The Sabbath verses Sunday

[Aussie Pete]

You assume Peter and Luke were not deceived; I assume they were. I begin doubting Paul, you do not.

You reject the authority of Paul? No wonder you have no concept of grace.

 

[Aussie Pete]

What is it to be gathered in His name?

It is to meet together, as the body of Christ, for fellowship in the name of Jesus. That will usually include praise, worship, thanksgiving and teaching.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I genuinely appreciate your concern, but I believe it is misplaced. There are things I know, for example, I know that if I were raised and indoctrinated as an Orthodox, I would believe what you believe; if I were raised and indoctrinated into the Catholic Religion I would believe what they believe; if I were raised as a Muslim I would believe what they believe; if I were raised and indoctrinated as a Jew I would believe what they believe. God is looking for overcomers, Israelites.

The Catholic Church claims that Peter was the first Pope, I am not aware Peter ever called himself Father, or assumed the authority of God; Paul may not have used the “F”word, but he did refer to his congregation as his little children, and by abrogating circumcision he made them gentiles eternally.

Paul was the first Vicar of Christ, in sheep's clothing.

You have no basis for your claim, which is heretical. When did Paul claim to be pope? When did he try to take over the whole church as Catholicism did for centuries? The apostle John referred to the believers he wrote to as little children also. (1 John 2:1)Does that make him an alternate pope?

 

[HIM]

It is to meet together, as the body of Christ, for fellowship in the name of Jesus. That will usually include praise, worship, thanksgiving and teaching.

What is it to be in His name?

 

[sparow]

Jesus promised to be with us when we meet in His name. I do not recall any mention of the sabbath in that statement. See, I died to the Law. Now I live to God. Galatians 2:19. I expect that is in your bible too. If not, throw it away and get the real one.

I do not need your permission in anything to do with the things of God. I would love to bless you with truth and grace. You reject that. You prefer what comes through Moses to that which comes through Jesus. That's in your hands, not mine.

You do not understand the difference between your perceptions and mine.


Moses was spokesman for the Great God of Israel, who made a blood covenant with Israel. The Great God of Israel Established a foundation called the blood covenant, Then, as Jesus he confirms the foundational covenant, down to the point of shedding His blood.

Jesus and His Father are two witnesses to the same thing, you stamp your little foot insisting that Jesus and His father testify to different things and are not in agreement. You base your opinion on the appendage, stuck on the side of the great covenant and its confirmation, called the epistles of Paul.

 

[HIM]

You do not understand the difference between your perceptions and mine.


Moses was spokesman for the Great God of Israel, who made a blood covenant with Israel. The Great God of Israel Established a foundation called the blood covenant, Then, as Jesus he confirms the foundational covenant, down to the point of shedding His blood.

Jesus and His Father are two witnesses to the same thing, you stamp your little foot insisting that Jesus and His father testify to different things and are not in agreement. You base your opinion on the appendage, stuck on the side of the great covenant and its confirmation, called the epistles of Paul.

God through Jesus through Paul are all saying the same thing. God’s word.

 

[Lukaris]

Another covenant had been prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34 and the Lord Himself showed how brief ( but not simple) it actually is ( Matthew 7:12 per Matthew 7:1-12) & Matthew 22:36-40. Paul only preached according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ not his opinion ( John 13:34-35, Romans 13:8-10).

 

[sparow]

You have no basis for your claim, which is heretical. When did Paul claim to be pope? When did he try to take over the whole church as Catholicism did for centuries? The apostle John referred to the believers he wrote to as little children also. (1 John 2:1)Does that make him an alternate pope?

Heretic yes, heretic is when on gets up the nose of the Church, blasphemy no, blasphemy is when one gets up God's nose.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. But you are right Paul and John used the same Greek words; and that was a weak argument.

I would not accuse John, who also made mistakes, of usurping the authority of the Father.

 

[HIM]

Heretic yes, heretic is when on gets up the nose of the Church, blasphemy no, blasphemy is when one gets up God's nose.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. But you are right Paul and John used the same Greek words; and that was a weak argument.

I would not accuse John, who also made mistakes, of usurping the authority of the Father.

No. The issue is you really are not saying anything. Paul this, John that with nothing to substantiate it.

 

[sparow]

God through Jesus through Paul are all saying the same thing. God’s word.

As a line of rhetoric, how is that different to:

God through Jesus through Mohammad are all saying the same thing, God's word.

You could say Mohammad does not say the same as the God of Israel, and most Mohammedans would agree. Muslims would probably claim that Jews wrote the Bible to suit themselves.

I will offer some arguments, but my convictions came first and my arguments are after thoughts.

“God through Jesus through Paul”, for my mind this is blasphemy, we know that Jesus is equal to God, but who made Paul equal to Jesus and equal to God, Who is guilty? Some say Paul delivered the new covenant, so it stands to reason Paul would be mediator of that covenant.

Did God and Jesus agree with Paul on circumcision? Neither the Father, OT, or Jesus, NT, mentions the discontinuance of circumcision, the Father mentioned the HE would presume to change Law and time.

What is circumcision? Circumcision is a blood covenant, which means the death penalty is a possible consequence of it, to not be circumcise meant to be cast out, not a part of Israel. Circumcision was a prerequisite for all that followed. Now we have the covenant thrown in the dust bin.

 

[sparow]

No. The issue is you really are not saying anything. Paul this, John that with nothing to substantiate it.

I did give you my best shot.

 

[Lukaris]

In post #90 you apply some “line of rhetoric” to rationalize a matter of faith. It is reasonable to suspect by your own logic that you are not a Christian. I might as well say well what makes the prophets like Isaiah, expressing the word of God? It seems like Mohammad had credibility in what you say.

You seem to claim to have some special understanding of the Lord that Paul apparently does not. By a “line of rhetoric” I guess Mohammad has greater credibility than Paul. Jesus Christ said John the Baptist was the greatest and last of the prophets ( Matthew 11:11-13).

 

[sparow]

In post #90 you apply some “line of rhetoric” to rationalize a matter of faith. It is reasonable to suspect by your own logic that you are not a Christian. I might as well say well what makes the prophets like Isaiah, expressing the word of God? It seems like Mohammad had credibility in what you say.

You seem to claim to have some special understanding of the Lord that Paul apparently does not. By a “line of rhetoric” I guess Mohammad has greater credibility than Paul. Jesus Christ said John the Baptist was the greatest and last of the prophets ( Matthew 11:11-13).

I admit that I am a poor communicator. My allegiance is to Christ, not to Paul. My comparison was the relation of Mohammad to Christ verses Paul to Christ. Mohammad is more important than Jesus the Messiah in the Koran, Paul is more important in the mind of many Christians. Mohammad has no Biblical credibility and seems to be the father of terrorism.

 

[HIM]

As a line of rhetoric, how is that different to:

God through Jesus through Mohammad are all saying the same thing, God's word.

You could say Mohammad does not say the same as the God of Israel, and most Mohammedans would agree. Muslims would probably claim that Jews wrote the Bible to suit themselves.

Are you Messianic?

Jesus proclaimed God as His source of Strength and life. Paul proclaimed God through Jesus as His Source of Strength and life. Mohammed did not proclaim God through Jesus. What is the problem?

You mentioned thinking that John was not entirely inspired either. Does that include the Gospel or just his letters and the Revelation?

If you have no issues with the Gospel what do you see in chapter 17 in relation to what is just said second sentence above?

I will offer some arguments, but my convictions came first and my arguments are after thoughts.

“God through Jesus through Paul”, for my mind this is blasphemy, we know that Jesus is equal to God, but who made Paul equal to Jesus and equal to God, Who is guilty? Some say Paul delivered the new covenant, so it stands to reason Paul would be mediator of that covenant.

According to the Gospels everything Jesus did He did through the Father. Everything Paul Did He did through Christ through the Father.

Did God and Jesus agree with Paul on circumcision?

You bet.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

[sparow]

Are you Messianic?

Jesus proclaimed God as His source of Strength and life. Paul proclaimed God through Jesus as His Source of Strength and life. Mohammed did not proclaim God through Jesus. What is the problem?

You mentioned thinking that John was not entirely inspired either. Does that include the Gospel or just his letters and the Revelation?

If you have no issues with the Gospel what do you see in chapter 17 in relation to what is just said second sentence above?



According to the Gospels everything Jesus did He did through the Father. Everything Paul Did He did through Christ through the Father.

You bet.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

In a legal sense I am a Presbyterian, but not knowing their teaching, I do have a baptismal certificate. If you refer to the Messianic cult, no I am not one of those, I have no knowledge of their teaching. By the dictionary, “of the, inspired by hope or belief in a, messiah.” I am one of those.

Mohammedans use the scriptures differently to Jews and Christians , they line the Prophets up in a straight line, like ducks, they call Jesus a prophet and Mohammad is the later prophet, who received his stuff directly from Allah. By claiming to be a later revelation in the Jew/Christian system Mohammad shot himself in the foot.

“that John was not entirely inspired either.” I do not believe I said that; I am aware of what the word inspired means in the dictionary, but Christian usage of the word confounds me, it seams to be where spiritualism enters.

“If you have no issues with the Gospel what do you see in chapter 17 in relation to what is just said second sentence above? “ Chapter 17 of what?

“Everything Paul Did He did through Christ through the Father.” Did Paul say that or is it you saying that?

To the best of knowledge the only time Jesus spoke of circumcision was when he asked the Pharisees if they were breaking the Law when they circumcised a man on the Sabbath. There is hardly confirmation for not circumcising Gentiles, in John 7:22,23. There is no record of Jesus or the Father agreeing with Paul regarding the discontinuance of circumcision.

Circumcision is a number of things, it is Blood of the covenant, it is Sanctification, it is the shell into which everything else fits into. In the same manner that Israel was required to write the Law on their hearts and mind, so were they required to be circumcised from the world, sanctified in their hearts and mind.

 

[HIM]

To the best of knowledge the only time Jesus spoke of circumcision was when he asked the Pharisees if they were breaking the Law when they circumcised a man on the Sabbath. There is hardly confirmation for not circumcising Gentiles, in John 7:22,23. There is no record of Jesus or the Father agreeing with Paul regarding the discontinuance of circumcision.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

[sparow]

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I do not understand why you are quoting these verses, which in themselves are very useful, but have nothing to do with Paul assuming the authority to discontinue circumcision.

God is referring to the Sinai covenant and adding understanding. The English words are choices made by translators and with word for word translations, like the KJV, the words chosen by the translators, reflect their personal opinion, and can only be approximately equivalent anyway. Let us look at some different translations.

Deut 29:1These are the terms of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the Land of Moab; all this was in addition to the covenant which the Lord made with them at Mount Sinai.

Deut 39:1, I have set before you a Blessing and a curse. When all these things have happened to you, and you are living among the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you, you will remember the choice I gave you.

Duet 30:6, The Lord your God will give you and your descendants obedient hearts, so you will love him with all your heart, and continue to live in the land.

Deut 30:11, The command that I am giving you today is not too difficult, or beyond your reach. 12, It is not up in the sky, you do not have to ask, "who will go up and bring it down to us, so we can hear and obey it?"13. Nor is it on the other side of the ocean. You do not have to ask, "Who will cross the ocean and bring it to us, so we may hear it and obey it. 14, No, it is here with you. You know you can quote it so now obey it.

 

[Rose_bud]

To the best of knowledge the only time Jesus spoke of circumcision was when he asked the Pharisees if they were breaking the Law when they circumcised a man on the Sabbath. There is hardly confirmation for not circumcising Gentiles, in John 7:22,23. There is no record of Jesus or the Father agreeing with Paul regarding the discontinuance of circumcision.

Hi there

I believe what you are looking for is this...

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

Acts 15:23-29

 

[sparow]

Hi there

I believe what you are looking for is this...

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

Acts 15:23-29

You do not seem to be addressing my post that you quote, unless you picked out a portion, like - There is no record of Jesus or the Father agreeing with Paul. One could say Paul is mostly in agreement, regarding technicalities, but Paul is primarily an interpreter of scripture and debater; it is here that modern scholars erroneously use him as an authority.

 

[Rose_bud]

You do not seem to be addressing my post that you quote, unless you picked out a portion, like - There is no record of Jesus or the Father agreeing with Paul. One could say Paul is mostly in agreement, regarding technicalities, but Paul is primarily an interpreter of scripture and debater; it is here that modern scholars erroneously use him as an authority.

Hi yes. I wanted to address this portion of your post, ie Jesus and the Father not agreeing with Paul.

I intentionally highlighted the portion regarding the Holy Spirit, unless of course you don't believe He is God? As He appears to agree with the apostles, elders and Paul.