The Sabbath Day: Saturday or Sunday?

[Dkh587]

I know that is what you believe and you are free to do so. But do not go around telling others they are sinning against the Lord if they do not.

Colossians 2:16: "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths." Here it is merely mentioned, showing that it has been abolished in view of the Dispensation of Grace.

The Colossians were Sabbath keepers - Paul wasn't writing to people who didn't keep the Sabbath, but rather he was writing to people who were keeping the Sabbath, while encouraging them to not let anybody(pagans/those outside the body of Messiah) judge them for how they kept the Sabbath, except for those *in* the body of Messiah.

Paul wasn't writing to people who went to church on Sundays and ignored the Sabbath. Context is crucial, especially with Paul's letters.

 

[Dkh587]

Every day is a holy day for the faithful.

Maybe according to men, but not according to God

Only the 7th day, and the 7 holy days of God are... holy/set-apart.

We are commanded by Messiah to be holy every day, but that doesn't mean every day is holy. God defines what days are set-apart. He only listed 8 days: the Sabbath and the Holy days of Leviticus 23

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Sabbath = Saturday

Lord's day = Sunday

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The Colossians were Sabbath keepers - Paul wasn't writing to people who didn't keep the Sabbath, but rather he was writing to people who were keeping the Sabbath, while encouraging them to not let anybody(pagans/those outside the body of Messiah) judge them for how they kept the Sabbath, except for those *in* the body of Messiah.

Paul wasn't writing to people who went to church on Sundays and ignored the Sabbath. Context is crucial, especially with Paul's letters.

Context is crucial which is why I posted the previous verses where Paul's context is clearly pointing to those who would subjugate others to the law.

 

[Dkh587]

Context is crucial which is why I posted the previous verses where Paul's context is clearly pointing to those who would subjugate others to the law.

You posted and explained his verses out of context - Paul and the Colossians and all of the assemblies that he was over obeyed the law.

 

[Soyeong]

The text explains itself. He says he is dead to the law and alive in Christ.

Repeating the text does not alleviate the glaring error in how you've interpreted it. Please explain how it would make sense to interpret this as us needing to die to God's instructions for how to do what is righteous in order to be free to follow His instructions for how to do what is righteous. Paul spoke about multiple different types of laws, such as God's Law and the law of sin, so we need to determine which law he was speaking about us dying to, and it would make much more sense to interpret Paul as saying that we need to die to the law was was hindering us from living for God, not the Law that instructs us how to live for God.

He is saying if you try to earn righteousness or right standing by the law you do away with the finished work of the cross.

Indeed, the Law was never given for the purpose of providing the means of becoming righteous, and that has always been a perversion of the Law and fundamental misunderstanding of it and of God's character. It makes God out to be primarily interested in our outward performance rather than in growing in an inward relationship with us. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10, the reason why Israel failed to obtain righteousness was because they had this misunderstanding of the purpose of the Law. They had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God comes only through faith in Messiah, so they pursued the Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by faith, for the goal of the Law is a relationship with Messiah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to our faith saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us to obey, but that His word is near us, in our hearts and in our mouth so that we can obey it, and this is what it means to confess and to submit to Messiah as Lord.

Galatians 3 he continues

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Law = schoolmaster. It's purpose is to bring us unto Jesus.

After Faith has come, there is no longer a schoolmaster This means the law is done.

Having no more need for a tutor is not at all the same thing as having no more need for what they taught you. Disregarding everything a tutor taught you after they left would completely miss the whole point. When a student graduates to 2nd grade, they are not required to forget everything they were taught in 1st grade, but rather their new teacher builds upon what they were taught. Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in accordance with His example. In John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, in Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scripture concerning himself, in Hebrews 10:7, it says that the volume of the scroll is written about Jesus, and in Romans 10:4, that the goal of the Law is a relationship with Christ for everyone who has faith, so the Law brings us to Jesus because it is all about him and how to have a relationship with him. Jesus did not go around with the message that we are free to transgress the Law now that he has come, but that we need to repent of our transgressions of the Law.

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

He says if you try and go back under the law you have actually fallen from grace.

If you have such a low opinion of God's Law that you consider it to be bondage, then how does that not reflect rather negatively on your opinion of the Lawgiver? God said that what He commanded was for His follower's own good (Deuteronomy 10:12-13), so do you think that God can't be trust to give good laws? That he freed them out of bondage in Egypt to put them back under bondage to His Law? You just quoted a verse that says that it is for freedom that God sets us free and God's Law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45), while it is sin in transgression of God's Law that puts us in bondage.

A group of Jews were teaching that Gentiles needed to become circumcised in order to become saved, meaning that they had to become Jewish proselytes and agree to live as Jews according to all of their works of law in order to become saved. However, God's Law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and while it did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even they were required to do so in order to become saved, so if God did not require that, then they were therefore rejecting a man-made required as part of their works of law, and you should not take something that was only against a man-made requirement as being against obeying the God that we serve. So by putting their faith in man-made laws rather than in Christ they were falling from grace. According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law and according to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, so being trained by God to follow His instructions is not falling from grace, but rather it is what it means to be under grace.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

You posted and explained his verses out of context - Paul and the Colossians and all of the assemblies that he was over obeyed the law.

I think you missed my post.

Here is the context...again

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

There is zip about obeying the Mosaic Law in there. Actually his reference to the circumcision is telling us that it is a spiritual one, not a flesh one, the law is flesh man.

Galatians 2
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Galatians 3

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith not law

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Before faith came - we were kept under the law. If you have no faith you go back to the law....look at verse 24 carefully. Law to bring us the Jesus! We are justified by faith not works of the law. After faith came WE ARE NO LONGER under the schoolmaster (the law). This is very simple doctrine and really basic.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Repeating the text does not alleviate the glaring error in how you've interpreted it. Please explain how it would make sense to interpret this as us needing to die to God's instructions for how to do what is righteous in order to be free to follow His instructions for how to do what is righteous. Paul spoke about multiple different types of laws, such as God's Law and the law of sin, so we need to determine which law he was speaking about us dying to, and it would make much more sense to interpret Paul as saying that we need to die to the law was was hindering us from living for God, not the Law that instructs us how to live for God.

How do I explain spiritual things to those who refuse to listen? The spirit of the Law dwells in the believer not the letter. You say I am in error but you are in bondage because you miss the cross entirely. Good luck with trying to do the law. I will trust Jesus and his finished work.

I keep repeating myself in hopes the Holy Spirit will open your eyes. Trust me it is not for my benefit.

2 Corinthians 3
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

I am calm lol. You can read the post just above this one on Colossians where clearly the scripture supports my position.

If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as to whether Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy day or for not keeping them, but if we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and well as keep in mind the broader theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear:

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those teaching people to obey the holy, righteous, and good Law of our God in accordance with Christ's example as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands, they were being judged by those teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man keep them from obeying God.

The purpose of the Law was simply to point to a savior.

That is one of the many purposes of the Law, but the primary purpose is to teach us how to walk in God's ways. Pointing out our sin has significance only insofar as it leads us to repent and back to obedience. Furthermore, it doesn't make any sense to say that that the law was given to reveal our sin and our need for a Savior, so now that he has come, we can go back to doing what the Law revealed to be sin. Jesus gave himself to free us from sin, not to make it so that we could be free to sin.

You can NOT follow the law and if you think you can you are deceived.

According to Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not to difficult, but that His Word is near us, in our hear and in our mouth so that we can obey it and Romans 10:5-8 quotes this passage in regard to what our faith says, so say that we can't follow the Law is to call God a liar and to deny what our faith says.

So which of the 613 laws do you follow? Are you following sacrifices? What kind of clothes do you wear? You wear a tzittzit everyday? You bringing barely to the priests? Where are the priests? Do you not touch a woman when she is on her cycle? How would you know, do you ask every woman around you to give you her cycle schedule? Do you go and give a half sheckle to the temple every year? What temple?

Even when the Law was first given, there was not a single person who was required to obey all 613 laws and not even Jesus was able to do that because he could not obey the laws in regard to a woman's period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, people living in the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. In fact a good portion of the laws were only intended to be obeyed by the Levites. Furthermore, many laws also have conditions under which they apply, such as the Sabbath that only applies when it is the 7th day. There is no sense in criticizing someone for not keeping the Sabbath on a Tuesday just as there is no sense in criticizing someone for not keeping the laws in regard to temple practice when there is no temple in which to practice them. We can only be held accountable for keeping the laws that are possible for us to keep. When Israel was in exile in Babylon the condition for their return was to turn back to obedience to God's Law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have while they were in exile, so counted them being faithful to do what they could do as full obedience.

 

[Dkh587]

I think you missed my post.

Here is the context...again

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

There is zip about obeying the Mosaic Law in there. Actually his reference to the circumcision is telling us that it is a spiritual one, not a flesh one, the law is flesh man.

Galatians 2
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Galatians 3

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith not law

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Before faith came - we were kept under the law. If you have no faith you go back to the law....look at verse 24 carefully. Law to bring us the Jesus! We are justified by faith not works of the law. After faith came WE ARE NO LONGER under the schoolmaster (the law). This is very simple doctrine and really basic.

I didn't miss your post. I saw it.

i never said anything about justification through the law. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying just like you're misunderstanding Paul's letters and teaching them out of context.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

group of Jews were teaching that Gentiles needed to become circumcised in order to become saved,

Dude by doing that they were putting them back under the law, that was their intention not just circumcision and then your good.....

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I didn't miss your post. I saw it.

i never said anything about justification through the law. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying just like you're misunderstanding Paul's letters and teaching them out of context.

That is your opinion and you are free to think that.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

ense in criticizing someone for not keeping the laws in regard to temple practice when there is no temple in which to practice them

We are the temple. There is no physical temple so all those laws are negated.

 

[Soyeong]

How do I explain spiritual things to those who refuse to listen?

A discussion is not where you dictate and I am not listening to you if I don't accept everything you say. I have listened to what you've said and I've give reasons for why I do not think your position is correct and reasons for why I think my position is correct, and this how a fruitful discussion should go. You brought up Colossians 2:16 as saying that we should not let anyone judge us for not keeping the Sabbath. However, I made the point the people judging them were not teaching people to keep the Sabbath, but we teaching all sorts of human traditions and precepts, so the correct way to interpret Paul is that the Colossians were not to let anyone judge them for keeping the Sabbath. I am still waiting for you to interact with this point.

The spirit of the Law dwells in the believer not the letter. You say I am in error but you are in bondage because you miss the cross entirely. Good luck with trying to do the law. I will trust Jesus and his finished work.

Then you should trust in his finished work instead of doing the opposite. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, yet you are speaking against obeying God's instructions for how to do that. In verse 14, it says that Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, but you have returned to the Lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem you from and are speaking against following God's instructions for equipping us to do every good work, and have thus missed the cross. According to Romans 8:4-7, it is the carnal mind that refuses to submit to God's Law in contrast with those who are walking in the Spirit.

I keep repeating myself

When you make a glaring error in how you are interpreting Scripture, that error doesn't go away just because you keep repeating. I'm not looking for you to repeat your position, but rather I'm looking for you to interact with my reasons for why your position is wrong.

2 Corinthians 3
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Indeed, the Mosaic Covenant is all about Christ and how to have relationship with him, and in fact, it was a marriage to him, but people have no seen this because of the veil over their eyes.

 

[Soyeong]

Dude by doing that they were putting them back under the law, that was their intention not just circumcision and then your good.....

Are your eyes really so veiled that you can not see how absurd it is to interpret Paul as speaking against obeying the God that we serve? And you would then give Paul more authority than God as to obey what you think Paul said instead of what God said? Paul never spoke against obeying God, but rather he only spoke against requiring Gentiles to become circumcised and obey man-made traditions in order to become saved. The one and only way there there has ever been to become justified is by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith were are therefore required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. Living by faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's commands, such as with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, while disobedience to God's commands is associated with breaking faith. Likewise, grace is always associated with being trained to obey God's commands.

The position that Christ came to free us from the Law is inconsistent with the position that the Law was only given to Jews and not to Gentiles because Christ would not have needed to give himself to free Gentiles from a Law that they were never under in the first place. However, the Bible does not say that Christ came to free us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, and by grace we are all under God's Law, otherwise God would have no just grounds by which to judge anyone.

We are the temple. There is no physical temple so all those laws are negated. Geez your cherry picking what you want.

Please explain to me how it is cherry picking to say that we should only obey the laws that are possible for us to obey.

 

[Monk Brendan]

van worship

Please explain that one phrase.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The word Saturday is from Saturns day...pagan. The Russian word is Subota...from Sabbath.

But the Russian word for, "Sunday," is Resurrection.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But the Russian word for, "Sunday," is Resurrection.

Absolutely!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Shabbat Shalom!

 

[bugkiller]

The Colossians were Sabbath keepers - Paul wasn't writing to people who didn't keep the Sabbath, but rather he was writing to people who were keeping the Sabbath, while encouraging them to not let anybody(pagans/those outside the body of Messiah) judge them for how they kept the Sabbath, except for those *in* the body of Messiah.

Paul wasn't writing to people who went to church on Sundays and ignored the Sabbath. Context is crucial, especially with Paul's letters.

What evidence do you have the Colossians were sabbath keepers?

bugkiller