuddled by our own imaginations. If what you say is not true then the Holy Spirit did not give you that understanding and God has not "shown it to you" - it was your own imagination,

I disagree with what you are saying and what you have based it on, and so do many others. What you are saying about the seven years is your interpretation of what God gave to Jesus to give to all His saints and revealed it to one individual - John - but what you have said regarding the seven years is not true. So God did not show you what you think - it was your imagination, IMO.

If someone does not say why he believes something to be the case by supporting what he is saying with scripture, but instead claims that "God showed him" that what he is saying is the case, then that is already a red flag for me.

I'm not saying that to be argumentative or seek an argument (I really don't want to, and won't get into argumentativeness) - I'm just being honest with someone who, after telling me that "God showed him" something, asked me in an argumentative tone whether he should believe me, or God about "what God showed him".

The written word is what counts. Does the written word produce the belief expressed by you regarding the seven years?

I believe it does not. You believe it does. Therefore we know that we disagree - so we don't need to ask one another in an argumentative tone whether we should believe the other person, or God. I do not believe you are believing God, but your own imagination, but I'd rather you believe your own imagination than me - because I only would want anyone to believe scripture, and if someone disagrees with me about something, it means that their interpretation of scripture is different to mine.

 

[David Kent]

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
See His banner go!
(19th century hymn).

Onward, Christian soldiers,Marching as to war,
LOOKING UNTO Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
See His banner go!
(19th century hymn). Evangelical version.
I

 

[David Kent]

It isn't obvious to everyone, and you're right that not everyone is convinced.

The early dispensationalists believed it was 3½ years, which is also what I was taught when I was in the Brethren and they were one of the early dispensationalists.

The first dispensationalists that I have been able to trace, The Catholic Apostolic Church, i.e. the Irvingites taught that it was 3½ years, and tha the rapture would be in July 1835, reminds me of the SDA, JWs and the Worldwide Church of God, (Armstrongites)

I have asked on several forums that if anyone cound show proof of anyone preaching on dispensationalism before that I would accept it, but no one has.

Many commentators on prophecy used the words "this dispensation" but they were not futurists.

 

[iamlamad]

The seals that seal the scroll that the events are written in are not the events that are written in the scroll. The seals are imagery and are symbolic, unveiling the scroll for us, so that we understand what is written in the scroll.

Personally I believe, although I have no proof, that the first horse and its rider represent the two witnesses, whose power is Christ. The 2nd - the red horse, represents the beast, whose power is the dragon (which is why the word for "red" is the same for the dragon and the red horse, and the only two places in the entire New Testament where that word is used).

Most people pull the first seals out of their context (chapters 4 and 5) without a moment's hesitation, and come up will wrong thinking.
This is just the visible part of the iceberg, so to speak. John saw the moment Jesus ascended, entered the throne room, and sent the Holy Spirit down. Then, the first think Jesus did was go and get the book and began, right then, around 32 AD, opening seals.

This book was created in the courtroom of heaven. I suspect that Satan was in God's face demanding (he is the god of this world) that before the 70th week can begin (what is written INSIDE the book) all 7 seals must first be removed from the book. I am convinced that Satan demanded, if Jesus was the send the church out into his world, he then must have a legal right to try and stop the advance of the gospel.

As I see it, the first seal (opened as soon as Jesus ascended) is at the same timeframe as the great commission, and represents the church taking the gospel to the world. God then allowed Satan to try to stop the church using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. This is seals 2, 3, and 4. However, God limited the devil to only one forth of the earth. I suspect this would take in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. History certainly fits this theory, with two world wars and countless others over the church age taking place in this one fourth of the earth.

Finally, since Satan is the god of this world, as the church progressed (too new territory) with the gospel, martyrs were the result. This is the 5th seal.