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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has bee.

    I repeat: aidios is found in exactly 2 passages of Scripture (2) You may consider them synonymous, St. Paul does not!
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Paul quoted Isaiah in Philippians, so Isa is relevant. "Willing worship" is nonsense. After the unrepentant have been punished for a greater or lesser time will they be filled with warm fuzzies for the God who punished them? The prison recidivism rate is 66+%. Many of those blame everyone but themselves, witnesses, judges, lawyers etc. even to the point of trying to harm them. So how do they change after God has punished them?
     
  3. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    I think that Paul used that confusing word in the particular scripture, if it's supposed to mean of the ages, as it does in other verses... it's BECAUSE Paul is TALKING ABOUT AGES in that scripture, the scriptures, the prophets of old, etc... and God is there thru all those ages
     
  4. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    I've been under a NASTY Hebrews 10 punishment from God since the 90's... it only drove me further and further into Him, trying to understand, WHY ALL THE CARNAGE???

    Job 5:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
    18 For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.

    19 He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.



    BECAUSE there is a glorious ENDING to all of this!!

    He shall deliver us for 6000 years and in the 7000 (millennial reign) years shall no evil touch thee... i just thought of that hahaha
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What's "orthodox...teaching"? RCC, EOC, Anglican, Calvinistic/Reformed or one of 100's of others churches? Christians who believe in the biblical doctrine of universalism (& hopeful universalism) are founds in the largest Christian churches & many of the others also.

    What makes a teaching "orthodox"? Majority vote? At times in the early church universalism may have been the majority view:

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your opinion is unsupported and irrelevant. Paul certainly used aidios and aionios synonymously to describe God, his power and divinity.
    .....A few more verses which clearly show that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal.

    1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
     
  7. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    you know, that ONE WORD, is left there for such a purpose as this... if it wasn't there, how could satan deceive 'the world'??? except the elect of course, whoever they are :)
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Paul did indeed quote the Old Covenant, and expanded in the New adding In to the worship, And the Baptist A.T Robertson taught koine at graduate level for 47 years. Note the words perfunctory genuflections!
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What about those who do not repent before death?
    John 3:16-18
    (16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
    (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
    Matthew 7:22-23
    (22) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
    (23) Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That has already been addressed before several times, e.g.:

    Der Alter 19/22 verse list:
    What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    And, of course, you believe both aion and aionios always mean "eternal", except when used in hyperbole. You've never shown one scholar, church father, lexicon, or commentary during the past thousands of years in support of such a viewpoint. OTOH many such agree in opposing your theory.

    It is a fact that nowhere in all the books of the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament is aion or aionios ever said to be "defined", "equal to" or "understood" as - "eternal, everlasting, etc.". Biblical Hebrew & Greek were very capable of expressing such a definition if the Divine Author of the Sacred Scriptures believed such was - THE definition - of the word. But He didn't. Nowhere do we read anything like:

    "understand this: the word aionios means no end"
    "aionios is equal to endless"
    "aionios is the same as eternal"

    The verse list of Der Alter merely presents arguments that in his opinion prove that certain verses he has selected mean "eternal" in their particular context. As i've shown his is just one interpretation which does not take into account other interpretations he hadn't considered. As such, in each and every instance, they fail as "proof texts" for a meaning of "eternal" in their particular contexts.

    The fact is, both aion and aionios were often used of finite duration in the ancient Koine Greek of the times of the NT and early church fathers. Consider the following evidence:

    The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    The Greek text may be found here:

    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

    In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

    ""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

    " "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
    That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

    "It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
    Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

    " "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

    Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
    Chapter Nine

    Which is verified by the following:

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

    The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

    “…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

    Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

    "In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

    "St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

    "Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

    Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

    Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

    "There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
    Hell's Destruction

    Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

    "Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

    "1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

    "...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

    "...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
    CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    Greek text here:

    http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

    continued next post
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

    "That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

    Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

    Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

    https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

    Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

    I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
    Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
    Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

    Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
    Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
    Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

    They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
    I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

    He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
    Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
    Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

    ’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

    Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
    Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

    And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
    In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

    When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
    I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
    From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

    Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
    For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
    Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

    Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

    "The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

    "..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

    https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

    Word Studies in the New Testament

    Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

    "...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

    "Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

    "As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

    https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096
     
  13. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    He is also the FIRSTBORN of THE DEAD!

    you know, i don't know what translation it's in, but i read that one day THE DEAD shall hear His voice, and if they listen, they shall be saved...

    i read that scripture YEARS AGO, it was God's first nudging me out of the terror of eternal hellfire doctrines

    but i can't find it again, coz i don't remember the exact wording or what book it was in

    i remember the shock it gave me when i read it tho, and tucked it away in my heart.

    I'm very tired, and am going to relax, the other peeps here are more knowledgable than i am

    oh and did you know that Jewish folks believe in THREE books? there is the book of unsavables, the book that can be talked into it, and the book of life.

    i can only image that the unsavables are the nephilim and such
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I have no idea regarding "warm fuzziess" but in the end">>>>>>

    "The whole of created life shall be delivered/set/free/emancipated from the bondage of corruption and decay"

    The whole is not quite as strong as ta pante.

    "from Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

    *******That is it for me for a few hours. The night shift should be in soon to assist Needhugs. Thank you Little Lady for standing with an old man.
     
  15. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    You are welcome! I'm much more simple in my understandings, not sure how much of a help i can be when peeps don't even click on the vids to see the PROOF and TRUTH...
    it takes a little time lalala here's a song for ya
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Evidently pure assumption based on no evidence. You only proved one side of the equation equals eternal, aidios, not aionios. Scholars agree aionios is used of finite duration.

    Furthermore, just because a word is applied to God doesn't make it "eternal".

    According to you the Greek word aion (eon) means "eternal". In 2 Cor.4:4 we read of the "god of this eon". But this eon will end, so it can't be "eternal".

    Satan is the "god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4). The "god" Satan's existence will be "eternal" just like God's existence. But just because the Satan-god is eternal, that doesn't make "eon" eternal when Scripture says he is the "god of this eon".

    Likewise, neither does it make "eonian" eternal when it is applied to God in Rom.16:26.

    Therefore your logic has holes in it & your argument fails.

    A number of Greek scholars understand Rom.16:25 to refer to a finite duration, even among those biased to endless punishment. Just look at a few dozen Greek lexicons, dictionaries & translations to see for yourself. Do you think you know more than them? Even verse 26 doesn't require aionios mean eternal. As my post documented, A. Deisman discovered a tablet from the time of the ECF Origen that said God is eonian and more than eonian (epiaionion). Moreover, if aionios in v.25 is finite, then contextually one should consider that its use in v.26 of the context is likewise finite.

    God was the eonian God over past eons that have already ended. Rom.16:25 refers to eons past that have ended. So in the same sentence continuing into v.26, the reference to eonian God can be to those past eons. That's a contextual case for the viewpoint that eonian in v.26 is also finite.

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    "Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen"
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  17. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    hey wait, i thought that satan/demons etc get let out at the end of the millennial reign, and when they attack 'THE city' God DESTROYS them with fire!

    Was it the origin guy that said evil has to cease to exist, and if anyone is ALL evil, they will cease to exist...

    i think the devil is pure evil.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  18. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    and obviously a 1000 years in the abyss didn't reform him! didn't make him repent, he got out of the abyss and just picked up where he left off!
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment, not even for the demons:

    "There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
    Hell's Destruction
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, 1000 years is like a day to God & nothing compared to eternity.
     
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