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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    a 1000 would be A LOT to me, if i were to get punished for that long!
    heck, 20 years has been waaaaay too much for ME!
     
  2. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    here's a nice video on the victorious gospel, by a cheery softspoken guy... i think he agrees that satan will eventually be restored... if he is, i hope he lives FAR from me, or i want a SERIOUS apology!
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The same way everyone changes. How did you change? How did serial killer, Christian murderer & Christian Inquisitionist (of both men & women), Saul, who became the Apostle Paul, change?

    In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Satan has been sinning for thousands of years, so it may not be as easy for him to repent as a human being.
     
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  5. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    yeah, he better start writing stuff down lol
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What about children who die in unbelief?

    There's no mention of "repent before death" in those verses.

    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

    More literal versions say:

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no mention of "repent before death" there. What happens to babies, children & teens who die in unrepentance?

    Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    "Philo...uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful."Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

    Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

    In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom. Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My dear Needhugs: I will take "simple" over anything that even borders on know it all, any day. In the end what we think we know has to stand in the Light of the One we know! The volume of quantity means little if the Gaze does not stand with it! You behaved yourself with the spirit of a warrior of Jesus Christ the Lord, who says well done. You keep rising beyond your great need & He will meet you there as surely as the prisoner of Jesus Christ, brother in chains/glory R. Wurmbrandt. Again my girl, you continue today in my prayers before/in Him!
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Why does the Saviour of all mankind preach to the dead?

    "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

    Weymouth=

    "For it is with this end in view that the Good News was proclaimed even to some who were dead, that they may be judged, as all mankind will be judged, in the body, but may be living a godly life in the spirit."

    Robertson Word Pictures Of The New Testament -A. T. Robertson

    Philippians 2:10

    "That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampshi).

    First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina.

    Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

    Under the earth (kataxtoniwn).

    Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead.
    Here only in the N.T."

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water....For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    New English Bible

    "Why was the Gospel preached to those who are dead? In order that, although in the body they received the sentence common to men, they might in the spirit be alive with the life of God."

    Concordant Literal New Testament

    "For this evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

    James Moffatt

    "For this is why the gospel was preached to the dead as well, that while they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live as God lives in the spirit"

    The Jerusalem Bible

    "....that they would come to God's life in the spirit."

    New Living Translation

    "That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead- so although they were destined to die like all people they now live forever with God in the Spirit."

    Modern Language Bible (New Berkeley Version)

    "..Him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the good news was preached to the dead, so that, whereas they are judged as men, they might live with God spiritually."
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    We can discuss words and their meaning, but in the end what do we grasp of our Heavenly Father? My earthly father, like all fathers of calibre, loved me and would protect me. We have those who actually believe the Father of all fathers, does not simply correct, and at times chastise, His wayward children, BUT is intent on endless punishment for any that "cross" Him! To add to this already nasty scene, actually adds "unending torment" to the mix. I have no idea what would entertain a person to follow a god like this? I cannot grasp it, not for a second. Fine Linen, for one, will rest His weary head on Abba, who will join me?
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Through one trespass the judgment came Upon ALL MEN. To condemnation.

    EVEN SO

    Through one righteous act. The free gift came. Upon ALL MEN. To justification of life.

    How shall I describe the blessing that came to my own soul when Jesus Christ revealed to me that as potent as was the power of Adam's disobedience, mightier yet is the power contained in the OBEDIENCE OF THE SON OF GOD. All the languages and dialects of earth do not contain words meaningful enough to describe the immensity of the all embracing work of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. I fully expect that I will be misunderstood in these things, but I am assured by the Lord Jesus that one day the truth of it will be common knowledge, and all Christians and all people will be forced to acknowledge it. I suppose that all the arguments and persuasions in the world will not convince some saints today of the incontrovertible truth of the words under consideration:

    "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

    For as by one man's disobedience many (Greek: "the many" - all) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (Greek: "the many" - all) be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND" (Rom. 5:18-20). The Amplified Bible renders verse 20: "But then Law came in, only to expand and increase the trespass. But where sin increased and abounded, GRACE HAS SURPASSED IT AND INCREASED THE MORE AND SUPERABOUNDED."

    Grace did "much more" abound. More. MUCH MORE! My deepest prayer is that God may grant understanding to all who read these lines that you may see the wonderful significance of the word "more." You can never comprehend the greatness of God's love, the majesty of His the glories of His Kingdom in the bright ages yet to come purpose, nor unless your spirit can grasp this word "more."

    "More" is that which goes beyond the limits.

    A pound of beans is a set limit. I pay 53 cents for a pound package of beans. But if I find in my bag a pound and a half or two pounds, that is "more." It surpasses the limits of the 53 cents. I am amazed, delighted, happy, and a sense of well-being pervades me; someone has done MORE than required or paid for. It has a language all its own. That language of MORE THAN is what the Bible is teaching from the first verse in Genesis to the last verse in Revelation. That is what GOD IS AND DOES. That is what LOVE IS AND DOES. That is what GRACE IS AND DOES. That is what SALVATION IS AND DOES!

    Seek The Light: God Will Have All Men Be Saved - J. Preston Eby

    polus made sinners...polus made righteous
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Good gracious Clement, you are going to overwhelm us! The time it is has taken to compile these documents of yours is staggering. F.L. for one is very appreciative! Do you remember the atheist on the other board who posted a word "before eternal"?? I am still attempting to wrap my simple little head around the concept. Where do these guys come from?

    Hebrew Olam=

    HEBREW WORD STUDIES עוֹלָם, 'olam' for 'everlasting, age-lasting'
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Christ Triumphant (Thomas Allin)

    Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

    The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things

    The Restitution of All Things, Andrew Jukes

    The Inescapable Love Of God Tomas Talbott)

    Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

    "..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

    Eternity Explained

    ETERNITY EXPLAINED
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong! Aionios when applied to God means eternal.
    Irrelevant smokescreen. Does not address my post in any way.
    Is this supposed to make sense? How does this address my post?
    Meaningless argument. Like a schoolyard taunt, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
    More of the same meaningless argumentation, without any support.

    John Gill Rom 16:26 according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith; that is, it is by the express order and command of that God who is from everlasting to everlasting, that the mystery of the Gospel is made manifest by the preaching of the apostles being witnessed to by the law and prophets in all its doctrines; faith on Christ,..., Act_13:46; here is a clear proof that Christ is God, and that he is the everlasting God.
    One anonymous tablet of unknown date in Africa does not prove anything about the meaning of eonian, any more than the graffiti on a public wall is evidence of anything. A library of such a writings might be compelling.
    "Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":
    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen"
    I have already refuted this many times before. Only God is beyond eternal life because only God is greater than life. End of discussion. Your out-of-context quote says NOTHING about after or beyond eternal life for faithful believers. Origen NEVER uses the term "after eternal life" or "beyond eternal life" any other time in any of his writings. If Origen believed there was a after or beyond eternal life for believers his writings would be full of it.
    However in Origen's Commentary to John he quotes Heraclon a contemporary.

    (57) Let us also see what Heracleon says on these passages. He says that the [fountain and] the life and glory pertaining to it was insipid, temporary, and deficient, for it was physical. And he thinks he produces proof that it was physical from the fact that Jacob’s cattle drank from it.
    (58) Now we would not object, if he took the knowledge that is in part to be insipid, temporary, and deficient, or that which is from the Scriptures in comparison with the words that cannot be spoken, that “it is not permitted to man to speak,” [or] all the present knowledge that is “through a mirror and a riddle”72 and is set aside when that which is perfect comes. But he would be culpable if he does this to slander the ancient words.
    (59) He is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.
    (60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
    (61) He would be correct when he grants that the first life perishes if he meant that life which is according to the letter, when it seeks and discovers the life according to the Spirit by the removal of the veil. But, if he is accusing the ancient words of passing out of existence all together, it is clear that he does this because he does not perceive that those good words contain the shadow of future things.
    (62) Now his interpretation of the “leaping water” is not unconvincing. He takes it to refer to those who partake of that which is richly supplied to them from above and who themselves cause what is supplied to them to gush out for the eternal life of others.
    ...
    (67) And further, in reference to the clause, “He says to her,” Heracleon says that it is clear that he is saying something like this: If you wish to receive this water, go call your husband. Now he thinks that the one the Savior calls the Samaritan woman’s husband is her pleroma, and that by coming to the Savior with him she might be able to acquire power, unity, and union with her pleroma from him. For Heracleon says that he did not ask her to summon a physical husband, since indeed he would not have been ignorant of the fact that she did not have a lawful husband.
    (68) But here he clearly distorts the text when he says that the Savior said to her, “Call your husband and come here,” meaning her consort from the pleroma. For if this were so, he would have to explain in what manner she must summon her husband that she might come to the Savior with him. P.82
    When Heraclon is wrong Origen says so but when he quotes Heraclon saying,
    For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
    Origen does not say Heraclon is wrong. Eternal life "never perishes,""remains,"'not taken away," and "does not perish." There is no way you can refute that.


     
  17. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    awww, thank you for your prayers... i do TRY, but after having studied, in the end, it was the FAITH Yeshua gave me, that has made me rock solid in this... it took years for Him to confirm this to me, because I was soooo fearful and believing in eternal punishment 'just in case'... but He is not satisfied for me to believe He does that to people, just because i'm too scared to leave the 'catholic crowd'... Eventually I had a revelation about it, feeling SORRY FOR ME for that terrorizing belief, and an 'of COURSE He doesn't do that to people'... but as the revelation came, i YELLED over it 'HELL DOESN'T EXIST!!!!' lol coz i was afraid that the revelation was going to be 'don't worry, He does that to other people but not to YOU' hahaha... so I yelled over it, but it still got thru. and after that, slowly the faith built inside of me... because, as we all know, esp from trying to TELL people the truth about this... it's NOT gonna get into people, unless HE does it.
    hey, you know what i just found out? the word 'forever'... the ever means olam, which i just heard from a Jewish guy means 'the universe' or 'as long as the universe exists'... so that would be UNTIL the 'new heavens and new earth' the final age in the Bible, and the restitution of ALL THINGS :)
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    LittleLady, Our Father continues to amaze me after all these years! He is without doubt the Father of all fathers. Olam is a wonderful study and well worth focusing for a mite. I have visited again today a link I asked you to visit: I believe you can be a help to others! You were a great encouragement to me last night, and again let me say thank you and may He continue to bless and keep you.
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My friend you must lighten up! Life is too short to allow yourself to be so miserable! Take a few minutes and take a few lovely pieces of advise>>>>>>>>

    Please turn on your sound

    40 pieces of advise for every day


     
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