The Scriptures and Authority

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The faithfull are those that belong to the True Church. United in one belive and practice. That is the Catholic Church which teaches what it has been handed down to it by Jesus and the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their succesors.

1. So the Mormons claim.... ANYONE (with sufficient ego) can self-claim ANYTHING. Doesn't make it infallibly correct.

2. Yes, the RCC officially agrees with itself currently. All denominations do. There's nothing unique about the RC denomination officially agreeing with itself.

3. The Catholic Church as ZERO evidence that the distinctive teachings of that denomination come from the Apostles. They have NOTHING from ANY of the 13 Apostles that teaches that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin, that Mary was assumed into heaven upon her death (or nondeath depending on your view there), that the bread and wine are only Aristotelian accidents, that the Pope is infallible. NONE of the distinctive dogmas of the RCC have ANY confirmation or verification from ANYTHING from the Apostles. We all know that.

4. This self-claim is even more incredible as we realize that many of these distinctive dogmas of the RCC come from CENTURIES after the Apostles were all dead. Aristotle's bebunked theory of accidents, for example, was not even so much as MENTIONED vis-a-vis the Eucharist until the mid 9th Century, not declared correct until the 13th and not declared dogma until the 16th. There is not only ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle EVER taught it, but it's usually admitted by Catholics that nor did any of the RCC's own chosen "Catholic Church Fathers." It comes from neither the Apostles or the Scriptures or even RCC Tradition, and yes, it's DOGMA.

Nor does it judge the individual faith of others.

Absurd.

You do know that Luther was excommunicated, Wycliff burned at the stake. You do know about the Inquasition? You do know about the plethora of "anathemas" from the Council of Trent? I have been called a "heretic" repeatedly at this forum by Catholics.

It would be good for position if the CCC actually stated that.

This is what #87 says.

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Yup.


To question the RCC is to question Jesus Himself. You are COMMANDED, often, to accept WHATEVER the RCC says "with docility." You must lay aside all the stern, frequent, divine warnings about false prophets, false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray and just accept WHATEVER the teacher of the RCC says "with docility." You must act differently than the Ephesian Christians that gained the praise of Jesus Himself in Revelation 2:2. You must follow the example of Eve and just accept what you are told. With docility. Whether you do or not, I'm sure, is another issue. You may not be faithful and may be condemned by your Catechism # 87.




.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by lionroar0 The faithfull are those that belong to the True Church. United in one belive and practice. That is the Catholic Church which teaches what it has been handed down to it by Jesus and the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their succesors.

To question the RCC is to question Jesus Himself. You are COMMANDED, often, to accept WHATEVER the RCC says "with docility." You must lay aside all the stern, frequent, divine warnings about false prophets, false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray and just accept WHATEVER the teacher of the RCC says "with docility." You must act differently than the Ephesian Christians that gained the praise of Jesus Himself in Revelation 2:2. You must follow the example of Eve and just accept what you are told. With docility. Whether you do or not, I'm sure, is another issue. You may not be faithful and may be condemned by your Catechism # 87.

Why do we need the Pope and Roman heirarchy to tell us that?

2 Thess 2:9 Whom is the Parousia according to in-working/energeian <1753> of the Adversary in all power and signs and miracles of falsehood.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I am giving out of the synagogue/sun-agwghV <4864> of the Adversary, to the ones saying selves Judeans [CHRIST-ians] to-be and not they are, but they are falsifying.
Behold, I shall be making them that they should be arriving/hxwsin <2240> (5661), and they shall be worshipping in view of the feet of You, and they may be knowing that I Love You.

 

[lionroar0]

Why do we need the Pope and Roman heirarchy to tell us that?

2 Thess 2:9 Whom is the Parousia according to in-working/energeian <1753> of the Adversary in all power and signs and miracles of falsehood.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I am giving out of the synagogue/sun-agwghV <4864> of the Adversary, to the ones saying selves Judeans [CHRIST-ians] to-be and not they are, but they are falsifying.
Behold, I shall be making them that they should be arriving/hxwsin <2240> (5661), and they shall be worshipping in view of the feet of You, and they may be knowing that I Love You.

Well only if ur Catholic u listen to the Pope and the Bishops who is the head pastor of the CC.

The point i'm getting to is that the Catholic Cathecism is primarily written for Catholics.

The Cathecism is a summation of Catholic Tradition for Catholics.

So since ur not Catholic you are not held to Catholic belives.

You are held to another Christians tradition.

So you 've seen any good movies lately?


Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well only if ur Catholic u listen to the Pope and the Bishops who is the head pastor of the CC.

The point i'm getting to is that the Catholic Cathecism is primarily written for Catholics.

The Cathecism is a summation of Catholic Tradition for Catholics.

So since ur not Catholic you are not held to Catholic belives.

You are held to another Christians tradition.

So you 've seen any good movies lately?


Peace

I haven't been to a movie in about a year as I have plenty of movie channels to watch on TV.

I get more entertainment on the Apologetics and NCR boards on this forum.

http://foru.ms/t6246394-analysis-religion-is-a-virus.html
-analysis-religion-is-a-virus

 

[lionroar0]

1. So the Mormons claim.... ANYONE (with sufficient ego) can self-claim ANYTHING. Doesn't make it infallibly correct.

So the principle of Sola Scriptura is not an infallagle principle? It could actually be wrong?

The Faith Alone is not infallable and it couls actually be wrong also?

2. Yes, the RCC officially agrees with itself currently. All denominations do. There's nothing unique about the RC denomination officially agreeing with itself.

And the prob is with the CC agreeing with itself is?

3. The Catholic Church as ZERO evidence that the distinctive teachings of that denomination come from the Apostles. They have NOTHING from ANY of the 13 Apostles that teaches that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin, that Mary was assumed into heaven upon her death (or nondeath depending on your view there), that the bread and wine are only Aristotelian accidents, that the Pope is infallible. NONE of the distinctive dogmas of the RCC have ANY confirmation or verification from ANYTHING from the Apostles. We all know that.

The same can be said of Lutherism. The same can be said of any church.

We get it your not Catholic and disagree with the Catholic Church.

4. This self-claim is even more incredible as we realize that many of these distinctive dogmas of the RCC come from CENTURIES after the Apostles were all dead. Aristotle's bebunked theory of accidents, for example, was not even so much as MENTIONED vis-a-vis the Eucharist until the mid 9th Century, not declared correct until the 13th and not declared dogma until the 16th. There is not only ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle EVER taught it, but it's usually admitted by Catholics that nor did any of the RCC's own chosen "Catholic Church Fathers." It comes from neither the Apostles or the Scriptures or even RCC Tradition, and yes, it's DOGMA.

The Apostles don't mention Sola Fida nor Sola Scriptura either and these Things were not metioned till the 1600's but that seems to be okay with you.

You do know that Luther was excommunicated, Wycliff burned at the stake. You do know about the Inquasition? You do know about the plethora of "anathemas" from the Council of Trent? I have been called a "heretic" repeatedly at this forum by Catholics.

I wonder why? Maybe cause ur regortitating of argumets that have been daelt with already?

Like Protestants where little angels and didn't same to Catholics. As if...

Yup.

To question the RCC is to question Jesus Himself. You are COMMANDED, often, to accept WHATEVER the RCC says "with docility." You must lay aside all the stern, frequent, divine warnings about false prophets, false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray and just accept WHATEVER the teacher of the RCC says "with docility." You must act differently than the Ephesian Christians that gained the praise of Jesus Himself in Revelation 2:2. You must follow the example of Eve and just accept what you are told. With docility. Whether you do or not, I'm sure, is another issue. You may not be faithful and may be condemned by your Catechism # 87.

And the Missouri Synods says that the Pope is the anti-christ.

Let me ask you something. Since you are part of that Synod do you belive that the Pope is the anti-christ?

Or are you free to disagree with that and still be part of that Synod?

Let's take it a step further on in addition.

If you disagreed with Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura would you still be a Lutheran? If you did not accept these with docility would you still be a Lutheran?

Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

I believe it.
But only as a shadow-fulfillment.
Sort of like a warm up act to the guy on the white horse who will bring peace to the mideast for a few years.

I got lawn chairs & a cooler out in the yard. I'm ready.

The Apostles don't mention Sola Fida nor Sola Scriptura either and these Things were not metioned till the 1600's but that seems to be okay with you.

How many times did the apostles say "Trinity", or "Bible"?
When did they mention infallability & how many centuries later was that defined?(about 18?)

 

[Qoheleth]

The Apostles don't mention Sola Fida nor Sola Scriptura either and these Things were not metioned till the 1600's

Agreed and further proof in the pudding is that they neither wrote of it, lived like it, or taught of it and this we know in the writings of their disciples and so on and so on...


Q

 

[lionroar0]

How many times did the apostles say "Trinity", or "Bible"?
When did they mention infallability & how many centuries later was that defined?(about 18?)

Your question brings to my next point.

We belive in our traditions. We require no absolute proof that they are true. So to ask for proof of Catholic traditions or non-catholic traditions is ridiculous.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Agreed and further proof in the pudding is that they neither wrote of it, lived like it, or taught of it and this we know in the writings of their disciples and so on and so on...

I agree. I don't see them having been historically taught till the reformation.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Agreed and further proof in the pudding is that they neither wrote of it, lived like it, or taught of it and this we know in the writings of their disciples and so on and so on...

Q

Hi. Did they believe the Parousia of the Lord and End of the Age had already occured and what dates are you talking about on those writings?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount/orouV <3735> of the Olives, the disciples toward-came/proshlqon <4334> near to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the sign/shmeion <4592> of the/thV <3588> Thy/shV <4674> ParousiaV <3952>, and of the/thV <3588> full-End/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the age/aiwnoV <165>?'

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast/sthrixai <4741> of ye, the hearts/kardiaV blamebless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him.

 

[racer]

umm ah nope.

#92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."

Lion,

Can you explain what you are saying with this statement. I haven't been following the discussion very closely and am curious as to what you are tryin to say? Is this a quote from the Catechism?

 

[lionroar0]

Lion,

Can you explain what you are saying with this statement. I haven't been following the discussion very closely and am curious as to what you are tryin to say? Is this a quote from the Catechism?

I'll try. Yes it is a quote from the Cathechism.

Basically it says that when the whole Church. All the way from the Pope to the laity express a consent in a matter of faith and moral, (abortion, Immaculate Conception,) that is the Holy Spirit speaking through the whole Church and since it's the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church then it is infallable.

It isnt' the Pope using his faculty of infallability to come up with something new, because it fits his fancy.

He is just stating that the whole Church is in consent in regards to this certain matters of faith and morals.

The infallanbility of the Holy Spirit is speaking through the whole Church and is communicated through the Pope through out the whole Church to keep the Church united in matters of faith and morals.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'll try. Yes it is a quote from the Cathechism.

Basically it says that when the whole Church. All the way from the Pope to the laity express a consent in a matter of faith and moral, (abortion, Immaculate Conception,) that is the Holy Spirit speaking through the whole Church and since it's the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church then it is infallable.

It isnt' the Pope using his faculty of infallability to come up with something new, because it fits his fancy.

He is just stating that the whole Church is in consent in regards to this certain matters of faith and morals.

The infallanbility of the Holy Spirit is speaking through the whole Church and is communicated through the Pope through out the whole Church to keep the Church united in matters of faith and morals.

Peace

Hi. As far as the pope goes, is there anywhere in the Creeds that state a denomination has to have a Pope?
You realize that is the main "bone of contention" between the Roman and Greek denominations, correct?

John 11:48 "If ever we should be leting Him thus, All will be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us, and the Place/topon <5117> and the Nation."

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el [Daniel 12] and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither [was] Place/topoV <5117> found of-Them still in the heaven.

 

[disasm]

Hi. As far as the pope goes, is there anywhere in the Creeds that state a denomination has to have a Pope?
You realize that is the main "bone of contention" between the Roman and Greek denominations, correct?

John 11:48 "If ever we should be leting Him thus, All will be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us, and the Place/topon <5117> and the Nation."

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el [Daniel 12] and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither [was] Place/topoV <5117> found of-Them still in the heaven.

I've been wondering for a while now... If the pope is the single ultimate authority that can override any Bishop, how come in St. John's Apocalypse, 21:14, the foundation of the city is 12 stones with each one having the name of the apostles of the lamb on them. If the pope was meant to override all others, why wouldn't it be a foundation of one stone of the pope, and the other 11 being built above that foundation?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

 

[simonthezealot]

See what King Josiah had to say...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings 22:13 ;&version=47;

 

[StTherese]

See what King Josiah had to say...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings 22:13 ;&version=47;

2 Kings 22:13 (English Standard Version)
13"Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found. For great is(A) the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."

Was the NT even written then?

I agree that the scriptures are authoritative by the standards of their true interpretation which has been passed down through the Church. No where in the Bible does it say it is the only authority, nor does it say that everything that is true can be found in them....but it does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation for truth.

 

[IamAdopted]

2 Kings 22:13 (English Standard Version)
13"Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found. For great is(A) the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."

Was the NT even written then?

I agree that the scriptures are authoritative by the standards of their true interpretation which has been passed down through the Church. No where in the Bible does it say it is the only authority, nor does it say that everything that is true can be found in them....but it does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation for truth.

The pillar is the upholder of the truth that is found in Scripture where Jesus instructs us that truth is found. He does not instruct us that the truth shall be found in the church but in Gods word.. The church is to be the upholder of this truth..

 

[StTherese]

The pillar is the upholder of the truth that is found in Scripture where Jesus instructs us that truth is found. He does not instruct us that the truth shall be found in the church but in Gods word.. The church is to be the upholder of this truth..

Which is exactly why we have 1000s of denominations today....personal interpretation of scripture.

 

[simonthezealot]

....but it does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation for truth.

Funny thing In Rev 2 and 3, we see the descriptions of numerous errors in the "church"

 

[simonthezealot]

Which is exactly why we have 1000s of denominations today....personal interpretation of scripture.

Personal interpretations that include the basic gospel truths are better than wrong interpretations which promote a false gospel.