The Sabbath Day: Saturday or Sunday?

[bugkiller]

Maybe according to men, but not according to God

Only the 7th day, and the 7 holy days of God are... holy/set-apart.

We are commanded by Messiah to be holy every day, but that doesn't mean every day is holy. God defines what days are set-apart. He only listed 8 days: the Sabbath and the Holy days of Leviticus 23

Only for Israel.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You posted and explained his verses out of context - Paul and the Colossians and all of the assemblies that he was over obeyed the law.

That would make Paul nothing more than a double minded idiot in light of his other letters. IOW Paul isn't reliable nor a spokesman for God. That males Acts also false. Paul doesn't promote the law anywhere.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Repeating the text does not alleviate the glaring error in how you've interpreted it. Please explain how it would make sense to interpret this as us needing to die to God's instructions for how to do what is righteous in order to be free to follow His instructions for how to do what is righteous. Paul spoke about multiple different types of laws, such as God's Law and the law of sin, so we need to determine which law he was speaking about us dying to, and it would make much more sense to interpret Paul as saying that we need to die to the law was was hindering us from living for God, not the Law that instructs us how to live for God.



Indeed, the Law was never given for the purpose of providing the means of becoming righteous, and that has always been a perversion of the Law and fundamental misunderstanding of it and of God's character. It makes God out to be primarily interested in our outward performance rather than in growing in an inward relationship with us. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10, the reason why Israel failed to obtain righteousness was because they had this misunderstanding of the purpose of the Law. They had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God comes only through faith in Messiah, so they pursued the Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by faith, for the goal of the Law is a relationship with Messiah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to our faith saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us to obey, but that His word is near us, in our hearts and in our mouth so that we can obey it, and this is what it means to confess and to submit to Messiah as Lord.

If disobedience to the law is sin (makes one unrighteous), why doesn't obedience to the law make one righteous? You can't keep/practice the law and sin.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as to whether Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy day or for not keeping them, but if we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and well as keep in mind the broader theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear:

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those teaching people to obey the holy, righteous, and good Law of our God in accordance with Christ's example as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in the chapter:

Obviously Galatians is being ignored.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I didn't miss your post. I saw it.

i never said anything about justification through the law. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying just like you're misunderstanding Paul's letters and teaching them out of context.

Where is your support for this?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

A discussion is not where you dictate and I am not listening to you if I don't accept everything you say. I have listened to what you've said and I've give reasons for why I do not think your position is correct and reasons for why I think my position is correct, and this how a fruitful discussion should go. You brought up Colossians 2:16 as saying that we should not let anyone judge us for not keeping the Sabbath. However, I made the point the people judging them were not teaching people to keep the Sabbath, but we teaching all sorts of human traditions and precepts, so the correct way to interpret Paul is that the Colossians were not to let anyone judge them for keeping the Sabbath. I am still waiting for you to interact with this point.

When it comes to how one keeps the sabbath, doesn't it include all the activity of the day? Thus if one does something the law doesn't allow on the sabbath are they to be judged for it? Your answer has to be no because of your discussion above.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

A discussion is not where you dictate and I am not listening to you if I don't accept everything you say. I have listened to what you've said and I've give reasons for why I do not think your position is correct and reasons for why I think my position is correct, and this how a fruitful discussion should go. You brought up Colossians 2:16 as saying that we should not let anyone judge us for not keeping the Sabbath. However, I made the point the people judging them were not teaching people to keep the Sabbath, but we teaching all sorts of human traditions and precepts, so the correct way to interpret Paul is that the Colossians were not to let anyone judge them for keeping the Sabbath. I am still waiting for you to interact with this point.



Then you should trust in his finished work instead of doing the opposite. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, yet you are speaking against obeying God's instructions for how to do that. In verse 14, it says that Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, but you have returned to the Lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem you from and are speaking against following God's instructions for equipping us to do every good work, and have thus missed the cross. According to Romans 8:4-7, it is the carnal mind that refuses to submit to God's Law in contrast with those who are walking in the Spirit.




When you make a glaring error in how you are interpreting Scripture, that error doesn't go away just because you keep repeating. I'm not looking for you to repeat your position, but rather I'm looking for you to interact with my reasons for why your position is wrong.



Indeed, the Mosaic Covenant is all about Christ and how to have relationship with him, and in fact, it was a marriage to him, but people have no seen this because of the veil over their eyes.

The Mosaic law has nothing to do with a relationship with Jesus.

 

[bugkiller]

Are your eyes really so veiled that you can not see how absurd it is to interpret Paul as speaking against obeying the God that we serve?

Are your eyes so veiled that you can't and accept: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Galatians
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Right on! If one is dead to something there's no relationship with the dead thing.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

How do you get that from that verse? The pagans were judging Christians for not doing what they do. How does that show it has been abolished?

Paul wasn't talking about pagans.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Nobody is saying that so not sure why you are bringing it up? Salvation is only through Yeshua. We are freed from the CURSE of the Law...we have a way for salvation now through Yeshua.

What is the curse of the law? Isn't it death because of disobedience? Even the OT says no one keeps the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Holy is set apart for a specific purpose, so in order for something to be holy, there needs to be something that it is set apart from. If everything is holy, then nothing is holy.

Then the sabbath has no special meaning to Israel by the same argument. If the whole world keeps the sabbath it can't be a sign to Israel. Ex 31:13, 17

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Haven't read the whole thread. But all I can say is the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week and Sunday is the first day of the week . The majority of western languages acknowledge this, both the Latin romance languages as well as the Greek and Slavic languages.

For whatever reason the english world retained pagan names for the days of the week. Thus Saturday is the day of Saturn, Sunday of the Sun, Thursday for Thor etc.
Outside of the english speaking world this topic would be considered infantile. The SDA really make a fool out of themselves, thats why they have no traction outside of America and Africa.

They and the RC have plenty traction in the Philippines.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Monergism Search Results 145 Results The Puritans wrote on the subject at length. The Puritans matter a great deal to me, but I must confess personal apathy on this particular subject, I think a Sabbath matters more than whatever day of the week, society in general in the west in modern times has little if any respect for Christian traditions such as Sabbath observance. Personally, this is never more clear than in the workplace, in the particular area I live (ironically the "Bible Belt") it is extremely difficult to find an employer that will even consider hiring, if one is not willing to work weekends. I believe the Lord of the Sabbath would have us to work on Saturday and or Sunday, as opposed to starving to death, not being able to pay bills, etc. So I would put an emphasis on a day of rest, whatever day that happens to fall on, per employer scheduling. In times past, especially before planes, trains, and automobiles, people were by far more restricted, and especially in Christian communities or where the majority were Christians, people could put financial pressure on business owners, even if they did not agree, to observe the Sabbath. Today it is incredibly difficult to even observe the Sabbath one day of the week, at least in the old ancient sense of observing it.

Maybe if sabbatarians would stay out of the retail market place or the zoo they wouldn't need people to work on Saturday.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

When Jesus came, He made the 10 Commandments all about what goes on in the heart.
For example,
No idols or graven images is now to not set them up in your heart.
No adultery is now don't even look at a woman to lust after her.
No killing is now don't hate.
And the Sabbath is now a matter of the heart as well, not about a certain day.
Do you honestly believe that God is concerned with outward obedience?
I would bet today's 7th day Sabbath advocates would say the Pharisees kept the Sabbath.
They may have outwardly, but not the way God intended.

Hello Doug.

Excellent post, we are not under the law but under grace.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Maybe if sabbatarians would stay out of the retail market place or the zoo they wouldn't need people to work on Saturday.

bugkiller

Good point, and let's not forget the Golden Corral and gas stations!

 

[BobRyan]

I am trying to do some research on what day the Sabbath was originally honored and when did it change if it changed and does it matter?

The Catholic Catechism says it was Saturday
The Baptist Confession of Faith says it was Saturday
The Westminster Confession of Faith says it was Saturday
R.C. Sproul says it was Saturday
D.L. Moody says it was Saturday

All Sabbath keeping Christian groups say it was Saturday.
The Orthodox Jews say it was Saturday.

Those Christian churches that attend Sunday Services -- because they want to remember Christ's resurrection on week-day-1 -- are admitting that the 7th day is Saturday.

Exodus 16 - for 40 years manna fell Sunday-through-Friday but on Saturday - no Manna.

This is not the part that is most seriously debated among scholars.

The real debate is over the issue of "editing" the Sabbath to re-point the Commandment so that its binding obligation is no longer pointed at the 7th day but rather now at the first day of the week.

The other form of debate is the one that argues that there is no 4th commandment any more - just nine no longer TEN. And that a habit or tradition of week-day-1 is all that remains

 

[BobRyan]

I really want to agree with you on this because I am totally against religious doctrines that get people bogged down with religious doctrines that will profit nothing except to create more bondage.

What is your view of Christ's teaching? good? ...or bad? in your view?

How about His Words in Mark 7:6-13??

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[BobRyan]

People who focus on it being a certain day, miss the true meaning of Sabbath. Those are resting in Christ are the ones who are actually keeping the Sabbath.

Imagine the teaching "those who take God's name in vain - those are the ones really resting in Christ" -- we would all see through that one -- instantly.

1 John 5:2 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Exodus 16 - for 6 days of the week manna fell. but on THE 7th day.. no manna... for 40 years.

 

[Doug Melven]

magine the teaching "those who take God's name in vain - those are the ones really resting in Christ" -- we would all see through that one -- instantly.

Do you know what it means to take His name in vain?
The Jews did it because they didn't understand.
Do you understand?