The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[sunlover1]

Paul wrote that those who promote sedition and heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you please share the passage(s)?
Thanks.

Those who recognize no authority in the Church
but the Scriptures are in error.

I'm sorry but this statement is confusing,
can you reword it in a way I might understand?

How can you acknowledge that God appointed leaders and teachers within His Church yet oppose them?

Who's doing this?

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul wrote that those who promote sedition and heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who recognize no authority in the Church but the Scriptures are in error. How can you acknowledge that God appointed leaders and teachers within His Church yet oppose them?

What does that have to do with wanting you to back up your claims with scripture?

You made the claim here with scripture before people, and questioned me and others if we denied the word of GOD you presented, so go prove yourself correct friend, find that particular event where Peter received those keys you claimed he did.

Don't get upset and start making little insinuations of some sort of insubordination out of me or anyone else here, we are not part of your institutionalized building to where you can try to threaten us with that sort of tripe.

 

[fhansen]

I am a SS and I do listen to logic as well as Scripture.
If you're referring to listening to the dogma of one of the "One True Church"es,
then no, that would not be logical.
Dogma, for any church, doesn't develop out of thin air. It's generally supported by reason, scripture, history, and tradition.

 

[Rick Otto]

Does the Word of God state that the keys are equivalent to those privileges, or are you reading that into the text?

Excellent question, brother. Let's have a look:
Matt16:19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt18:18: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
To determine who He is speaking to in Matt18:18, refer to Matt18:1 to see He is speaking to disciples, not Peter.
Thank you for asking.
This stuff means a lot to me.

 

[sunlover1]

Dogma, for any church, doesn't develop out of thin air. It's generally supported by reason, scripture, history, and tradition.

I agree fhansen.
But look at it from my pov.

many churches claiming to be the genuine article v. Scripture.

It's just the choice I went with...(Scripture)

Here's how I deal with it, I just agree
with Scripture and everything works out.

Scripture says there's one church
Scripture states who might or might not belong to it.
Scripture tells us what fruit will be displayed by those who belong to said church.
ETC.

I look at "the church" as a living organism that effects change in the world.
We, the church, are as Christ is, in this world.
Christ the Head speaks,
We the body manifest the actions.

(and sometimes we dont.. like here at GT sometimes when you see
people being kind of creepy to each other myself included)

ANYhow, that's how I understand it.
But if i remember correctly, you're RCC
and so we really have opposing views of many things.

Be blessed

 

[ARBITER01]

Excellent question, brother. Let's have a look:
Matt16:19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt18:18: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
To determine who He is speaking to in Matt18:18, refer to Matt18:1 to see He is speaking to disciples, not Peter.
Thank you for asking.
This stuff means a lot to me.

That is correct brother Rick. If he would have looked at the different occurrences of when Jesus was talking of these events, he should have noticed how Jesus used the wording in plural form.

 

[Rick Otto]

There'd be no need except for those who depend solely on scripture and oppose the teachings of those who don't-they won't listen to anything else.

That is, Anything else that disagrees with scripture, to be honest.
And it isn't that nothing else is listened to, it's just that nothing else compares, again... just to be honest.

 

[Rick Otto]

That is correct brother Rick. If he would have looked at the different occurrences of when Jesus was talking of these events, he should have noticed how Jesus used the wording in plural form.

Thanks for noticing, but I have to confess that I completely sympathize with him, not because I was raised RC, but because it is indeed true there is just one guy in charge... it feels like instinct to believe that,... we just disagree who it is.

 

[fhansen]

That is, Anything else that disagrees with scripture, to be honest.
And it isn't that nothing else is listened to, it's just that nothing else compares, again... just to be honest.

I understand, the problem comes when believers disagree over the meaning of scripture, itself.

 

[ivebeenshown]

go prove yourself correct friend, find that particular event where Peter received those keys you claimed he did.

Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Why do you keep asking me to show you where Jesus promised the keys to Peter when I've shown you over and over?

 

[ivebeenshown]

That is correct brother Rick. If he would have looked at the different occurrences of when Jesus was talking of these events, he should have noticed how Jesus used the wording in plural form.

In Matthew 18, Jesus gives the Apostles (plural) the power of 'binding and loosing.' I do not deny that.

However, in Matthew 16, Jesus speaks to Peter (singular) and promises him the keys. I do not see Jesus promising the keys to anyone else.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Excellent question, brother. Let's have a look:
Matt16:19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt18:18: Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
To determine who He is speaking to in Matt18:18, refer to Matt18:1 to see He is speaking to disciples, not Peter.
Thank you for asking.
This stuff means a lot to me.

It means a lot to me, as well.

In Matthew 18, Jesus speaks to his disciples (plural.) In Matthew 16, Jesus speaks to Peter (singular.)

I see Jesus promises the keys to Peter (singular) in Matthew 16, but I don't see Jesus promising the keys to anyone in Matthew 18.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Thanks for noticing, but I have to confess that I completely sympathize with him, not because I was raised RC, but because it is indeed true there is just one guy in charge... it feels like instinct to believe that,... we just disagree who it is.

Excuse me... but I don't believe that the Pope is 'the one guy in charge.'

 

[ivebeenshown]

Could you please share the passage(s)?
Thanks.

It's in the letter to the Galatians.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I'm sorry but this statement is confusing,
can you reword it in a way I might understand?

Those who practice Sola Scriptura say that the only rule we have to answer to is Scripture, but how can this be when Paul exhort us to obey the leaders that have the rule over us? (Heb 13:17)

Who's doing this?

I believe that you do not submit to the leaders that God appointed in His Church. Paul wrote that God appointed government within the Church (1 Cor. 12:28.)

 

[Rick Otto]

Excuse me... but I don't believe that the Pope is 'the one guy in charge.'

ok.

He gave the keys explaining their power. Then He gives the same powers to the other disciples. The keys were not literal, they were symbolic of the power He iterated, He gave the same powers to others.
I believe Peter is preeminate as an example both good & bad among apostles, but not preeiminate as an authority figure.

 

[ivebeenshown]

He gave the keys explaining their power. Then He gives the same powers to the other disciples.

Where does Scripture say that 'the keys of the kingdom of Heaven' are equivalent to 'binding and loosing', or that 'binding and loosing' is a privilege exclusive to 'the keys of the Kingdom of heaven'?

 

[Rick Otto]

Those who practice Sola Scriptura say that the only rule we have to answer to is Scripture, but how can this be when Paul exhort us to obey the leaders that have the rule over us? (Heb 13:17)

I believe that you do not submit to the leaders that God appointed in His Church. Paul wrote that God appointed government within the Church (1 Cor. 12:28.)

Sola Scriptura does not mean we answer only to scripture, Scripture says who to answer to. Sola Scriptura means scripture is the sole measure of spiritual truth. Anyone who holds truth in righteousness holds that truth authoritatively. We see that and Jesus rebuking the idea of apostolic preeminence in Luke 9:46-49.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Sola Scriptura does not mean we answer only to scripture, Scripture says who to answer to. Sola Scriptura means scripture is the sole measure of spiritual truth.

Alright.

Why don't you believe we can measure spiritual truths by consulting the teachers God appointed? Isaiah prophesied a promise from God, that our teachers would not be hidden from us, that we would see them with our eyes, and we would hear a voice telling us 'this is the Way, walk in it.' It is in the thirtieth chapter of the book of Isaiah.

I believe that we Christians are children of God and that God followed through on his promises.

Anyone who holds truth in righteousness holds that truth authoritatively. We see that and Jesus rebuking the idea of apostolic preeminence in Luke 9:46-49.

How can you say that our Lord does that when the Word of God says that we are to submit to our leaders because they give account of our soul?

The Apostles were leaders in their day, and they appointed others.

 

[Rick Otto]

Where does Scripture say that 'the keys of the kingdom of Heaven' are equivalent to 'binding and loosing', or that 'binding and loosing' is a privilege exclusive to 'the keys of the Kingdom of heaven'?

Jesus iterates the powers right after figuratively giving the figurative keys.
John3:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If being free means being in the kingdom, the gospel truths are the keys into it.

 

[razeontherock]

Dogma, for any church, doesn't develop out of thin air. It's generally supported by reason

MUST. RESIST. TOO. EASY.