The Sabbath commandment directly refutes Evolution's teaching on origins

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Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 which speaks to the making of Both the Sabbath and mankind-- just as we see in Genesis 1 - Genesis 2:3

He then says "The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

Neither of those statements say "stop keeping the seventh as you find it in scripture". Rather they appear to be two excellent reasons to keep it.

The Sabbath was made for humanity speaks of the benefit the law has for humanity. Whether Jesus healed on that day, or his disciples ate grain on that day, it was good because it was for the good of people. I see you are really more interested in the letter of the law than its function for the good of humans. What's the purpose of the law?

If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, then we can't go wrong worshiping our Lord on the day he rose again. This is why some early Christians referred to it as the eighth day, the day of the new creation. Instead of thinking about it in terms of abrogating the Sabbath day, it looks more like fulfillment, to me.
 
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So you seem to be saying it is not in the Bible but might be in the Didache? An anonymous document from ?? century?

Didache - Wikipedia

http://www.historicism.org/Documents/Didache.pdf

The Didache is mentioned by Eusebius (c. 324) as the Teachings of the Apostles following the books recognized as canonical:[21]

"Let there be placed among the spurious works the Acts of Paul, the so-called Shepherd and the Apocalypse of Peter, and besides these the Epistle of Barnabas, and what are called the Teachings of the Apostles, (Didache) and also the Apocalypse of John, if this be thought proper; for as I wrote before, some reject it, and others place it in the canon."​


"Many scholars have dated the text to the late 2nd century CE, a view still held today, other scholars have the Didache might go back to the first century. The document is a composite work, and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls with its Manual of Discipline provided evidence of development over a considerable period of time, beginning as a Jewish catechetical work which was then developed into a church manual. Additionally, apart from two minuscule fragments, the Greek text of the Didache has only survived in a single manuscript, the Codex Hierosolymitanus. Dating the document is thus made difficult both by the lack of hard evidence and its composite character. The Didache may have been compiled in its present form as late as 150,

=====================
Some have supposed that the Didache uses the term " Lord’s Day " or week-day-1… – but in fact – it does not.

The Greek expression in verse 14.1 in the Didache, is:

Κατὰ κυριακὴν δε κυριου​

The Greek term κυριακὴν is often transliterated as kuriaki/kyriake.

the Greek term for "day" (ἡμέρᾳ) is missing in verse 14.1 and is not required by the context so it cannot simply be "inserted"
=====================

In any case - regardless of anonymous works like Didache (considered spurious in the 4th century according to Eusebius) the point of this thread is the text of Genesis and Exodus and how it differs with the doctrine on origins that we find in the Bible

I said probably Didache, definitely by Justin Martyr. Keep reading the wiki article on the Lord's Day.

Also, "spurious" in this case simply means it wasn't considered scripture, but it was definitely recognized as a Christian writing. If we're trying to determine when folks started to recognize Sunday, it is sufficient.
 
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You are skipping too many details in thread at this point.

The reason the Sabbath law is mentioned is that the "kind of text it is" makes it impossible to spin into poetic symbol or allegory. It is legal code which is always literal in the Bible. That is the reason for the reference. This thread is not about telling someone to keep God's commandments. I do that on other threads but that is not the purpose of this one.
Kind of, but "legal code" in the Biblical text isn't statutory as modern legal codes are, so they aren't meant to be read as strict dictates. The law was law within narrative and is ultimately a derived law that can be summarized in the 2 great commandments. The 10 commandments can then be divided between loving God and loving neighbor, with the 4th and 5th bridging the two. The law was not meant to be followed by the letter, but instead to be meditated on and obeyed from the heart. What separates a lot who deny modern Sabbatarianism is not about what the law says, but the proper relationship to the law.

It is irrefutable that the Jews were keeping a 7 day week and that the Sabbath was always a day of rest and worship for them. That is just historic fact. And it is a problem if one is trying to get the link of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-3 to both be somehow speaking of allegory and not a literal day since obviously the newly freed slaves at Sinai had no motivation to engage in that sort of spin doctoring.

We are talking about the literature itself.

Deuteronomy is a text written 40 years later and is referencing back to the Exodus 20 text, not chiseling new stone. And there is no record in history or among the Jews that they stopped keeping the 7 day week setup in Ex 16 and Exodus 20 once they get to the Deut 5 point some 40 years later.
Deuteronomy is the renewal of the covenant, composed not only of what the law says but how to interpret it. Yes, Israel held to a religious calendar including a weekly Sabbath but as Paul says the Sabbaths were a shadow of the substance found in Christ.
 
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Okay, that make sense. Then the point is to set aside a day of remembering the works of the Lord. I don't think the need for rest is outside the import of the day, but your point is the legal aspect. Or, it is a formal legalism, which I take to mean keeping the "letter" of the law. Which, of course, gives no importance to the purpose, and I would say that's a mistake. That is why Jesus said it was made for us, not us for the Sabbath.
Yes, that's exactly right. The function of the law was not a matter of strict obedience without putting thought into it, but a matter of seeing the relationship of God's character and the law. The 10 commandments can be derived from the 2 great commandments roughly being split in half. The first 3 deal with man's relationship to God, the 4th and 5th are about both man's relationship to God and man's relationship to man as both were about keeping the glory of the covenant close at hand, and the last 5 deal with love of neighbor. From these few laws, the whole of the law springs forth and the legal material serves as a commentary to be understood rather than statutory injunctions. Paul said the failure of the Jews was that they did not mix the law with faith, and that can be seen because they took it as a series of do's and don't's rather than seeing the God that stands behind them who is both just and merciful. Ultimately, the law is how the Israelite had a relationship with the invisible God but we have a much better way in Christ. As Paul said, the Sabbaths were the shadow and in Christ is the substance.
 
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Kind of, but "legal code" in the Biblical text isn't statutory as modern legal codes are, so they aren't meant to be read as strict dictates.

The "legal code" in this case -- in Ex 20 is one of the Ten Commandments which are most certainly declared to be "strict dictates". My point is that "the kind of literature that it is " places this squarely in the genre of literal imperative at the highest form of legal code known to Israel. So really hard to spin it as "well... not really" and in a prior chapter (chapter 16) they were told to stone someone to death that failed to follow the instruction to the letter.

The law was law within narrative and is ultimately a derived law that can be summarized in the 2 great commandments.
The fact that this part of the legal code is founded on the principle to "Love God with all the heart" Deut 6:5 (Also in Matt 22) does nothing to detract from the point above about the kind of literature that it is.
The 10 commandments can then be divided between loving God and loving neighbor,
True.

The first 4 deal with love for God.
The last 6 deal with love to other humans.

So again .. the reason for the reference to Ex 20:8-11 is that vs 11 includes the 7 day fact links directly to the 7 day fact in Gen 2:1-3
Which is a problem if one is trying to squeeze some form of Darwinism into it.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, Israel held to a religious calendar including a weekly Sabbath but as Paul says the Sabbaths were a shadow of the substance found in Christ.
And Paul continued to preach the Gospel on "Every Sabbath" to both Jews and gentiles Acts 18:4 -- even the believing ones since it is "every Sabbath". But that is not the point for this thread. The point here is the link between Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-3 where the legal code context does not allow for inserting Darwinism into the text.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, that's exactly right. The function of the law was not a matter of strict obedience without putting thought into it
It is true that "Do not take God's name in vain" was not intended in the form "put no thought into this when you obey it". And this can be said of all of scripture.
 
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The "legal code" in this case -- in Ex 20 is one of the Ten Commandments which are most certainly declared to be "strict dictates". My point is that "the kind of literature that it is " places this squarely in the genre of literal imperative at the highest form of legal code known to Israel. So really hard to spin it as "well... not really" and in a prior chapter (chapter 16) they were told to stone someone to death that failed to follow the instruction to the letter.
Then you don't understand the genre, because the genre is narrative not modern statutory laws. The nature of the law is to be interpreted and diligently applied, not by technical disputes about the letter but by understanding what it means to be a member of the covenant community.
The fact that this part of the legal code is founded on the principle to "Love God with all the heart" Deut 6:5 (Also in Matt 22) does nothing to detract from the point above about the kind of literature that it is.
Which you seem to be mistaken about.
True.

The first 4 deal with love for God.
The last 6 deal with love to other humans.
The 4th commandment is as much about love for other humans as it is for God, which is conveyed expressly in Deuteronomy where it is a way of remembering and having empathy for resident aliens.
So again .. the reason for the reference to Ex 20:8-11 is that vs 11 includes the 7 day fact links directly to the 7 day fact in Gen 2:1-3
Which is a problem if one is trying to squeeze some form of Darwinism into it.
The primary point in the rememberance is not the technical manner in which God made creation, but in remembering God as Creator of all. Both historic indications from the Jewish sages, the way the Hebrew is composed in Gen 1-11, as well as early Christian scholarship on the matter indicates that it was not understood as a strictly technical description but was a sort of mythical history with the central point being that God is creator of all rather than a local tribal god like the other Canaanite gods.
 
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BobRyan

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The Sabbath was made for humanity speaks of the benefit the law has for humanity. Whether Jesus healed on that day, or his disciples ate grain on that day, it was good because it was for the good of people. I see you are really more interested in the letter of the law
I am interested in "The kind of literature that it is"... Showing that in legal code - they don't use allegory or poetry or vague symbolism. It is literal which means that the link between the legal code of Ex 20:11 and its very specific 7 day detail shown in that very commandment to pertain to the literal 7 day week they were observing (and being subjected to the death sentence in Ex 16 for failure to comply with the exact requirement) - makes it impossible to "insert darwinism into the text".

If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, then we can't go wrong worshiping our Lord on the day he rose again.
It God says "I want you to do - A" and you respond with "I think doing B honors you more - so I choose to do B instead of A" what exactly are you telling God in that case.

notice that in the case of Cain and Able they both offer valid sacrifices but only one qualified as a 'sin offering'. The other would be valid as a thank offering but it was not a sin offering.
 
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BobRyan

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Which you seem to be mistaken about.

The 4th commandment is as much about love for other humans as it is for God,

The 4th commandment does not say "The seventh day is the Sabbath of other humans" ... rather "the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) thy God". Ex 20.

In Ex 16 it is not God being killed for violating the exact specification of that command - it is another human.

So this is legal code and not open to parable, or some sort of insert of Darwinism. The details were deadly serious for the group that heard them.

The primary point in the rememberance is not the technical manner in which God made creation, but in remembering God as Creator of all.
IT is the very detail of God creating in 7 days that is included -- the very detail you seem to claim -- should have been left out ??

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, six days you shall labor...
"the seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH thy God"
"11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Sanctified it)

Vs 11 appears to have all the elements you claim it should not have. Yet this is God actually speaking directly to Israel.
 
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BobRyan

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Both historic indications from the Jewish sages, the way the Hebrew is composed in Gen 1-11, as well as early Christian scholarship on the matter indicates that it was not understood as a strictly technical description but was a sort of mythical history with the central point being that God is creator of all rather than a local tribal god like the other Canaanite gods.
Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience

(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story

(c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.

Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

Your post illustrates the flaw in the argument very well .. you reduce it to the following "detail" -- "the central point being that God is creator of all"

So a text that simply said
"God created everything -- have a nice day" would have suited your suggestion a lot better.​

Or at most
"remember God created everything in some way - now sacrifice a lamb now and then or at least offer a grain offering at some interval of your choice to remind yourself that God created evertything in some way"​


But as it is "The details" keep getting in the way of that suggestion.

The text points to the 7 day detail in Gen 2 - then takes that detail and makes it the heart and soul of the observance in Ex 20 such that every 7th day on that very day - they would have to rest... and in fact would have to starve that very day if they forgot about it since no manna fell on that day. What was worse of course was getting stoned to death in Ex 16 for "overlooking that detail".

The details keep getting in the way of the point you are suggesting since these are the very details you claim they most certainly would have ignored.

And they are the very details that make it impossible to smuggle darwinism into the text.
 
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The 4th commandment does not say "The seventh day is the Sabbath of other humans" ... rather "the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) thy God". Ex 20.

In Ex 16 it is not God being killed for violating the exact specification of that command - it is another human.

So this is legal code and not open to parable, or some sort of insert of Darwinism. The details were deadly serious for the group that heard them.
No one mentioned anything of parable, but you're thinking of legal codes in a very Roman mode. Ancient Hebrews view of law was not a matter of technical application, but one of revealing and applying principles. It wasn't until the 2nd temple period that a technical sense of the law came into vogue, and that as a way to curb Jewish revolts that were decimating the populace.
IT is the very detail of God creating in 7 days that is included -- the very detail you seem to claim -- should have been left out ??

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, six days you shall labor...
"the seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH thy God"
"11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Sanctified it)
Yes, its being built on a Jewish creation myth but that verse alone does not give the full specification for the Sabbath.
Vs 11 appears to have all the elements you claim it should not have. Yet this is God actually speaking directly to Israel.
Hardly.
Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:



Your post illustrates the flaw in the argument very well .. you reduce it to the following "detail" -- "the central point being that God is creator of all"

So a text that simply said
"God created everything -- have a nice day" would have suited your suggestion a lot better.​

Or at most
"remember God created everything in some way - now sacrifice a lamb now and then or at least offer a grain offering at some interval of your choice to remind yourself that God created evertything in some way"​


But as it is "The details" keep getting in the way of that suggestion.

The text points to the 7 day detail in Gen 2 - then takes that detail and makes it the heart and soul of the observance in Ex 20 such that every 7th day on that very day - they would have to rest... and in fact would have to starve that very day if they forgot about it since no manna fell on that day. What was worse of course was getting stoned to death in Ex 16 for "overlooking that detail".

The details keep getting in the way of the point you are suggesting since these are the very details you claim they most certainly would have ignored.

And they are the very details that make it impossible to smuggle darwinism into the text.
Just curious, where did he say this?

And even if it is a genuine quote, it doesn't address what I have stated since it seems to be addressing inserting epochs in place of the days or some other modifications to try to make it a technical story. What I'm speaking to is the distinction of how ancient people thought of history in general, because they didn't conceive of it in the technical scientific way we now conceive of it. Understanding Genesis and what it is about requires understanding the creation myths of the day and comparing them, because it is not in competition with Darwinistic evolution or any other scientific theory of history.

The account certainly meant to convey the details as written, but that doesn't make it a technical history. Genesis 1-11 is far less descriptive than what follows and is distinct in a number of ways that indicate that its importance, that is to say the point of the material, is not to convey a literal history but to distinguish God from the gods of Canaan and Egypt.

The strict literal technical historical view of Genesis is more a reactionary knee-jerk to Darwinian evolution than a historical view of the material, in either Jewish history or Christian history.
 
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BobRyan

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No one mentioned anything of parable, but you're thinking of legal codes in a very Roman mode. Ancient Hebrews view of law was not a matter of technical application, but one of revealing and applying principles. It wasn't until the 2nd temple period that a technical sense of the law came into vogue,
In Ex 20 we see "the technical detail" of "The seventh day" and in Ex 16 it is sooo specific that they would not have food on the 7th day unless they paid strict attention to gathering twice as much manna on the 6th day --- since none would fall on the 7th. This is irrefutable - and in the text from almost 4000 years ago as opposed to "2nd temple".

In Ex 16 the "technical detail" of no fires built on "the 7th day" that one who goes out on "the 7th day" to gather sticks had to be killed. Here again "the detail" is the focus.
Just curious, where did he say this?

And even if it is a genuine quote, it doesn't address what I have stated since it seems to be addressing inserting epochs in place of the days
the text does not work when inserting epochs for days since it would mean epochs with no food.
And in Gen 1 you would have Epochs of time after plants are created - until the Sun shows up. Does not work

Ex 16:
13 So it came about at evening that the quails came up and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 When the layer of dew evaporated, behold, on the surface of the wilderness there was a fine flake-like thing, fine as the frost on the ground. 15 When the sons of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, “It is the bread which the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Everyone gather as much as he will eat; you shall take an omer apiece according to the number of people each of you has in his tent.’” 17 The sons of Israel did so, and some gathered much and some little. 18 When they measured it by the omer, the one who had gathered much did not have too much, and the one who had gathered little did not have too little; everyone gathered as much as he would eat. 19 Moses said to them, “No one is to leave any of it until morning.” 20 But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and stank; and Moses was angry with them. 21 They gathered it morning by morning, everyone as much as he would eat; but when the sun became hot, it would melt.

The Sabbath​

22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, “This is what the Lord meant: Tomorrow is a Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.” 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not stink nor was there a maggot in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
 
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In Ex 20 we see "the technical detail" of "The seventh day" and in Ex 16 it is sooo specific that they would not have food on the 7th day unless they paid strict attention to gathering twice as much manna on the 6th day --- since none would fall on the 7th. This is irrefutable - and in the text from almost 4000 years ago as opposed to "2nd temple".

In Ex 16 the "technical detail" of no fires built on "the 7th day" that one who goes out on "the 7th day" to gather sticks had to be killed. Here again "the detail" is the focus.
No one is arguing the Sabbath is any day but the 7th day, the issue is one of closeness of relationship. The Israelites only had the law to have a relationship with God, we've got Jesus who is the substance of the law. But given Jesus' words on the Sabbath, such as "the sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath," adherence to it likely was always about the inclination of the heart and not strict rule-following.
the text does not work when inserting epochs for days since it would mean epochs with no food.
And in Gen 1 you would have Epochs of time after plants are created - until the Sun shows up. Does not work
I agree, inserting epochs orr any other modification to the text to try to harmonize is a mistake. But then so is treating it as if it is a scientific work.
 
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No one is arguing the Sabbath is any day but the 7th day, the issue is one of closeness of relationship. The Israelites only had the law to have a relationship with God, we've got Jesus who is the substance of the law. But given Jesus' words on the Sabbath, such as "the sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath," adherence to it likely was always about the inclination of the heart and not strict rule-following.

I agree, inserting epochs orr any other modification to the text to try to harmonize is a mistake. But then so is treating it as if it is a scientific work.
When was man made? Before or after the first Sabbath? Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments- love is what motivates us to keep God’s laws. 1 John 5:3 and by faith Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12. If one looks at obeying God’s rules of love as “strict rule keeping” perhaps they don’t understand the reason why God wrote His commandments. Paul said they are holy and good, Romans 7:12 and we are told His laws are perfect for converting the soul Psalm 19:7. God’s law reflects His character and we are made in His image to be like Him. God wants us out of the bondage of sin (breaking God’s law) Romans 6:16 and free to walk in Christ in obedience to Him, through His Spirit. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32
 
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When was man made? Before or after the first Sabbath? Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments- love is what motivates us to keep God’s laws. 1 John 5:3 and by faith Romans 3:31 Revelation 14:12. If one looks at obeying God’s rules of love as “strict rule keeping” perhaps they don’t understand the reason why God wrote His commandments. Paul said they are holy and good, Romans 7:12 and we are told His laws are perfect for converting the soul Psalm 19:7. God’s law reflects His character and we are made in His image to be like Him. God wants us out of the bondage of sin (breaking God’s law) Romans 6:16 and free to walk in Christ in obedience to Him, through His Spirit. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32
For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
 
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BobRyan

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For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
"what then - do we tear down the commandments of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31 where "the first commandment with a promise' in that set of laws is 'honor your father and mother' - Eph 6:2
 
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No one is arguing the Sabbath is any day but the 7th day, the issue is one of closeness of relationship. The Israelites only had the law to have a relationship with God, we've got Jesus who is the substance of the law.
Sounds like "two gospels".

  • Gal 1:6-9 there is only "ONE Gospel"
  • Gal 3:8 that ONE Gospel was "preached to Abraham"
  • Matt 7 - both Moses and Elijah STAND WITH CHRIST - in glory even before the cross happens
  • 1 Peter 1 says "The SPIRIT OF CHRIST in them" was preaching the gospel in the OT
  • Gal 3 says there was never a time when the LAW was some "other way" of salvation for mankind
 
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Leaf473

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Sounds like "two gospels".

  • Gal 1:6-9 there is only "ONE Gospel"
  • Gal 3:8 that ONE Gospel was "preached to Abraham"
  • Matt 7 - both Moses and Elijah STAND WITH CHRIST - in glory even before the cross happens
  • 1 Peter 1 says "The SPIRIT OF CHRIST in them" was preaching the gospel in the OT
  • Gal 3 says there was never a time when the LAW was some "other way" of salvation for mankind
I don't think the same words were used when communicating the gospel to Abraham as were used when communicating it in the New Testament.

Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1 Corinthians 15

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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