The Scriptures and Authority

[Ormly]

Is a 'yes' all I get or can I look for a little more to help me sort "these things" out??

 

[lionroar0]

Jesus never had a liturgy. He never even had a place to rest head ... and I am to believe in the robes of Rome?
.....I don't think so.

He never had a microphone. He never had a guitar. He nerver sang any of the modern hymns and christians songs.

He nerver had electricty or a computer. He never had a Bible either.

Your assertion is nonsensical.

I saw you pic in your profile. You have an organ and Jesus didn't.

Are you still a Christian?

 

[lionroar0]

Your right!
But He doesn't require a sucessor.

No He doesn't. The CC does not have succesors of Jesus.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He never had a microphone. He never had a guitar. He nerver sang any of the modern hymns and christians songs.

He nerver had electricty or a computer. He never had a Bible either.

Your assertion is nonsensical.

I saw you pic in your profile. You have an organ and Jesus didn't.

Are you still a Christian?

He also wasn't carried around like this or dressed like this.
He would probably crack a rib laughing when he sees this hat the pope is wearing.

 

[Ormly]

He never had a microphone. He never had a guitar. He nerver sang any of the modern hymns and christians songs.

He nerver had electricty or a computer. He never had a Bible either.

Your assertion is nonsensical.

I saw you pic in your profile. You have an organ and Jesus didn't.

Are you still a Christian?

Yes. But does any type of liturgy have any bearing upon my salvation; my love to God; my reverence for Him? Absolutely not. Is semblance without substance Ok in your thinking?

Must I swing on a certain church's gate before being baptised into the Body of Christ? Absolutely not. Must I first join a church before my salvation is made fast in Christ or must I not first be saved before ever being a part of HIS Church? And I don't mean the RCC, EO, Episcible or any other organised church claiming to be the true one?

I trust you can objectively answer that.

 

[lionroar0]

Yes. But does any type of liturgy have any bearing upon my salvation; my love to God; my reverence for Him? Absolutely not. Is semblance without substance Ok in your thinking?

You ask me to answer your question objectively but you have provided nothing that is objective.

There are two different things that you are asking in you post.

1st you are asking whether any type of liturgy has any bearing on your soul and your salvation.

My answer is yes. He asked us to partake of His Body and Blood and you are not.

You are putting your soul and salvation in jepardy by not partaking of the Eucharist, which is what He asked us to do.

Then you are making an assertion that the semblance of the liturgy is with out substance. You have not provided any objective knowledge of the liturgy.

It's not with in my privue to judge the substance or how much substance there is in another christian tradition form of worship.

Must I swing on a certain church's gate before being baptised into the Body of Christ? Absolutely not. Must I first join a church before my salvation is made fast in Christ or must I not first be saved before ever being a part of HIS Church? And I don't mean the RCC, EO, Episcible or any other organised church claiming to be the true one?

Your above questions is a strawman and also shows how much you don't know about the churches you have mentioned.

As neither of those churches teaches that you must become a member of that church to be part of the Body of Christ. Nor do they teach that affiliation with them is the only way to salvation.
I

trust you can objectively answer that.

I belive that I have.

Can you now please provide objective knowledge of the liturgy.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

He also wasn't carried around like this or dressed like this.
He would probably crack a rib laughing when he sees this hat the pope is wearing.

The problem is not what the Pope is wearing.

The problem is people. People must have visuals and symbols. We are physical till we get to heaven.

I think that He would also laugh at those preachers that have several multi dollar homes.

Peace

 

[Ormly]

You ask me to answer your question objectively but you have provided nothing that is objective.

There are two different things that you are asking in you post.

1st you are asking whether any type of liturgy has any bearing on your soul and your salvation.

My answer is yes. He asked us to partake of His Body and Blood and you are not.

Oh, but I do..

You are putting your soul and salvation in jepardy by not partaking of the Eucharist, which is what He asked us to do.

And you are damning yourself if you partake of it unworthily. He only invites His disciples to partake, not the unconverted nor the unrepentent backslider nor those of semblance in Christ without substance that speaks of their allegiance to Christ. Also, the "Eucharist", in your "Lliturgy" represents the crucifying AGAIN of Jesus. That is a serious no-no with severe consequences.


27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1 Corinthians 11:27-30 (KJV)

Then you are making an assertion that the semblance of the liturgy is with out substance. You have not provided any objective knowledge of the liturgy.

If God honors it I certainly I will. Can you support your notion that He does, given the above cautions?

It's not with in my privue to judge the substance or how much substance there is in another christian tradition form of worship.

Why not? The scripture lays that responsibility at your feet.

To date liturgy hasn't produced such fruit that I should be impressed; persuaded God has regard for it more than He does the beggar on the street who simply prays or the shepherd who cares for his yaks in lower Siberia. In fact, God probably has more regard for them because that is the best they can offer. Can "liturgy" observers say the same?

Your above questions is a strawman and also shows how much you don't know about the churches you have mentioned.

As neither of those churches teaches that you must become a member of that church to be part of the Body of Christ. Nor do they teach that affiliation with them is the only way to salvation.

You can't be serious??

now please provide objective knowledge of the liturgy.

Peace

You are asking me to provide you with knowledge I have forgotten 5 seconds after I ever sat down during any of my experiences in all my years.

But I don't care about liturgy. Liturgy is meaningless. Worship that can only be from the heart, is not. Liturgy is not worship but semblance. To have worship you must first have worshippers. Non-worshippers hide in liturgy, deceiving themselves. Most in main-stream churches are not worshippers. Most main-streams churches are "dead". Enter Rick Warren to to save the day by showing us how to "do" church the secular, CEO way.

Having gone through all this typing, I have a question that might help. In reviewing the words between us I am beginning to wonder we are explaining our understanding of what we believe liturgy to be? When I think of it I am not thinking of communion; your "Eucharist". If that is what you mean when speaking of liturgy then I will have to edit some of my remarks.

 

[Oblio]

Also, the "Eucharist", in your "Lliturgy" represents the crucifying AGAIN of Jesus. That is a serious no-no with severe consequences.

But since that is a Strawman, it doesn't really matter much.

Liturgy is not worship but semblance.

Meaningless opinion devoid of fact on your part. I'm betting you've never set foot in a Divine Liturgy, or if you did you weren't paying attention. Your above statement corroborates that.

To have worship you must first have worshippers.

I see plenty of worshipers in each Divine Liturgy. Once again you are wrong.

Non-worshippers hide in liturgy, deceiving themselves.

Can they ? Sure. Do they ? Perhaps. But Liturgy has nothing to do with this. You can hide just as easily in the entertainment that passes for worship in the modern evangelical churches recently born in the West. Any claim of this happening in Liturgical churches is just as fulfilled in yours. Only difference is, non-Liturgical Christians have an excuse, given the environment they must overcome.

 

[Rick Otto]

whatever.
wake me up when it's over.

 

[lionroar0]

If God honors it I certainly I will. Can you support your notion that He does, given the above cautions?

LOL. How can any one know what God honors and what He doesn't.LOL

It's totally absurd to ask me to show what God honors and what He doesn't.

Oh, but I do..

No you don't. You only partake of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit that's a fact. You do not partake of the Eucharist.

And you are damning yourself if you partake of it unworthily. He only invites His disciples to partake, not the unconverted nor the unrepentent backslider nor those of semblance in Christ without substance that speaks of their allegiance to Christ. Also, the "Eucharist", in your "Lliturgy" represents the crucifying AGAIN of Jesus. That is a serious no-no with severe consequences.

The state of my soul is between me and God. The liturgy does not represent a recrucifiction of Jesus. That is a straw man.

So far you have shown only ignorance of the liturgy. You have provided no objective evidence.

I suggest that you actually do some studying and get to know what the liturgy really is before you cause yourself further emberasement.

To date liturgy hasn't produced such fruit that I should be impressed; persuaded God has regard for it more than He does the beggar on the street who simply prays or the shepherd who cares for his yaks in lower Siberia. In fact, God probably has more regard for them because that is the best they can offer. Can "liturgy" observers say the same?

ROLF. It has only produced modern western and eastern culture as we know it. Also it has produced too many Saints to mention in this thread.

I have no idea who God regards more or less. That is between God and the individual christian. I do know that all prayer is communal and as long as it comes from the heart God will regard.

I suggest you go study what the liturgy actually is and not regurgitate what you have been told it is by those who are perpetuating a cycle of ignorance.

You can't be serious??

Yes I am. That is what they teach VS what you think they teach. It's a whole different picture now isn't it.

You are asking me to provide you with knowledge I have forgotten 5 seconds after I ever sat down during any of my experiences in all my years.

Which tells me you don't have no idea what you are talking about but yet proceed to talk about it. This is called being a hypocrite.

But I don't care about liturgy. Liturgy is meaningless. Worship that can only be from the heart, is not. Liturgy is not worship but semblance. To have worship you must first have worshippers. Non-worshippers hide in liturgy, deceiving themselves. Most in main-stream churches are not worshippers. Most main-streams churches are "dead". Enter Rick Warren to to save the day by showing us how to "do" church the secular, CEO way.

Now you posts have graduated from being hypocritical to being bigotted.

Because people do not worship as you do they are not worshiping. This is discrimination and bygotry.

Just another way of saying "We are Christians and they are not."

I see plenty of worshipers int the Liturgy. Maybe you should actually go to one and observe, instead of making baseless claims.

Having gone through all this typing, I have a question that might help. In reviewing the words between us I am beginning to wonder we are explaining our understanding of what we believe liturgy to be? When I think of it I am not thinking of communion; your "Eucharist". If that is what you mean when speaking of liturgy then I will have to edit some of my remarks.

There are many elements to the Liturgy both physicall and spiritual.

So far your understanding of the Liturgy has been lacking.

Peace

 

[Ormly]

LOL. How can any one know what God honors and what He doesn't.LOL

It's totally absurd to ask me to show what God honors and what He doesn't.

No you don't. You only partake of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit that's a fact. You do not partake of the Eucharist.



The state of my soul is between me and God. The liturgy does not represent a recrucifiction of Jesus. That is a straw man.

So far you have shown only ignorance of the liturgy. You have provided no objective evidence.

I suggest that you actually do some studying and get to know what the liturgy really is before you cause yourself further emberasement.



ROLF. It has only produced modern western and eastern culture as we know it. Also it has produced too many Saints to mention in this thread.

I have no idea who God regards more or less. That is between God and the individual christian. I do know that all prayer is communal and as long as it comes from the heart God will regard.

I suggest you go study what the liturgy actually is and not regurgitate what you have been told it is by those who are perpetuating a cycle of ignorance.



Yes I am. That is what they teach VS what you think they teach. It's a whole different picture now isn't it.



Which tells me you don't have no idea what you are talking about but yet proceed to talk about it. This is called being a hypocrite.



Now you posts have graduated from being hypocritical to being bigotted.

Because people do not worship as you do they are not worshiping. This is discrimination and bygotry.

Just another way of saying "We are Christians and they are not."

I see plenty of worshipers int the Liturgy. Maybe you should actually go to one and observe, instead of making baseless claims.



There are many elements to the Liturgy both physicall and spiritual.

So far your understanding of the Liturgy has been lacking.

Peace

You wouldn't be a RCC if you knew the truth. However, one must desire truth to learn it.

The "Babel" as in "Babylonian roots" of the RCC speaks loud and clear. Apparently you don't have ears to hear, to make distinctions between truth and error.

Too bad, but the day is coming when it will be louder.

 

[Ormly]

But since that is a Strawman, it doesn't really matter much.

Strawman!? After Moses lost out when he struck the rock in the desert twice? You need to read your Bible and stop relying upon others for your education.

Meaningless opinion devoid of fact on your part. I'm betting you've never set foot in a Divine Liturgy, or if you did you weren't paying attention. Your above statement corroborates that.

This side of Glory, what is a "divine liturgy"?

I see plenty of worshipers in each Divine Liturgy. Once again you are wrong.

CYA'ers and you call then worshippers.

You can hide just as easily in the entertainment that passes for worship in the modern evangelical churches recently born in the West. Any claim of this happening in Liturgical churches is just as fulfilled in yours. Only difference is, non-Liturgical Christians have an excuse, given the environment they must overcome.

On this we find agreement and I never intended NOT to have that cleared up.

But lets not go the road of regurgitating the miserable deeds of the RCC, OK, that will take us to speaking of its "purity" in Christ?

 

[Thekla]

Strawman!? After Moses lost out when he struck the rock in the desert twice? You need to read your Bible and stop relying upon others for your education.



This side of Glory, what is a "divine liturgy"?



CYA'ers and you call then worshippers.

On this we find agreement and I never intended NOT to have that cleared up.

But lets not go the road of regurgitating the miserable deeds of the RCC, OK, that will take us to speaking of its "purity" in Christ?

if you want answers to questions about the EO, you should visit the Congregational forum (The Ancient Way) ... it seems you have many misunderstandings that could be addressed there.

 

[Oblio]

Strawman!? After Moses lost out when he struck the rock in the desert twice? You need to read your Bible and stop relying upon others for your education.

Apparently you don't understand what a Strawman fallacy is. I'll restate so you will see:

We do not recrucify Christ in the Divine Liturgy, therefore presenting what you believe is allegorical evidence against such a practice is meaningless.

 

[Ormly]

Apparently you don't understand what a Strawman fallacy is. I'll restate so you will see:

We do not recrucify Christ in the Divine Liturgy, therefore presenting what you believe is allegorical evidence against such a practice is meaningless.

But it is the truth of transubstaniation in the "eucharist of the mass" that either don't recognize or the teaching of it has been sufficiently altered to disguise it. It is you, friend, who need to learn about those unbiblical things you practice and their unChristian origins. Would you like a history lesson or 2 or maybe 100 that will disqualify your organization?

Spare me your condescending attitude.

 

[Thekla]

But it is the truth of transubstaniation in the "eucharist of the mass" that either don't recognize or the teaching of it has been sufficiently altered to disguise it. It is you, friend, who need to learn about those unbiblical things you practice and their unChristian origins. Would you like a history lesson or 2 or maybe 100 that will disqualify your organization?

Spare me your condescending attitude.

to state that the teaching is an attempt to "disguise" something is a pretty huge accusation (and requires two millenia of deliberate and successful obfuscation). Even in the secular world, that is a vastly unlikely scenario.

If you would be interested in reading about Orthodox teachings,
Light from the Christian East, by James R. Payton Jr. (pub. by IVP Academic -- their motto is "Evangelically Rooted, Critically Engaged"). Payton is not Orthodox. I special ordered my copy through B&N.

 

[Ormly]

to state that the teaching is an attempt to "disguise" something is a pretty huge accusation (and requires two millenia of deliberate and successful obfuscation). Even in the secular world, that is a vastly unlikely scenario.

Not hardly, when it can be understood the RCC desires to reclaim lost territory and transubstantiation is a major obstacle to most they seek to restore to their organization.

If you would be interested in reading about Orthodox teachings,
Light from the Christian East, by James R. Payton Jr. (pub. by IVP Academic -- their motto is "Evangelically Rooted, Critically Engaged"). Payton is not Orthodox. I special ordered my copy through B&N.

You don't understand that all you are attempting is to persaude me of a poorly reasoned explanation from man concerning an unBiblical demonstration of the "Bread and the Wine" when the Scriptural expanation is quite clear in the matter: Your demonstration is wrong. Can it be said to you in any other way and be more correct?

Can it also be that you hold to the "Vicar's" [human] word rather than the [Divine] Word of God? You have persuaded me, that this is the case.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You wouldn't be a RCC if you knew the truth. However, one must desire truth to learn it.

The "Babel" as in "Babylonian roots" of the RCC speaks loud and clear. Apparently you don't have ears to hear, to make distinctions between truth and error.

Too bad, but the day is coming when it will be louder.

Hi. I don't believe the Roman church has anything to with end-times, as Paul stated this before the Roman papacy was formed.

http://foru.ms/t5366795-what-is-the-parousia-in-the-new-testament.html

2 Peter 3:4 and saying, `Where is the promise of the ParousiaV <3952> of Him? for from which the fathers were-reposed, all/panta <3956> these is continuing from beginning of creation;'

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him. [Matthew 24/Zech 14]

[NKJV] Zech 14:5 Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, all the saints with You.

 

[Thekla]

Not hardly, when it can be understood the RCC desires to reclaim lost territory and transubstantiation is a major obstacle to most they seek to restore to their organization.



You don't understand that all you are attempting is to persaude me of a poorly reasoned explanation from man concerning an unBiblical demonstration of the "Bread and the Wine" when the Scriptural expanation is quite clear in the matter: Your demonstration is wrong. Can it be said to you in any other way and be more correct?

Can it also be that you hold to the "Vicar's" [human] word rather than the [Divine] Word of God? You have persuaded me, that this is the case.

as I said, I'm not RC, nor do I wish to persuade you of anything. Rather, to make such charges requires a far deeper understanding, and the statements you have made indicate a somewhat cursory investigation. Again, I don't wish to persuade you; rather
I am encouraging you to look more deeply into the matter.