The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[Rick Otto]

anyone can pontificate

but not with the claimed ecclesiastical authority of Pontiffs.

 

[fhansen]

but not with the claimed ecclesiastical authority of Pontiffs.

No, just with their own claimed authority.

 

[Rick Otto]

sweet

 

[sunlover1]

Anyone can be Pharisaical but none of that quote applies to anyone I deal with in the religious world.

Cool.. wish I could say that same thing..

The arguments have already been given-and it can be argued plausibly from each side ad infinitum,

What is "it"?
I merely offered the "rest of the story" about what Jesus said.

the point being that scripture was simply never intended to be our personal theological handbook, like it or not.

I'm no expert on God's intentions but Scripture, "FOR ME"...
is that and so much more.
Evidently not so for you.

 

[Rick Otto]

I suppose we were never meant to have a personal relationship with God either, just lots of mediators.

 

[Thekla]

That is exactly what a title represents - it's a "big deal" to have one indicating the other end of the deal (us) is small.
So Jesus said not to do it... big deal.
If I was hyper-literal, I wouldn't even call my dad "father".


The only people who don't think they have a direct "in" with God via scripture are hyper traditionalists.

Okay, but calling your dad "dad" or "father" describes a relationship.
Paul referring to himself as father describes a relationship (to his spiritual children, like Timothy). Referring to himself as apostle describes a relationship. The name "Paul" is more of a title than apostle or father.

I still don't understand why "father" is necessarily a title; in my experience, it isn't.

As for thinking about father or apostle as a title - if it is a problem, why did Paul use the terms ?

 

[ivebeenshown]

1. I can and DO understand your great concern over the reality that not a denomination on the planet agrees with yours on what is and is not Scripture. I felt the same way when I was Catholic, it IS a grave, deeply disturbing reality. But, it's not the subject here. If you want to discuss this, I suggest you begin a thread entitled, "Why Does No Denomination on the Planet Agree with Mine on What Is and Is Not Scripture?" I'll post in it, sharing the grave concern Catholics feel and now my perspective on that as a Protestant (I'm much less disturbed by your situation than I was when I too was Catholic).

I am not proposing that as a topic of discussion, Josiah, so your suggestion is unwarranted. I am stating that I do not understand how we are supposed to practice using Scripture as the only norma normans in evaluating matters of Christian faith, when the canon of Scripture is in itself a matter of Christian faith. This statement does not even mention the organization I belong to, so please, if you are going to respond to me, take care to not misrepresent what is being stated.

2. Do you embrace the Rule of Law? Did you know that there is not one corpus of law - there are MILLIONS of different ones, and it changes daily (hourly)? You likely are not even aware of all the laws on the planet - or even in your own jurisdiction! And yet.....

What does this have to do with the topic? Is it something about personal accountability? I acknowledge that I am accountable to the local, state, and national laws where I live, and I also acknowledge that I am accountable to the Word of God, and as I have stated previously, I find part of your original post to be misleading, because as a Catholic I do not reject personal accountability.

 

[Rick Otto]

qu

ote=Thekla;Okay, but calling your dad "dad" or "father" describes a relationship.

Titles describe relationships too. The problem is not in description per se, it is the use of the description as title as in "Rabbi".

Paul referring to himself as father describes a relationship (to his spiritual children, like Timothy). Referring to himself as apostle describes a relationship.

No problemo seniorita Theklita.

The name "Paul" is more of a title than apostle or father

Personal names are not titles.

I still don't understand why "father" is necessarily a title; in my experience, it isn't.

Your experience must not include RCC priests.
I have no idea whether EOs title their priests with.

As for thinking about father or apostle as a title - if it is a problem, why did Paul use the terms ?

Jesus did not say "Call no man apostle" did He? If & when He does, it'll be included in this discussion. Until then it only looks like a vain attempt at easy equation.
Paul did not use the term "Father" as a title. Where in scripture is he addressed as "Father Paul"?

 

[Rick Otto]

I do not reject personal accountability.

Perhaps the problem is to whom you choose to be personaly accountable to.
There are more than one orthodoxies and more than one canon of scripture.
Being first with one does not insure being right.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Perhaps the problem is to whom you choose to be personaly accountable to.
There are more than one orthodoxies and more than one canon of scripture.
Being first with one does not insure being right.

This is intriguing. First and foremost, I am accountable to God Almighty, as would say many others, who hold to a different canon of Scripture.

 

[Rick Otto]

This is intriguing. First and foremost, I am accountable to God Almighty, as would say many others, who hold to a different canon of Scripture.

Cool. Me too.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Cool. Me too.

Keep with the Spirit of Love, the Holy Comforter.

 

[Thekla]

quTitles describe relationships too. The problem is not in description per se, it is the use of the description as title as in "Rabbi".

Hmm .. as in where ?

Personal names are not titles.

The name does not describe a relationship, and the title can be used as a name - as in, "yes, officer".

Your experience must not include RCC priests.
I have no idea whether EOs title their priests with.

All sorts of people called my (Protestant) father Rev. ____.
EO priests call their priest "fr. _________"; this describes a relationship.

Jesus did not say "Call no man apostle" did He? If & when He does, it'll be included in this discussion. Until then it only looks like a vain attempt at easy equation.

Doesn't rule-out of some "titles" but not others = equation ?

Paul did not use the term "Father" as a title. Where in scripture is he addressed as "Father Paul"?

This seems a little bit strained ...

 

[twob4me]

This is just a reminder to stay on topic. See the following rule on Off Topic posts:

submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion. Off Topic posts will be moved or removed.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Thekla;58851280]Hmm .. as in where ?

Topicaly enough, we can use the Sola Scriptura method to see it as in right here:
Matt23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. [9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

The name does not describe a relationship, and the title can be used as a name - as in, "yes, officer".

LOL!!!!! You must be joking?!?!?! "Officer" used as a name?
"Dad" I'll give ya, "Mom" I'll give ya, "officer"? No way.

All sorts of people called my (Protestant) father Rev. ____.
EO priests call their priest "fr. _________"; this describes a relationship.

So it does, & so I agreed, but when the description is also a title, it defies the words of Jesus in Matt23. When you want your dad to pass the olives do you say, "Reverend ~ will you please pass the olives?"
I don't think so, but try it & see how he reacts. I would say "all types of religious people" use the titles.

Doesn't rule-out of some "titles" but not others = equation ?

No. It equals distinction. "Brother" & "Sister" are two distinct & scripturaly accepted titles.

This seems a little bit strained ...

Think "refined". I remember straining to overcome my disrespect for what I considered outlandishly anti-scriptural practices & doctrines as I tried to convey the respect those titled individuals demanded & would punish me for not conveying.

 

[Thekla]

Topicaly enough, we can use the Sola Scriptura method to see it as in right here:
Matt23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. [9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

You don't use the term "Mr."

LOL!!!!! You must be joking?!?!?! "Officer" used as a name?
"Dad" I'll give ya, "Mom" I'll give ya, "officer"? No way.

Maybe I think "off", but "to call" means to call out or to name, or etc.

If I call "mom", or "officer", I'm still using a name to call to someone.

So it does, & so I agreed, but when the description is also a title, it defies the words of Jesus in Matt23. When you want your dad to pass the olives do you say, "Reverend ~ will you please pass the olives?"
I don't think so, but try it & see how he reacts. I would say "all types of religious people" use the titles.

No, I would say "father" in that instance.

No. It equals distinction. "Brother" & "Sister" are two distinct & scripturaly accepted titles.

No more no less (unless you're Quaker - then it's "friend" for everyone). It's still a distinction.

Think "refined". I remember straining to overcome my disrespect for what I considered outlandishly anti-scriptural practices & doctrines as I tried to convey the respect those titled individuals demanded & would punish me for not conveying.

I don't find this usage unscriptural at all - there is a different between the ultimate origin (Pater), and the One Who reveals (Christ) and guides (rabbi) and the relationship denoting use of "father", etc.

Paul calls himself father, because he has begotten some in the good news.
To self refer is still to call.

To call someone father is not the same as denoting that person as "origin" (one of the meanings of pater, along with the one who defines you by begetting, naming, etc.).

 

[katherine2001]

Rick, what do you call a police man if you are talking to him? I don't know about you, but I call him "officer", either alone or "Officer" and then his last name.

 

[Criada]

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[FreeinChrist]

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this thread is staying closed. There was a warning about staying on topic but it was ignored, so that is why the thread is closed now permanently