The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[FineLinen]

That the hand of the Father was so 'a part' of my coming to hear this message, I have no doubts. It was the first retreat I'd ever been to and a small group of us traveled clear across Kansas and partly through Oklahoma to get to Arkansas to first hear 'the message' that seemed to good to be true. Yes it took me 10 of studying, not to believe but to whole heartedly and with a closed fist agreement. But also to prove to myself that so many could be wrong. Though I already knew so many other divisive and fractured doctrines has bit the dust in my pilgrimage to where I presently am. I know that my heart bore witness to 'the truth' that first day, but my head???? well I've always been a 'thinker'. And I always knew that this would have to stand the test of a lot of 'hard hardheadedness' from other 'thinkers' more educated than I. Even though 'orthodoxy' allows a hundred different disagreeing theological boxes, I was sure it would never bow to this truth. So far, I have been right.

But, why us? Why were were drawn and why did we have the ears to hear? I still wonder what the Father may have in store for our futures. Especially us elders like you and I FL.

Dear Hillsage: That my friend was refreshing!

I know not why as a young lad of 13 misery gnawed deep within my life, crying out to know Him! Never once had I heard the Gospel of Abba & the Son of His love, but I knew there was more escaping my young life. The very first time, on the longest street of the world, my quest ended and began. I knew in a nano second why misery was a part of me! I did not belong to this world, I was simply passing thru to why I was born>>>>"that I may know Him" & His mighty resurrection Life.

Perhaps lambent glow best describes this Road, a Road of constant flashing, where the Living One leads us into Himself. My dear brother, this wee link has brought us together & for that it has been worth the effort. (pleasurable effort.)

 

[FineLinen]

God's sovereignty is everywhere to be traced: the error lies in failing to see that this sovereignty is that of Love.

Again it has been well said that there is no such thing as "pure evil ;" "so unrestrained is the inundation of the principle of good into selfishness and sin itself." - EMERSON on Circles. "There is a soul of goodness in things evil," says the greatest of Englishmen.

We have hints in Scripture that by evil permitted and overcome, something is gained which, perhaps, could not have been otherwise had, e.g., there is "more joy over one repenting sinner, than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

And if there is more joy in heaven, there is more love on earth from the same source, "for to whom little is forgiven the same loves little." Sin is very often the result of ignorance; how far this consideration goes I do not decide, but may there not be an element of ignorance in all sin?

Nor should we forget that in sinning, if I may say so, the raw material is very often the same as in the practice of virtue, but turned the wrong way - "there is," says EMERSON, "no moral deformity but is a good passion out of place. I have steadily enforced the guilt of sin, but it remains true that to sin greatly often demands the same qualities, that rightly used would have been great virtues.

Whatever the value of the above considerations, the larger hope has nothing to fear from any theory of sin that can be maintained. Take a lenient view of human guilt, and you thereby shut out endless penalty. Take the very sternest view, and the perpetuation of this awful hostility to God becomes inconceivable.

-Christ Triumphant-

 

[FineLinen]

Do you know the Father of all fathers loves you?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/falseprophetlist.html

 

[FineLinen]

 

[FineLinen]

66. Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)

67. Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)

68. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

69. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

70. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

71. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

72. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

73. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

74. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

75. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

To be continued

Questions requiring answers

76. Can God WILL anything contrary to His knowledge?

77. Did God know when He created man, that a part of His creatures would be endlessly miserable?

78. If God, when He created, did not know the result of creation, is He infinite in knowledge?

79. Power is the ability to do: is knowledge simply the ability to know?

80. If God knew when He created man, that some would be eternally wretched, did He not will this to be their doom?

81. If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)

82. If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?

83. If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?

84. If God made an endless hell before He created man, did He know there would be any use for it?

85. If God knew there would be use for an endless hell, must He not have created some men for endless misery?

To be continued

Questions requiring answers

 

[FineLinen]

Plain Guide to Universalism

Scriptural Evidence of Universalism

Scriptural Evidence of Universalism

 

[Hillsage]

http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/falseprophetlist.html

That list was actually encouraging, thanks for posting it. I never knew so many prophets, over the course of Christian history still heard 'the still small voice of God' over the loudspeaker of the religious spirit, concerning UR. Still I know it's just a drop in the bucket though. Because "wide is the path that leads to destruction" and many more appear on 'that path' for sure.

 

[FineLinen]

http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/falseprophetlist.html

Dear slavejeff: Keep up the fine work. Perhaps some day you will appear on this little list! You will need to make considerable advance in spiritual dimensions to stand with these mighty men and women>>>>considerable! The choice is not yours however: begin with the anointing of the Holy One and allow Him to open your deaf ears and enhance your vision beyond where you presently dwell. From there allow Him to draw/drag off/ impel you with power to Himself!

On second thought: do not allow Him!

 

[FineLinen]

That list was actually encouraging, thanks for posting it. I never knew so many prophets, over the course of Christian history still heard 'the still small voice of God' over the loudspeaker of the religious spirit, concerning UR. Still I know it's just a drop in the bucket though. Because "wide is the path that leads to destruction" and many more appear on 'that path' for sure.

The problem with lists is they always miss somebody!

Lets all go to the circus!

Welcome P.T. Barnum

http://www.pacificuu.org/publ/univ/writings/barnum_why.html#barnum

 

[FineLinen]

yeshuaslavejeff said:

http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/falseprophetlist.html

The problem with lists is they always miss somebody!

Lets all go to the circus!

Welcome P.T. Barnum

http://www.pacificuu.org/publ/univ/writings/barnum_why.html#barnum

 

[Hillsage]

yeshuaslavejeff said:

http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/falseprophetlist.html

The problem with lists is they always miss somebody!

Lets all go to the circus!

Welcome P.T. Barnum

http://www.pacificuu.org/publ/univ/writings/barnum_why.html#barnum

Yeah, I just went and checked to make sure. Abe Lincoln wasn't there. But then it's kind of hard to be a flag waver and not like Lincoln, maybe he got a bye.

 

[FineLinen]

sdowny717 posted

"BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED, this is not of YOURSELF being the gift of GOD.
And you don't have the mind of those infants your talking about, God can cause faith to spring up in them same as a rock can praise the Lord.

That is very interesting! I wonder if those in every dimension of the heavens, the earth and the underworld will experience faith to spring up?

"That in/en the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow & every tongue confess, You are Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Questions:

1. What does it mean to be In/en Jesus

2. What is the scope of the heavens, the earth & the underworld?

3. What does every mean?

4. Is the bowing & confession IN the Name by perfunctory genuflections?

 

[rturner76]

If we are going to really put our faith in Universalism (and I have at times) we have to admit that the Bible contradicts itself on this issue. Time and time again Jesus says we must obey God and or follow him in order to have eternal life. He speaks over and over about the day of judgement. As a Universalist how are these contradictions to no requirement to gain eternal life dealt with? Do we ignore the places where Jesus and the Apostles directly say we will be judged? For example:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

"That in/en the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow & every tongue confess, You are Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Did you read the rest of this passage? It sounds different when you look at the whole thing:
"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God"

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of
judgment and destruction of ungodly men

And I found about 20 more places where it either talks about judgement, hell,or separating the good from the evil. The Bible seems to be pretty clear that we will be judged.

I mean it makes perfect sense that God would not create someone just to send them to hell for eternity but the Bible doesn't seem to follow that logic.

 

[FineLinen]

If we are going to really put our faith in Universalism (and I have at times) we have to admit that the Bible contradicts itself on this issue. Time and time again Jesus says we must obey God and or follow him in order to have eternal life. He speaks over and over about the day of judgement. As a Universalist how are these contradictions to no requirement to gain eternal life dealt with? Do we ignore the places where Jesus and the Apostles directly say we will be judged? For example:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,


Did you read the rest of this passage? It sounds different when you look at the whole thing:
"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God"

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of
judgment and destruction of ungodly men

And I found about 20 more places where it either talks about judgement, hell,or separating the good from the evil. The Bible seems to be pretty clear that we will be judged.

I mean it makes perfect sense that God would not create someone just to send them to hell for eternity but the Bible doesn't seem to follow that logic.

 

[ClementofA]

If we are going to really put our faith in Universalism (and I have at times) we have to admit that the Bible contradicts itself on this issue.

It's interesting you mention that, as while reading an online discussion over the weekend i happened upon the following quote from the book "The Evangelical Universalist" by Robin Parry:

In the various conversations I have had on this question, what is being suggested is that the hell texts really do mean what traditional theology has taught but that the universalist texts really are universalist. This, it is said, is simply a tension that we must allow to stand. And how do we do this when seeking to work out our own eschatological views? What is normally proposed is a kind of eschatological agnosticism: we should leave the future in God's hands; the universal salvation texts offer us hope that perhaps all will be saved. The hell texts warn us not to take this for granted - perhaps not all will be saved. The Bible, by offering us both visions, will not allow us to settle down with a comfortable scheme for how the future will pan out. Instead it invites us to respond with hope yet without complacency. ...

I find [this view] appealing in some ways but I also find it problematic. You see, it seems to me that if the biblical texts really do teach contradictory things then the eschatological agnosticism being proposed is not really a way to do justice to both sides of the tension. In fact, it does justice to neither side of the tension. Why? Because in this view none of the texts say that some people may be lost forever but that they will; the universalist texts do not say that all may be saved but that they will. So even within the logic of this view the eschatological agnostic is, in reality, affirming the teaching of neither set of texts. Indeed, on this view, if all are not saved then the universalist texts were mistaken. On the other hand if, in the end, all are saved then the hell texts were mistaken. It is precisely to avoid such problems that traditional Christianity has sought to interpret biblical teaching on this subject as consistent. Tensions are one thing but irreconcilable contradictions are something else. ...

Bibically based theologies are funny beasts in that they are seeking to expound and somehow hold together the teachings of a wide range of biblical authors living in different contexts from each other with diverse theologies of their own. No biblically based theology today will be equivalent to Matthew's theology, Paul's theology, Isaiah's theology, or Nehemiah's theology. Rather, they will be concerned to understand all those theologies and to find ways of doing justice to them all in and for our own contexts. Karl Barth insightfully noted that "dogmatics ... does not ask what the apostles and prophets said but what we must say on the basis of the apostles and prophets." The task of theological construction is our task but it ought to be undertaken in submission to divine revelation. All our theology is under judgment and open to revision.

My proposal is that universalism provides a way of holding together a wide range of biblical teachings better than its alternatives. The case for it is analogous to the case for the Trinity (in case this analogy is misunderstood I am notclaiming that universalism is on a par with the doctrine of the Trinity in importance!). The claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is biblical is not equivalent to the claim that all biblical authors believed that God was triune (without question many would not have done), nor even the claim that any biblical authors had a fully developed doctrine of the Trinity (none of them did). Rather the doctrine of the Trinity is biblical in this sense: that it is (a) found in some New Testament authors, albeit in embryonic form, and (b) that it allows us to affirm and hold together the teachings of all the relevant biblical texts in ways that its denial does not. The claim of the church, which I affirm with all my heart, is that the full-blown doctrine was the natural development of trajectories inherent within the text itself and is the only way to do justice to the revelation of God in Christ. In that sense the Trinity is biblical. And, so I maintain, in that senseuniversalism is biblical too.

(p. 211-213)

for a free preview:

https://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-...&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Evangelical+Universalist

Time and time again Jesus says we must obey God and or follow him in order to have eternal life. He speaks over and over about the day of judgement. As a Universalist how are these contradictions to no requirement to gain eternal life dealt with?

Briefly put the typical Universalist position is that eventually all, whether in this life or postmortem, will meet any requirements necessary for salvation & to spend eternity with the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether they go directly to heaven, or must first pass through some sort of purgatory to arrive there. Hence the oft used term "Purgatorial Universalism". Such is evident in many Universalistic writings, e.g. some of the Early Church Fathers (ECF). For additional & more lengthy remarks re your question, including some ECF quotes, i'd suggest this post:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-30#post-72154410

Do we ignore the places where Jesus and the Apostles directly say we will be judged? For example:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Certainly not. We address them, as in:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-there-salvation-after-death.8041377/page-7#post-72135392

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2607


continued in the next post

 

[ClementofA]

Did you read the rest of this passage? It sounds different when you look at the whole thing:
"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God"

That quote is from Romans 14:10-12, whereas the poster was referring to Phillipians 2:10-11:

9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee shall be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, 11 and every tongue shall be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

Which is commented upon here:

The following 20 points, with slight modifications, are quoted from pages 197-200 at:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.

(1.) According to Vine, ―"bow", (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, "to bend") "is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10)." While, he says, sunkamptō "signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force" (Rom. 11:10)." 1

(2.) The phrase ― "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since "under the earth" refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation.

(3.) "No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart.

(4.) Paul links mouth confession with salvation. "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).

(5.) This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Mt. 15:8).

(6.) That this is true worship is confirmed in Rev. 5:13 and by the entire context (Rev. 5:11-14) if they are related. "Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: 'Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb'…" (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related?

(7.) The word "confess" in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as "forced" praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, "I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…" (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, "I praise you Father." Ro. 15:9 RSV states, "I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name" (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for "praise" (yadah) and "give thanks" (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3

(8.) Ken Eckerty in an article titled, "The Work of the Cross," said:

"I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done "in" the name of Jesus, not "at" as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated "in". "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…" Mt.18:20 "In" Christ‘s name implies an "entering into" or an intimacy with His name. Confession "in" His name cannot mean anything but intimacy."4

To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25:

21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.

(9.) "Surely in the LORD I have righteousness" (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent.

(10.) Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15; Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.

(11.) "All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory" (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.

(12.) "Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and WILL SUBDUE our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19)." Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship?

(13.) "He is ABLE even to SUBDUE all ―things" to Himself (Ph. 3:21). Note: "things" is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter!

(14.) "How AWESOME are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your ENEMIES SHALL SUBMIT THEMSELVES to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men" (Ps. 66:3-5). Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!

In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as "awesome" in the very context of "enemies submitting themselves" through His "great" power. And this mind you, is all in the context of "all the earth" worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is "forced" worship here? As well, they are "submitting themselves," not "being" submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a "compassionate subduing" from a God "delighting in mercy" (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is "even able" to do something. "Even able" implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most "awesome" and all powerful God!

(15.) "He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow" (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word "therefore" links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks:

"Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves." ⁵

The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, "Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe."6

(16.) Salvation is directly mentioned here. "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Ph. 2:11-13). The word "therefore" is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation.

(17.) God Himself works in them "to will." Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation.

(18.) "When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all" (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for "subject" is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated?

(19.) God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him.

(20.) Finally, some will say, "Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then." But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.

Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship.

1. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Thomas Nelson 1996, p. 75.
2 Fristad, Kalen. Destined for Salvation. Kearney, NE: Morris, 1997. 14-15. Original source: The Interpreter‘s Bible: A commentary in 12 Volumes. Vol. 11. Nashville: Abingdon, 1955. 51.
3 Wigram, George W. The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament. n.p. n.p. n.d. 499-500.
4 Eckerty, Ken. ―The Work of the Cross.http://www.savior-of-all.com/cross.html.
5 Talbott, Thomas. The Inescapable Love of God. Salem, Oregon: Universal, 1999. 65.
6 Milton, John. Quoted by Ken Eckerty in ―The Work of the Cross. http://www.savior-ofall.com/cross.html.

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13)



continued in my next post

 

[ClementofA]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of
judgment and destruction of ungodly men

And I found about 20 more places where it either talks about judgement, hell,or separating the good from the evil. The Bible seems to be pretty clear that we will be judged.

I mean it makes perfect sense that God would not create someone just to send them to hell for eternity but the Bible doesn't seem to follow that logic.

Universalists tend to take references to judgement in the Scriptures as Love Omnipotent's harsh but corrective measures employed for the good of the offender, rather than purely punitive or vindictive. And that any such judgement texts in the New Testament are often (1) referring to what came to pass shortly thereafter in the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 A.D and/or (2) referring to the aforementioned Purgatorial Universalism, for example:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

And I found about 20 more places where it either talks about judgement, hell,or separating the good from the evil.

I think it likely you'll find most if not all of them addressed on the forums here, or at the following sites:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

and in the many books written on Universalism, e.g. Patristic Universalism:

https://www.amazon.com/Universalism-Prevailing-Doctrine-Christian-Hundred/dp/0559563159

The Inescapable Love of God:

https://www.amazon.com/Inescapable-...rd_wg=saBiY&psc=1&refRID=Y0GB1D5ZP1QZ5F18R6PP

Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God (Paulist Press):

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Goats-H...&keywords=good+goats+healing+our+image+of+god

If there are any specific texts you'ld like to discuss, such as in that group of 20, feel free to post them in this topic.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear rturner76: My faith is not in the glorious message of universal reconciliation but in the God who raises the dead. There may seem like contradictions in the words of our sacred Canon but in the end of the day the One who made us leads us to behold a clear message with no contradiction in the slightest. Two foundations for this are faith which must come from Him & poverty of spirit which knows only in part and again is dependent on His appearing by the unction that opens our eyes and ears!

The passage in Phil. chapter 2, as you likely know has a foundation in the prophet Isaiah and finds further enhancement in St Pauls words in the Philippian passage. Being IN Christ Jesus is a glorious fact, all beings in all dimensions of Abba's world ultimately bowing in celestial worship IN that glorious Name another! I will attempt to write further on this later. In the meantime, may his Presence lead us to bursting springs from Above.

Isa. 45=

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45&version=NIV

 

[FineLinen]

76. Can God WILL anything contrary to His knowledge?

77. Did God know when He created man, that a part of His creatures would be endlessly miserable?

78. If God, when He created, did not know the result of creation, is He infinite in knowledge?

79. Power is the ability to do: is knowledge simply the ability to know?

80. If God knew when He created man, that some would be eternally wretched, did He not will this to be their doom?

81. If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)

82. If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?

83. If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?

84. If God made an endless hell before He created man, did He know there would be any use for it?

85. If God knew there would be use for an endless hell, must He not have created some men for endless misery?

To be continued

Questions requiring answers

Friends: we are nearing the 1/2 mark of the questions requiring answers. I trust you who read these words will find the depths of your being finding the answers.