The Scriptures and Authority

[racer]

Augustine’s Confessions, Book XIII

Chapter XV.—Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.

16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. . . .

17. . . . . Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such “pure”13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.

18. . . . The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away. . . . .

 

[Rick Otto]

Hey Rick, if your gonna cherry-pick info. from someones web-site and use it as your own, you should at least site the source and give them credit


http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers-hilary.htm


Any way lots of swiss cheese here


Q

And I should get some props for condensation, but I guess with the new rules, maybe I shouldn't be so paranoid about posting what usualy get labeled "Anti~" sites.
I've been Indian burned by the mods for that at least a few times before they wikified & were forced to have a sense of humor.

I agree the graphics & presentation are toward the bleak, ,,,c'mon, they want a piece 'o ya!
Take 'em down, Clint. They look like they feel lucky!

Now I'd like to hear what ya got to say about a couple other sites as well! I love articulate criticism.
How can you top "swiss cheese"?
..."Geneva Berries"?

 

[StTherese]

Augustine’s Confessions, Book XIII

Chapter XV.—Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.

16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. . . .

17. . . . . Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such “pure”13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.

18. . . . The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away. . . . .

Thank you racer, for your posts. It is difficult for me to understand this concept of sola scriptura.

The Bible is inspired by God. It is His Holy Word and I consider it as such with the upmost respect and reverence. I am very thankful that we have the scriptures. I just don't understand why scripture only?

Then there are those who say well, if it is not in the Bible then it is not true....yet at the same time they will admit that the Bible can not possibly contain ALL truth.

How can everything be measured by the scriptures????
For example, my father does not believe in the Trinity...he is a oneness Pentecostal. He reads the Bible (the KJV) and yet he says that it supports his beliefs. The doctrine of the Trinity is not plainly laid out in the scriptures...therefore there must be some other source of Truth in which we have this knowledge....

 

[Rick Otto]

I believe you have to keep it in perspective: How does your Father's Oneness belief affect his obeying the two greatest commandments?

 

[DeaconDean]

Not even discussing the Scriptures - let alone authority . It certainly could not mean the Scriptures because it is taling about something He is saying every day - not reading something He said many years ago . The Scriptures *may* be regarded as being a record of what *did* proceed from His mouth . They are *not* what *is* proceeding from His mouth .




If so , why don't you use a translation that accurately interpreted the word ? If the translators had that word wrong , they could have made hundreds or thousands of incorrect interpretations . Either way , authority is not mentioned .

Also , when Paul wrote that , he only considered the Law and the Prophets to be the Scriptures . Yet , even though the context is about the Law and the Prophets and people *say* it is about authority of the Scriptures , the majority that agree with the doctrine say that the Law is not to be followed . That is a rejection of the doctrine and it certainly throws out the passage used because it states *all* Scripture .




Scriptures are plural - the term "word of God" is singular . That doesn't fit . "God breathed" does not mean "word" . Also , the Scriptures use the term "word of God" for many different words . The term is is used in the newer writings ( what many call "New Testament" ) exclusively or almost exclusively to the Gospel - not any writings .




Where is "bible" in the "bible" ? Meaning "all of Scriptures" collected ?




Yet , you had to use passages that were not related and none of which had authority and then rip them apart and present reasoning to come to the conclusion . Why was there not simply a list of passages from the "Scriptures only" that were clear and presented the doctrine accurately ? Why were the Scriptures not good enough that the Baptists thought to say that their translation being used was not good enough in itself but had to go by an alternative phrasing ?

It is contradictory to use anything but the Scriptures to prove the Scriptures Only doctrine . The passages whould be clear or they violate the doctrine that the Scriptures interpret themselves and are clear enough .

Let me give you this and I'll shut up:

Christ's View of Scripture
by Leland M. Haines​

One of the most important questions to ask is, What was Christ's view of the Scriptures? The answer to this question is found in several New Testament passages.
One indication of Christ's view of Scripture is found in His reply to the Jewish charge that He committed blasphemy by making Himself equal with God. In His reply He appealed to Scripture and added the statement, "The scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). Christ believed Scripture was authoritative. For Him there was no question about breaking or setting aside Scripture, because it is God's revealed truth.
A record of how Christ viewed the authority of Scripture is found in the account of His temptations in the wilderness, which occurred after a forty-day-and-night fast. The tempter said to Christ, "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." Christ answered, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:3, 4; cf. Deut. 8:3). Every time he tempted Christ, the devil's words were ineffective, since God had revealed the truth through the Scripture. Christ introduced each of His answers by, "It is written" (Matt. 4:7, 10). This statement is used in the Bible to refer to the Word of God only. Jesus also stated that we are to live by "every word," not just by a part of Scripture, but by all of its words and teachings.
Jesus made other "it is written" statements. When He cleansed the temple, He said, "It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves" (Matt. 21:13). In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus told His disciples they would be scattered because "it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad" (26:31; cf. Zech. 13:7). He used the authoritative words "it is written" to show that the Word of God justified Jesus' actions. This authoritative formula showed that He believed the Old Testament was absolute truth.
Jesus also used "it was said" statements (Matt. 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38, 43). These statements referred to the revelation given by Moses to the Israelites. The disciples had heard the law expounded many times, but Jesus was going to give man a New Covenant. His disciples were to live by His "I say unto you."
When the Sadducees asked about marriage, Jesus replied, "Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?" (Mark 12:24). He then asked, "Have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" (v. 26; Ex. 3). He then told the Sadduces that God was the God of the living; there was a resurrection (v. 27). They "greatly err" because they did not turn to the Scripture to seek their answer but reasoned among themselves. Jesus confirmed that the Scriptures contained what "God spake," and His Word was clear and easy to understand. These leaders erred, as all others who err, because they "know not the scriptures."
In connection with the rich man who tore down his barns to build bigger ones, Jesus remarked, "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee" (Luke 12:20). This may be a paraphrase of Jeremiah 17:11 or an instance Jesus recalled from history. This shows that Jesus believed God did speak to man and His communications could be understood. If man can understand the spoken Word, surely he can understand the written Word.
In one of His prayers, Jesus said that His disciples are not of the world and therefore live on a much higher plain. He asked God the Father, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). They were to live by truth, and this truth is known because "thy word is truth." Earlier Jesus spoke that "God is true" (3:33; cf. 7:28; 8:26) and about "the Spirit of truth" (14:17; cf. 16:13). He bore witness to Himself: "He that cometh from above is above all. . . . And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth. . . . For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him" (3:31-34). Jesus Christ spoke the "words of God" to His disciples, and they in turn wrote the same word.
Jesus believed God spoke through His prophets, such as Moses and Jeremiah, to give men His commandments. This is evident in His response to the Pharisees and scribes' question about His disciples transgressing the traditions of the elders. Jesus asked them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death" (Matt. 15:1?7; cf. Ex. 20:12; Jer. 35:18, 19).
Jesus further revealed His view of Scripture in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man asked Abraham to warn his brothers so they would not go to hell, the place of torment. Christ said, "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he [the rich man] said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:29-31; cf. vs. 19-28). Christ, by relating this incident, gave His support to Abraham's view that Scripture is sufficient for man's redemption, and if men will not believe it, they will not be persuaded. Jesus viewed Scripture as the all?sufficient means to reveal the Way.
On another occasion Jesus expressed this view again. He told the Jews, "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify [bear witness] of me. . . . For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:39, 46, 47). The Old Testament Scriptures bear witness to Christ and are on the same level as His own Word; they are to be believed. Jesus believed the Scriptures are authoritative and trustworthy so that man's belief about Himself and His redemptive mission can be directly tied to them.

http://www.bibleteachings.org/christview.html

And just so you'll know, I use a Hebrew/Greek Interlieaner Bible, as well as my KJV.

The earliest Baptist Confession, The Philadelphia Confession of 1742 says:

"The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience; although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times, and in divers manners to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment, and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased."

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc01.htm

Jesus viewed the OT as authoritative. I view the Bible as authoritative, and basicly, thats all there is to it. End of discussion.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Let me give you this and I'll shut up:

Christ's View of Scripture
by Leland M. Haines​

One of the most important questions to ask is, What was Christ's view of the Scriptures? The answer to this question is found in several New Testament passages.
One indication of Christ's view of Scripture is found in His reply to the Jewish charge that He committed blasphemy by making Himself equal with God. In His reply He appealed to Scripture and added the statement, "The scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). Christ believed Scripture was authoritative. For Him there was no question about breaking or setting aside Scripture, because it is God's revealed truth.
A record of how Christ viewed the authority of Scripture is found in the account of His temptations in the wilderness, which occurred after a forty-day-and-night fast. The tempter said to Christ, "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." Christ answered, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:3, 4; cf. Deut. 8:3). Every time he tempted Christ, the devil's words were ineffective, since God had revealed the truth through the Scripture. Christ introduced each of His answers by, "It is written" (Matt. 4:7, 10). This statement is used in the Bible to refer to the Word of God only. Jesus also stated that we are to live by "every word," not just by a part of Scripture, but by all of its words and teachings.
Jesus made other "it is written" statements. When He cleansed the temple, He said, "It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves" (Matt. 21:13). In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus told His disciples they would be scattered because "it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad" (26:31; cf. Zech. 13:7). He used the authoritative words "it is written" to show that the Word of God justified Jesus' actions. This authoritative formula showed that He believed the Old Testament was absolute truth.
Jesus also used "it was said" statements (Matt. 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38, 43). These statements referred to the revelation given by Moses to the Israelites. The disciples had heard the law expounded many times, but Jesus was going to give man a New Covenant. His disciples were to live by His "I say unto you."
When the Sadducees asked about marriage, Jesus replied, "Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?" (Mark 12:24). He then asked, "Have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" (v. 26; Ex. 3). He then told the Sadduces that God was the God of the living; there was a resurrection (v. 27). They "greatly err" because they did not turn to the Scripture to seek their answer but reasoned among themselves. Jesus confirmed that the Scriptures contained what "God spake," and His Word was clear and easy to understand. These leaders erred, as all others who err, because they "know not the scriptures."
In connection with the rich man who tore down his barns to build bigger ones, Jesus remarked, "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee" (Luke 12:20). This may be a paraphrase of Jeremiah 17:11 or an instance Jesus recalled from history. This shows that Jesus believed God did speak to man and His communications could be understood. If man can understand the spoken Word, surely he can understand the written Word.
In one of His prayers, Jesus said that His disciples are not of the world and therefore live on a much higher plain. He asked God the Father, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). They were to live by truth, and this truth is known because "thy word is truth." Earlier Jesus spoke that "God is true" (3:33; cf. 7:28; 8:26) and about "the Spirit of truth" (14:17; cf. 16:13). He bore witness to Himself: "He that cometh from above is above all. . . . And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth. . . . For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him" (3:31-34). Jesus Christ spoke the "words of God" to His disciples, and they in turn wrote the same word.
Jesus believed God spoke through His prophets, such as Moses and Jeremiah, to give men His commandments. This is evident in His response to the Pharisees and scribes' question about His disciples transgressing the traditions of the elders. Jesus asked them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death" (Matt. 15:1?7; cf. Ex. 20:12; Jer. 35:18, 19).
Jesus further revealed His view of Scripture in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man asked Abraham to warn his brothers so they would not go to hell, the place of torment. Christ said, "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he [the rich man] said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:29-31; cf. vs. 19-28). Christ, by relating this incident, gave His support to Abraham's view that Scripture is sufficient for man's redemption, and if men will not believe it, they will not be persuaded. Jesus viewed Scripture as the all?sufficient means to reveal the Way.
On another occasion Jesus expressed this view again. He told the Jews, "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify [bear witness] of me. . . . For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:39, 46, 47). The Old Testament Scriptures bear witness to Christ and are on the same level as His own Word; they are to be believed. Jesus believed the Scriptures are authoritative and trustworthy so that man's belief about Himself and His redemptive mission can be directly tied to them.

http://www.bibleteachings.org/christview.html

And just so you'll know, I use a Hebrew/Greek Interlieaner Bible, as well as my KJV.

The earliest Baptist Confession, The Philadelphia Confession of 1742 says:

"The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience; although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times, and in divers manners to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment, and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased."

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/pc01.htm

Jesus viewed the OT as authoritative. I view the Bible as authoritative, and basicly, thats all there is to it. End of discussion.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yep . As usual , those you shout "Scripture Only" cannot prove their doctrine with Scripture only . They use all sorts of things as well . They violate the doctrine that they are trying to prove . They use the Scriptures in passing ( many times only a reference ) because the main ideas are their own words that they insert .

Looking at post 10 again with only the Scriptures provided as the poster's "proof" :

"...man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (KJV)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God," (KJV)

Ok . None of those passages discuss authority . They certainly don't discuss Scriptures *alone* .


In the other post ( above ) , once again , they do not rely on the Scriptures alone to make the point . They have to go on and on to explain why they are authoritative . So , Scriptures are not being used *alone* .

There is also no discussion why those who *claim* the authority of the Scriptures say that the Law contained in the Scriptures is authoritative to *them* . Yet , the passages that they claim *prove* "Scripture Only" were contextually discussing the older writings containing the Law . They use a passage stating "all Scriptures" indicating that *all Scriptures* are authoritative yet they dismiss the Law - which has direct quotes from the Lord . Again , in their rationalizations for why they do this , they do not use Scripture passages alone . They will spend page after page of their own writings to explain why the Scriptures are not clear enough on their own to justify "all Scriptures" being authoritative except the ones they don't like .

By their own actions , they prove that they themselves do not agree with Scriptures alone to prove doctrine and that they don't consider that *all* Scriptures are authoritative to them .

I would also like to point out that the poster not only *did not* presented "Scriptures Only" , but also decided to present another's way of reasoning the doctrine . Why is that not basing their doctrine on tradition ? Is that not what the RC and EO do ? Are they not proving that they rely on tradition when they do this ?

Since the poster has closed their case , it shows that the case doesn't have a leg to stand on . Yes ... "end of 'discussion' " .

 

[Markea]

If a GREAT KING (the King of kings in this case) went on a far journey, and left you His written instructions, would you have the King's authority in your hand, or not..

I can't believe how people cannot associate one with the other.. if it's the word of God, then it is directly from His authority..

 

[racer]

Thank you racer, for your posts. It is difficult for me to understand this concept of sola scriptura.

The Bible is inspired by God. It is His Holy Word and I consider it as such with the upmost respect and reverence. I am very thankful that we have the scriptures. I just don't understand why scripture only?

Because it's the only established, known, unchanging, and unquestionable source available to us today. You and I can take a Bible--Catholic or not--that is printed today and compare it to a Bible (if we were blessed enough to get our hands on one) that was printed by Gutenburg and find very few, if any, differences. Still, that does not go to say that we do not need instruction in our understanding of Scripture.

Then there are those who say well, if it is not in the Bible then it is not true....

What "I" say is if it's not in Scripture it's one or two things, or three . . . 1) we can't prove it 2) we can't disprove it 3) God did not believe it to be pertinent to our salvation.

That's why you won't see me in the discussions regarding Mary---these issues are not proven or disproven in Scripture. I believe, therefore, God did not intend that we focus on these subjects.

yet at the same time they will admit that the Bible can not possibly contain ALL truth.

It can't. And, that's not what Sola Scriptura teaches.

How can everything be measured by the scriptures?

Because that is the tool by which God intended us to measure ourselves as Christians and Churches. Do we conduct ourselves as they did? Are we following the instructions Jesus delivered to His apostles?

For example, my father does not believe in the Trinity...he is a oneness Pentecostal. He reads the Bible (the KJV) and yet he says that it supports his beliefs.

Sola Scriptura does not assert that people won't abuse or misunderstand Scripture. In fact, Scripture tells us that we can distort it to our "own" destruction. That is not to say that we're to completely ignore what our own discernment and common sense tells us and submit unquestioningly to a group that asserts that it has all the "correct" answers and that we shouldn't trust ourselves. That's a big red flag to me. Why would Scripture tell us to beware false prophets/gospels or wolves in sheep's clothing if we're not to trust ourselves? If we can not properly discern the word of God, why would we be given this warning? How do we recognize a false gospel if we see one?

The doctrine of the Trinity is not plainly laid out in the scriptures...therefore there must be some other source of Truth in which we have this knowledge....

The word "trinity" is not in Scripture, but the theology of it is delivered in the Gospel. Augustine addresses this, also. If I have time or get time, I'll look it up.

God bless!

Lisa (aka: racer)

 

[Oye11]

So how do you know your interpretations are correct? Why are there so many different interpretations and doctrines and beliefs???

Because bible interpretation is difficult. The book is full of poetry and other literary devices, and it`s all set in a historical context from which we are 2 milleniums removed. Plus Chapter and verse numbers were added later. No verse is an island but beware of those jumping all over the place trying to prove a point. It is often very important to know who wrote the book, why, the setting of the time, common figures of speech, rhetorical styles, etc. Some say "well the Holy Spirit tells me what it means" and sure this happens but something is wrong when you got several people saying that but disagreeing. Plus virutally all bible students are using aids, study bibles with margain notes, commentaries, and original language studies that often carry denominational biases. But of course I say still read it. It has great devotional value and the simple message of Christ, trusting in him and instructions for Christian behavior are all pretty simple and clear.

 

[StTherese]

Because it's the only established, known, unchanging, and unquestionable source available to us today. You and I can take a Bible--Catholic or not--that is printed today and compare it to a Bible (if we were blessed enough to get our hands on one) that was printed by Gutenburg and find very few, if any, differences. Still, that does not go to say that we do not need instruction in our understanding of Scripture.

Exactly. So who is it that is the authoritative interpreter of the scriptures?

What "I" say is if it's not in Scripture it's one or two things, or three . . . 1) we can't prove it 2) we can't disprove it 3) God did not believe it to be pertinent to our salvation.

How do we know that the Bible was meant to contain ALL that is necessary for salvation?

That's why you won't see me in the discussions regarding Mary---these issues are not proven or disproven in Scripture. I believe, therefore, God did not intend that we focus on these subjects.

Does that mean we can not know the truth about that which is not plainly laid out in the Bible?

It can't. And, that's not what Sola Scriptura teaches.

Because that is the tool by which God intended us to measure ourselves as Christians and Churches. Do we conduct ourselves as they did? Are we following the instructions Jesus delivered to His apostles?

How do you know that?

Sola Scriptura does not assert that people won't abuse or misunderstand Scripture. In fact, Scripture tells us that we can distort it to our "own" destruction. That is not to say that we're to completely ignore what our own discernment and common sense tells us and submit unquestioningly to a group that asserts that it has all the "correct" answers and that we shouldn't trust ourselves. That's a big red flag to me. Why would Scripture tell us to beware false prophets/gospels or wolves in sheep's clothing if we're not to trust ourselves? If we can not properly discern the word of God, why would we be given this warning? How do we recognize a false gospel if we see one?

It could be that that verse was telling us to trust the Chruch's teachings not our own when it comes to false prophets...would there even be false prophets if they did not trust themselves more than the Church?

...we know them by their fruits.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exactly. So who is it that is the authoritative interpreter of the scriptures?

Ummm, the Orthodoxs?

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! fruit of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the geennhV <1067>?

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to Cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says 'Adonay Y@hovih.

 

[Fireinfolding]

MAN!!! Racer is HERE!! Where the heck have you been?

I cant believe ya abandoned ship sis

GOOD to SEE you up there BROWSING

 

[racer]

Exactly. So who is it that is the authoritative interpreter of the scriptures?

No, I don't think that I said "exactly" that. However, nobody denies the "teaching" authority of the Church. It is the exact identity of the Church and the extent of the authority we argue. Look at what 1 Corinthians says:

1Cr 12:4; Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cr 12:5; And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cr 12:6; And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cr 12:7; But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Cr 12:8; For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:9; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:10; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cr 12:11; But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1Cr 12:28; And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cr 12:29; [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
1Cr 12:30; Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Therese, we are all given “gifts of the spirit” accordingly. Look at verse 12:9 it says to some are given the gift of “faith.” That’s my gift--faith. My faith is that the spirit guides me to discernment to knowledge and understanding. Remember my quote from St. Augustine:

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

33. . . . that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. . . . To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it.The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; . . .

How do we know that the Bible was meant to contain ALL that is necessary for salvation?

Read what St. Augustine says above. The first step is becoming a believer and put our faith in God.

How do you suppose we are suppose to be able to recognize a false Gospel without employing personal discernment or interpretation?

Does that mean we can not know the truth about that which is not plainly laid out in the Bible?

Nope. It just means that that truth isn’t in the Bible and is not pertinent to salvation. Why would God make sure some of it was written down and leave some of it out?

How do you know that?

How do you know anything that you know about your church? You and every other Catholic practices personal discernment and interpretation, never mind that your interpretation or discernment leads you to believe in accordance with your Church.

It could be that that verse was telling us to trust the Chruch's teachings not our own when it comes to false prophets...

Well exactly how do we know “which is God’s Church?” How can one know this without private judgment and common sense?

would there even be false prophets if they did not trust themselves more than the Church?

These are the very words of Jesus, spoken to the apostles:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Pay special attention to the last verse. How do we try the spirits to see if they are of God without employing private interpretation?

...we know them by their fruits.

So, how do you determine that one church’s fruits are superior to another without exercising private judgment? How do you know that the RCC is “The Church,” and the others are inferior offshoots?

 

[racer]

MAN!!! Racer is HERE!! Where the heck have you been?

I cant believe ya abandoned ship sis

GOOD to SEE you up there BROWSING

Oh, I've been in the Church History sub-forum going a few rounds with a new guy "Jack the Catholic." I didn't abandon y'all, I just got sidetracked.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Oh, I've been in the Church History sub-forum going a few rounds with a new guy "Jack the Catholic." I didn't abandon y'all, I just got sidetracked.

I was busting on ya sis So thats where Jack went.... Now I gotta check your find all posts

Good to see you as always sis

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh, I've been in the Church History sub-forum going a few rounds with a new guy "Jack the Catholic." I didn't abandon y'all, I just got sidetracked.

If he is anything like "TheresaLittleFlower" you will have your hands pretty full. Good to see ya here.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if out-of the God they are, because many false-prophets have gone forth into the world;

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children/offspring in death; and all the assemblies shall know that I am the one-searching the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

[racer]

I, also, wanted to make a point about this verse:

1Cr 12:28; And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Look where church governments were ranked. They're nearly at the botton of the list . . . . just sumthin' to think about.

 

[racer]

If he is anything like "TheresaLittleFlower" you will have your hands pretty full. Good to see ya here.

Actually, he was a pretty amicable guy. It's nice to know that I've been missed, though.

 

[racer]

I was busting on ya sis So thats where Jack went.... Now I gotta check your find all posts

Good to see you as always sis

You'll find our discussion in this forum:

A lineage of Popes in unbroken succession

 

[Fireinfolding]

I, also, wanted to make a point about this verse:

1Cr 12:28; And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Look where church governments were ranked. They're nearly at the botton of the list . . . . just sumthin' to think about.

Wow right down there next to tongues