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Your view is hyperbole, as it hasn't happened, while the historicists' is well founded on the history you neglect.The confusion is when people start changing the 1260 days into 1260 years.
There are four beast that represent four kingdoms in Daniel 7, not five.It follows that the seven kings are the five beasts in Daniel 7 (the papacy is the fifth),
There are four beast that represent four kingdoms in Daniel 7, not five.
The ten kings come out the fourth kingdom in the text.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Daniel 7:11 is talking about the end of the fourth kingdom. The kingdom of the beast person, in the end times.Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Daniel says the little horn is the same beast in Revelation 19,
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Verse and chapter please.Jezebel illustrates the established papacy, commencing with AD 538.
To start with I never even said Revelation 1:5 represents the 7th trumpet.Revelation 11 affirms, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ,” at the seventh trumpet. Revelation 1:5 does not represent the seventh trumpet. Christ tells us his kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), and Paul tells us we are subject to “the powers that be,” and that was Daniel’s fourth beast when he wrote it (Romans 13). It is safe to say we are still subject to the powers that be, and you misapprehend Revelation 1:5.
PS: the only faithful kings to Christ in Revelation receive their kingdom when Christ returns (Revelation 2:25-27, 3:21). All the other kings in Revelation, except for those in the eternal state, represent the beast powers in Romans 13.
I don't conflate the identity of the human and demonic characters. Are you familiar with the concept of "the divine council" in scripture? Back in the days of Peleg, God divided up the nations according to the number of the angels of God. In opposition to those righteous angels assigned to each of the nations, the "Prince of this world" had his own devils working against them - ultimately to no avail. One example on display in the scripture is the angelic "Prince of Persia" who resisted Daniel's angelic messenger and delayed his coming to Daniel until Michael the "chief prince" came to his aid. Behind the ancient kingdoms of the world, that hierarchy of righteous angels who were individually assigned to the nations of the world was one of the means God used to bring about His plans for those nations.As you conceded, Satan uses the beasts to his ends. It was Daniel’s fourth beast that ruled Herod, and he was the one that tried to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Obviously, the dragon illustrates pagan Rome. You simply can’t surmount the historical and scriptural evidence.
No, the prophets did NOT "conflate imminent events with distant ones". In Ezekiel 12:21-28, God plainly stated that an "at hand" prophecy would NOT be prolonged into "times that are far off". God said that an "at hand" prophecy would not only be spoken, but it would be fulfilled in the days of the ones who were originally given that prophecy. You can't simply brush off God's own stated definitions of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy. It is Preterists who correctly acknowledge the terms of imminence where they are given.Regarding your argument against the prophetic churches, preterism violates imminence as a hermeneutic. The prophets conflated imminent events with distant ones without disclosure of the protracted time in between to promote vigilance and thwart lethargy, which is the object of the Olivet Discourse verses 42-51 of Matthew. The same goes with the temporal markers in Revelation.
I have not dismissed the world empires being represented as Beasts. Daniel specifies the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms as being the first of his 4 Beast kingdoms. Daniel's final 4th Beast was said to be unlike the other 3 Beast kingdoms. That is because it would be a conglomerate blend of the power behind all those former kingdoms subsumed into the final Roman phase of the Sea Beast, as presented to us again in Revelation 13:1-2. The seven kings of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 were a subset of the Scarlet Beast. They were not 7 kingdoms themselves. That would be to add to the angel's interpretation of this.As to the seven kings, your argument dismisses the evidence in Daniel that all the satanic world empires, the kingdoms that stand against God, are illustrated as beasts. It follows that the seven kings are the five beasts in Daniel 7 (the papacy being the fifth), continued in Revelation with the sea beast as the little horn, making the two-horned beast the sixth, and the seventh the image. In the historicist view, we have order and agreement with Daniel; what we have in preterism and futurism is confusion and conflict with Daniel.
The 7th king or kingdom is not even part of the dragon nor symbolism. No 7th king or kingdom is killed.king 7 is the mortally wounded but healed head. So with 42 months left, king 7 has become the beast king 8.
Concerning the identity of the dragon, you pretty much made my case. Satan used Herod, but Herod was the puppet of Rome, under its authority, so it was Rome that tried to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” The dragon in 12 and 13 is clearly an illustration of pagan Rome. There is no evading it when versed in history and scripture.I don't conflate the identity of the human and demonic characters. Are you familiar with the concept of "the divine council" in scripture? Back in the days of Peleg, God divided up the nations according to the number of the angels of God. In opposition to those righteous angels assigned to each of the nations, the "Prince of this world" had his own devils working against them - ultimately to no avail. One example on display in the scripture is the angelic "Prince of Persia" who resisted Daniel's angelic messenger and delayed his coming to Daniel until Michael the "chief prince" came to his aid. Behind the ancient kingdoms of the world, that hierarchy of righteous angels who were individually assigned to the nations of the world was one of the means God used to bring about His plans for those nations.
We have another example in Ezekiel 28:8-10, where the death of the human "Prince of Tyre" was predicted. This description was followed in Ezekiel 28:18-19 by an account of the eventual death of the "anointed cherub", who was also called the "Prince of Tyre", working behind the scenes of that ancient city.
It is the same with Satan working behind the scenes using the means of the human agent Herod to try to disrupt God's plans for bringing Christ the incarnate Redeemer into the world. To no avail, of course. This same evil intention shared between the human and Satanic / demonic agents to destroy Christ does not make Herod and Satan one and the same character, even though they had the same evil purpose.
No, the prophets did NOT "conflate imminent events with distant ones". In Ezekiel 12:21-28, God plainly stated that an "at hand" prophecy would NOT be prolonged into "times that are far off". God said that an "at hand" prophecy would not only be spoken, but it would be fulfilled in the days of the ones who were originally given that prophecy. You can't simply brush off God's own stated definitions of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy. It is Preterists who correctly acknowledge the terms of imminence where they are given.
I have not dismissed the world empires being represented as Beasts. Daniel specifies the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms as being the first of his 4 Beast kingdoms. Daniel's final 4th Beast was said to be unlike the other 3 Beast kingdoms. That is because it would be a conglomerate blend of the power behind all those former kingdoms subsumed into the final Roman phase of the Sea Beast, as presented to us again in Revelation 13:1-2. The seven kings of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 were a subset of the Scarlet Beast. They were not 7 kingdoms themselves. That would be to add to the angel's interpretation of this.
As for the Land Beast of Revelation 13, it is listed as a separate identity from either the Rev. 13:1-2 Sea Beast or the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast. The Land Beast worked in collusion with the Roman phase of the Sea Beast and under the direct eyesight of that Sea Beast (Rev. 13:14). That made them contemporaries of each other at that point.
John (and the rest of scripture) commonly used the word "Land" or "earth" (tes ges) to speak of "the land of Israel" - the promised land. This Rev. 13:11 "Beast from the land" with its two-horned power structure was connected with the land of Israel and its Pharisee / Sadducee religious leadership. That religious leadership in Jerusalem had turned into a "harlot" and had prostituted itself by aligning with Rome in order to preserve "their place and their nation", as Caiphas once said. There was a definite financial advantage to the priesthood and the Sanhedrin rulers in currying favor with Rome in order to keep the money flowing into their own pockets. Follow the money.
I’m glad we settled that Revelation 1:5 does not support that Christ’s messianic reign in the inter-advent age.To start with I never even said Revelation 1:5 represents the 7th trumpet.
Jezebel is a false prophetess in a church which means she is part of the harlot. So are those who follow her. Jesus warns both Jezebel and her followers in the church at Thyatira that if she had they do not repent, He Himself will throw her them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) and kill her children (adherents to her doctrines) with death.
I see you are taking one scripture after another out of context and aligning it with whatever notions you have (though it does not align), and falsely claiming I said things I did not say from the beginning.
No point in talking to you about any of your interpretations, which are way out, because when you start with claiming I implied things I neither said nor implied, it's a worthless conversation, and worthless reading.
You're funny. Chapter and verse are for doctrine. Interpreting prophecy is reconciling history to narration and symbolism. Educate yourself.Verse and chapter please.
I could also say, "Jezebel represents the established Pentecostal movement, established in 1906".
Each one of us has equal proof and equal biblical basis for the above claims.
You've already made it clear that you have adjusted Jesus' Revelation to suit your own ideas.
Daniel 7:11 addresses the little horn; he’s the one “speaking great words” in verse 8. And 11 maintains he is a beast, period. You really have a knack for missing or evading details. The little horn is a beast/kingdom, revealed in Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23, and represents the sea beast in power and the scarlet beast when it’s wounded and to be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.Daniel 7:11 is talking about the end of the fourth kingdom. The kingdom of the beast person, in the end times.
However, the Daniel 7 and 8 little horn person will end up becoming the beast person of Revelation, who will be cast alive into the lake of fire
The little horn is a horn on the fourth beast. The horns on the fourth beast represent kings.Daniel 7:11 addresses the little horn; he’s the one “speaking great words” in verse 8. And 11 maintains he is a beast, period.
The is no eighth "head" in the text. The scarlet beast in Revelation 17 has seven heads, not eight.Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?
The little horn is a horn on the fourth beast. The horns on the fourth beast represent kings.
17:11 says the same beast, the scarlet, “even he is the eighth." He was previously, or before he was wounded, reigned before the sixth king, making him one of the fallen five.The is no eighth "head" in the text. The scarlet beast in Revelation 17 has seven heads, not eight.
btw, I wrote the sixth king was Nero, not Claudius.
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. little horn end times person
8. the beast (the little horn after he is killed and brought back to life)
_________________________________________________________________________
Why do not either the seven heads, nor the ten horns on the Revelation 17 scarlet beast have crowns ?
The ten kings are not historic kings. But time of the end kings who will rule with the beast person king 8.
On the Revelation 13 beast out of the sea, the ten horns have crowns, with 42 months left in the 7 years Revelation 13:5 for the beast person.
There is no eighth head on the Scarlet coloured beast.. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius.
Daniel 7 does not show that the little horn is a beast/kingdom. The little horn is a king that will come out of the fourth kingdom.And Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23 also show it's a beast/kingdom too.
Chapter 13 represents the risen ten kings from Daniel, illustrated as having crowns on their heads.
Jerry, why are you continuing to say eighth "head"? There is no eighth "head" on the Revelation Scarlet colored beast. The Scarlet colored beast has only seven heads, Revelation 17:3. Jerry, correct your copy and pasting, to say eighth king instead, going forward.Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?
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