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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The following is by fellow member Ronald

    The traditional belief is of an eternal Hell. Its interesting that Martin Luther had a problem with eternal Hell but was warned not to go there by Calvin. It might have been a 96 Theses. I do think the jury is not out yet, of course they have never been there to be sure.

    A study of a key word, "aionios" reveals that it has variable meanings. Usually it means age(s), lifetime, generation, epoch, when applied to the general realm. When it is used to describe God or His domain or our salvation, then it means eternal.

    So translations IMHO have improperly carried an eternal meaning to a place called Hell which is really the Lake of Fire (not Hades). They are not the same place, since at the end of the Bible we find Hades and Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed.

    That is another word, kolasis, which means to put an end to, annihilate. You cannot destroy something over and over for ever. You could punish for ever, but destroy and in this case burn in fire means the same as we understand it to mean. Paper thrown into a fire doesn't continuously burn forever.

    And so it is a stumbling block for many to think God would have a purpose in creating an eternal torture chamber. Sins needs to be judged according to and in proportion with their severity. Sinning for 30 or even 100 years does not warrant eternal damnation. God is just. Spiritual death is the end of a soul just as physical death is the end of the body, unless you are saved, in which case we get new eternal bodies.

    The concept of eternal Hell would not glorify God, nor would we be able to forever be aware of such a place of suffering. God would have to erase any awareness of the damned loved ones from our memories - how could we bare it. Them He alone would only be conscious of them - does that glorify or please Him? I think not. Besides, pain and suffering will come to an end along with death and Hades. People suffer in Hades at death and await their final judgment and that is enough.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  3. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Oh my how you practice to deceive when you misquote the Greek kolasis G2849 which is used in Acts 4:21:

    Strong's Greek: kolasis G2849 κολάζω κολαζομενους mince, cut up οr shred, chasten, punish, reserve for infliction: discipline; criticize harshly; purify

    The Greek word you quote is used elsewhere as: G2851 κολασις κολασμός From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment; chastisement, correction, Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46 chastisement, discipline, penalize, fine

    Acts of the Apostles 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish [G2849 κολάζω] them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

    2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    Matthew25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment [G2851 κολασις]: but the righteous into life eternal.

    You can see where the word punishment is used in other places:
    G5098 τιμωρία timōria From G5097; vindication, that is, (by implication) a penalty: - punishment.
    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment [G5098 τιμωρία], suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    2 Corinthians 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment [G2009 ἐπιτιμία], which was inflicted of many.
    G2009 ἐπιτιμία epitimia From a compound of G1909 and G5092; properly esteem, that is, citizenship; used (in the sense of G2008) of a penalty: - punishment.

    1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment [G1557 ἐκδίκησις] of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
    G1557 ἐκδίκησις ekdikēsis From G1556; vindication, retribution: - (a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.
     
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-

    Punishment=Kolasis

    Kolasis=

    Correction.

    Punishment.

    Penalty.

    Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

    Kolazo=

    1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

    2. To curb, check, restrain.

    3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

    4. To cause to be punished.
    Correction=

    Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

    Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

    Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

    Treatment of a specific defect.

    The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

    A rebuke for making a mistake.

    The act of punishing.

    Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

    The act or process of correcting.

    Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

    Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

    Amendation.

    Rectification.

    Rectification=

    To set right. To correct.

    To purify.

    To correct by removing errors.

    To adjust.

    A quantity applied by way of correcting.

    The act or process of correcting.

    Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

    Amendation.

    To correct something or make something right.

    The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

    To correct by calculation or adjustment.

    To adjust.

    To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

    The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

    “Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

    Fitted= Katartizo=

    To mend what has been broken or rent.

    To repair.

    To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

    To make one what he aught to be.

    " In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. "-C.S. Lewis
     
  5. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Oh my how you practice to deceive when you misquote the Greek kolasis G2849 which is used in 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to serve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: Greek kolasis G2849

    2 Peter 2:9 The LordG2962 knowethG1492 how to deliverG4506 the godlyG2152 out ofG1537 temptations,G3986 andG1161 to reserveG5083 the unjustG94 untoG1519 the dayG2250 of judgmentG2920 to be punished:G2849
    Strong's Greek: kolasis G2849 κολάζω κολαζομενους mince, cut up οr shred, chasten, punish, reserve for infliction: discipline; criticize harshly; purify

    The Greek word you quote is used elsewhere as: G2851 κολασις κολασμός From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment; chastisement, correction, Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46 chastisement, discipline, penalize, fine

    Acts of the Apostles 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish [G2849 κολάζω] them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    Matthew25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment [G2851 κολασις]: but the righteous into life eternal.

    You can see where the word punishment is used in other places:
    G5098 τιμωρία timōria From G5097; vindication, that is, (by implication) a penalty: - punishment.
    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment [G5098 τιμωρία], suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    2 Corinthians 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment [G2009 ἐπιτιμία], which was inflicted of many.
    G2009 ἐπιτιμία epitimia From a compound of G1909 and G5092; properly esteem, that is, citizenship; used (in the sense of G2008) of a penalty: - punishment.

    1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment [G1557 ἐκδίκησις] of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
    G1557 ἐκδίκησις ekdikēsis From G1556; vindication, retribution: - (a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to this alleged quote of Trench κόλασις, as opposed to τιμωρία, has "more the notion of punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender (see Philo, Leg, ad Cai. I; Josephus, Antt. ii. 6. 8); it is ‘castigatio,’ and naturally has for the most part a milder use than τιμωρία. Thus Plato (Protag. 323 e) joins κολάσεις and νουθετήσεις together: and the whole passage to the end of the chapter is eminently instructive as to the distinction between the words: οὐδεὶς κολάζει τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας ὅτι ἠδίκησεν, ὅστις μὴ ὥσπερ θηρίον ἀλογίστως τιμωρεῖται, ... ἀλλὰ τοῦ μέλλοντος χάριν ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἀδικήσῃ; the same change in the words which he employs, occurring again twice or thrice in the sentence; with all which may be compared what Clement of Alexandria has said, Strom. iv. 24; and again vii. 16, where he defines κολάσεις as μερικαὶ παιδεῖαι, and τιμωρία as κακοῦ ἀνταπόδοσις. And this is Aristotle’s distinction (Rhet. i. 10): διαφέρει δὲ τιμωρία καὶ κόλασις· ἡ μὲν γὰρ κόλασις τοῦ πάσχοντος ἕνεκά ἐστιν· ἡ δὲ τιμωρία, τοῦ ποιοῦντος, ἵνα ἀποπληρωθῇ: cf. Ethic. Nic. iv. 5: τιμωρία παύει τῆς ὀργῆς, ἠδονῆν ἀντὶ τῆς λύπης ἐμποιοῦσα. It is to these and similar definitions that Aulus Gellius refers when he says (Noct. Att. vi. 14): ‘Puniendis peccatis tres esse debere causas existimatum est. Una est quae νουθεσία, vel, κόλασις, vel παραίνεσις dicitur; *** poena adhibetur castigandi atque emendandi gratiâ; ut is qui fortuito deliquit, attentior fiat, correctiorque. Altera est quam ii, qui vocabula ista curiosius diviserunt, τιμωρίαν appellant. Ea causa animadvertendi est, *** dignitas auctoritasque ejus, in quem est peccatum, tuenda est, ne praetermissa animadversio contemtum ejus pariat, et honorem levet: idcircoque id ei vocabulum a conservatione honoris factum putant.’ There is a profound commentary on these words in Göschel’s Zerstreute Blätter, part 2, p. 343–360; compare too an instructive note in Wyttenbach’s Animadd. in Plutarch. vol. xii. p. 776." Trench's New Testament Synonyms :: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.

    So in favor of κόλασις (or κολάζω) being corrective Trench lists quotes from Plato, Aristotle, Philo, Josephus, Aulus Gellius & Clement of Alexandria. To those we could add early church universalists such as Oregon, Gregory Nyssa & many others. Moulton & Milligan continue to add to that list as follows:

    "The meaning ";cut short,"; which the presumable connexion with κόλος and κολούω would suggest, seems to be the original sense of the word. In the Paris Thesaurus we find quotations for the meaning ";prune"; (κόλασις τῶν δένδρων), and a number of late passages where the verb denotes ";correcting,"; ";cutting down"; a superfluity. Thus Galen ad Galatians 1:1-24 τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία τῶν ἐναντίων ἰάματά ἐστι, κολάζοντα μὲν τὸ ὑπερβάλλον. Of course this may be a derived sense, like that of castigo and of our ";correct,"; but in any case it is clearly a familiar sense during the NT period, and we cannot leave it out of consideration when we examine this very important word." Strong's #2849 - κολάζω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

    In addition to those, under the section on κολάζω in TDNT, J. Schneider notes regarding "inscr. given by Steinleitner from Phrygian and Lydian monuments of the imperial period" that in "these inscriptions the sins punished by deity are those against the deity itself, e.g. violations of the sacred cultic laws. The deity smites the offender with sickness and infirmity, or even punishes himself and his family with death. The sinner can win back the grace of the deity only by open confession of his guilt. In this way alone can he be liberated from sickness and misfortune."

    TDNT adds regarding Philo's view of the "legislative power of God" that this "power divides into two branches, the one for the rewarding of the good and the other for the punishment of sinners. Philo's view of God includes the insight that in God mercy is older than punishment (Deus Imm.,76) and that God would rather forgive than punish (Spec.Leg., II,196...). Punishment is for those who are not amenable to reason (Agric.,40). Thus punishment may seem to be the greatest evil, but it is to be regarded as the greatest blessing for fools, loc. cit. This is a Stoic view" ("Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", TDNT, ed. G. Kittel, Vol.3, p.815).
    The "New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis" (NIDNTTE, ed. Moises Silva, 2014, Vol. II, p.716-718) concurs with TDNT's remarks above.
    NIDTTE also refers to the 5 NT occurrences of the "derived vb. κολαφίζω" (kolaphizo, Strongs # 2852), "to strike (with the fist), fig. torment". It is used twice of "the Jewish leaders who struck Jesus during his trial before the Sanhedrin (Matt 26:67 = Mark 14:65)." (NIDTTE, p.718).
    "Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him," (Mt.26:67; NASB).
    There are no indications of an intent to correct Jesus via such actions by these evil human beings. Rather it seems vindictive or sadistic. Likewise with the occurrences of kolaphizo at 1 Pet.2:20 & 1 Cor.4:11, does the "buffeting" or ""to strike (with the fist), fig. torment" have no hint of correction.
    In all 4 cases of kolaphizo mentioned so far, they all are at the hands of men & do not indicate a corrective or beneficial purpose to those receiving such "torments". However, in the 5th occurrence of this word in the New Testament, that changes.
    In 2 Cor.12:7 is the only one of the 5 that refer to a Divinely given kolaphizo (compare Mt.25:46). In this context the Lord gives Paul a thorn in the flesh to "torment" or "buffet" [κολαφίζῃ] him, not as a sadistic or vindictive retribution with no thought of benefit to Paul, but rather for Paul's own good:
    "7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."
    In Matthew 25:46, like 2 Cor.12:7, is another New Testament instance of Divinely given sufferings, usually translated "punishment" (κόλασιν) (v.46) of "fire" (v.41). Shall it not also be, as the Divinely given sufferings of 2 Cor.12:7, for the good of the recipients?
    Clearly the words under consideration are not always used of correction. So in order to determine whether or not their usage in eschatological and/or postmortem passages like Matthew 25:46 & 2 Peter 2:9 is corrective, one must consider the contexts. In that light, therefore, it seems questionable what use there would be in an examination of all of the many ancient Greek occurrences of the words. Will they inform us of the view of the New Testament God of love in regard to how He interprets them in an eschatological context? Or do extrabiblical usages, such as you've cited above, often come under the classification of false gods, fables & myths which are to be rejected, as in:
    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    Do we find out what the real - good - God thinks on a subject by studying what the - evil - false gods think about it? Or how - evil - revengeful, bitter men with sadistic motivations use the words in question? They will punish from their own - evil - motives, whereas the - good - God, Love Omnipotent, always does so from the motive of the betterment of His created beings.
    In support of that there is much to be brought forth from the inspired Scriptures & nothing in opposition to it. There are examples where His wrath, destruction, wounding, punishment, anger and torments are intended for the good of those who receive such. And no examples to the contrary.
    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    Matthew 25:46: “And these shall be coming away into chastening(kolasin) eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (CLV)...1 John 4:18: “for fear has chastening(kolasin).” (CLV)
    The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. Luke 12:47-48a
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Everything of God finds its proper place in Him. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe - people and things, animals and atoms - get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the Cross."
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What Love Is All About

    It was a busy morning, approximately 8:30 am, when an elderly gentleman, in his 80’s arrived to have stitches removed from his thumb. He stated that he was in a hurry and that he had an appointment at 9:00 am. I took his vital signs, and had him take a seat, knowing it would be over an hour before someone would be able to see him. I saw him looking at his watch and decided, since I was not busy with another patient, I would evaluate his wound.

    On exam it was well healed, so I talked to one of the doctors, got the needed supplies to remove his sutures and redressed his wound. While taking care of him, we began to engage in conversation. I asked him if he had a doctor’s appointment this morning, as he was in such a hurry. The gentleman told me no, that he needed to go to the nursing home to eat breakfast with his wife. I then inquired as to her health. He told me that she had been there for awhile and was a victim of Alzheimer’s Disease.

    As we talked and I finished dressing his wound, I asked if she would be worried if he was a bit late. He replied that she no longer knew who he was, and hadn’t recognized him in five years. I was surprised, and asked him, “And you still go every morning, even though she doesn’t know who you are?” He smiled and patted my hand and said,

    “She doesn’t know me, but I still know who she is.”
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear friends: The following long posts which normally most normal people do not read are worth reading when you get a few moments.

    Please welcome are own Dr. ClementofA

    #546>>>#547>>>#548>>>#549

    Question about eternal damnation
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “Reason teaches us that Good having a divine principle, ought to be stronger than evil, which is essentially nothing but disorder and depravation; that evil putting man into a state of violence, that state cannot continue for ever; that this state of violence supposes its contrary in man, struggling against it…that God being the God of Order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the Universe, can never consent that disorder and confusion should prevail there for ever.”-Marie Huber-

    "How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever?.. What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?.. – Hannah Hurnard-



    No more let sin and sorrows grow,
    Nor thorns infest the ground;
    He comes to make His blessings flow
    Far as the curse is found,
    Far as the curse is found,
    Far as, far as the curse is found.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Your translations need to be pruned and cut short.

    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    John15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. G1581

    Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
    G1581 ἐκκόπτω ekkoptō From G1537 and G2875; εκκοπτεται extirpate, cut off, make an end of, eradicate, to exscind, cut down (off, out)
     
  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
    G1581 ἐκκόπτω ekkoptō From G1537 and G2875; εκκοπτεται extirpate, cut off, make an end of, eradicate, to exscind, cut down (off, out)
     
  14. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Seriously?
    Judgment Before the Great White Throne
    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    H7585 שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל she'ôl she'ôl From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), - grave, hell, pit.
    2 Samuel 22:6
    Psalms 9:17

    Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave [H7585]; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [H7585], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

    G86 ᾅδης hadēs “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
    1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave [G86], where is thy victory?

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell [G86] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. G86 is used in all these verses: Matthew 11:23 , Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23, Acts of the Apostles 2:31, Revelation 6:8
    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [G86] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell [G86]were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    What else could the lake of Fire be but the everlasting Fire from God?
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Matthew 13:40 he enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Things that are "cast into fire" are not annihilated, but continue to exist. Fire did not annihilate the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31).

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
    Love will conquer all.
    As someone said:
    "annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

    Endless infinite punishment for finite sins of a finite brief lifetime is not just, righteous & loving.

    Cut off, not annihilated for eternity or tortured forever:

    Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
    Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
    Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.
    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
    Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
    Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

    Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7). So Matthew 3 teaches that those burned up with fire that is not extinguished shall be saved.

    Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    John1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
    John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
    John 4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."
    John 12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.

    This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

    “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

    John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

    The Greek word for "end" is the same the NASB translates "outcome" (Rom.6:21) of a way of life. So re Heb.6:8 the outcome of their way of living is to go to the fire of Hades and/or the lake of fire. Thereafter they will be saved. The burning is to remove the nasty things - thorns & briers - from the land so that the land is purified & becomes useful for growth of good things.

    “The practice of burning fields has been around for a very long time–pretty much since the beginning of agriculture. And it’s always had one purpose: to clear out the weeds and thistles and thorns and prepare the field to accept good seed and yield good crops. In other words, if just tilling the field didn’t work, burning it was the next step, not as a sign that the field would never be any good and was to be abandoned, but in order to make it into a good field. I find it interesting, then, that of all the illustrations the author could have used to demonstrate the harsh judgment coming to apostates, he used one that, particularly to a society familiar with the practice, was redemptive, through and through.” William Barclay on Hebrews 6:4-6

    "...land itself is not burned but the thorns and thistles that grow upon it are burned. Sometimes people say that land is burned, but that is a manner of speaking. They mean that the land is burnt OVER. That is, the unwanted growth on it is burned up."

    "I live in FARM LAND country. And you know what they do here? They BURN the fields/ground/LAND. Do you want to know why? Because it's GOOD to burn the LAND. I just burned my Buffalo Grass yard last week too, and you know what was left? THE LAND. Didn't hurt my 'damned' land one bit. It purifies the dead grass/works, and that enhances the spring growth to be better. HELLO out there, my 'land' didn't go to Hell, just the weeds and dead grass was destroyed."

    What 'end' is intended the reader must determine by the context;
    Strong's Greek: 5056. τέλος (telos) -- an end, a toll

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    From the first 2 chapters of Hebrews:

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all
    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty
    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    1 Pet.4:17b what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (NASB, likewise NIV, ESV, BSB, BLB, NAS, etc).

    Answer: they go to Hades &/or the lake of fire until they are saved.

    What "judgement" was about to "begin at the house of God" (1 Pet.4:17)? 70 AD when the Romans came & the Christians lives were "saved" by fleeing from Jerusalem?

    "The judgment here spoken of is thought by many commentators to signify the particular distress which was to happen before Jerusalem should be utterly destroyed."

    "...Whoever compares the accounts in the Scriptures, or ancient fathers, concerning the persecutions which befell the Christians about this time, with the sufferings of the Jews, as related by Josephus, will easily see that the distress only began with the Christians, and was light compared with what afterward fell upon the Jews: for when Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians escaped with their lives, and enjoyed more peace and tranquillity than they had done before." 1 Peter 4:17 Commentaries: For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


    Saved from what? Death at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD? Hades where the rich man went? The lake of fire?

    18 and if the just one scarcely is safe, the impious one and sinner where will appear? (DG)
    18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (NIV)

    If it is hard/difficult (NIV) for the righteous to be saved, how much harder/more difficult will it be for the ungodly to be saved. That doesn't prove the ungodly can't be saved. In fact they won't be saved from Hades & the lake of fire, if they persist in rebellion. But even those who go to the lake of fire will eventually be saved.

    18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (NIV)

    Saved from what? Saved from endless tortures or endless annihilation? Or saved from going to be tormented in Hades or the LOF? And, then, being tormented only until they find salvation in Christ their Lord, "the Savior of the world" (Jn.4:42).

    17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
    18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?

    Peter asks these questions. Does he know the answer to them? Does he tell us?

    Saved from what? Going to Hades? The lake of fire? Then being saved when the lake of fire (the 2nd death) is abolished when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes All "in all" (v.28), even all who were in Adam (v.22).

    Compare from the same chapter of 1 Pet.4:

    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    and from 1 Pet 3:

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
    while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    and here Peter speaks again:

    Acts 3:21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of restoration of all, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.

    And Paul:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

    Why??

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    This should be so easy for you!

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?

    Please Note

    This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There is no such animal as "eternal punishment"! None, nada!

    Search=endless torment

    Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify search query & try again.

    Search=unending punishment

    Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify search query & try again.

    Search=unending death

    Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify search query & try again.

    Search= eternal death

    Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify search query & try again.

    Search=eternal damnation

    Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify search query & try again.

    Search eternal punishment

    Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify search query & try again.

    Search=everlasting punishment

    Your search query has yielded one result. Matt.25.46
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “It is love alone in the holy Deity that will allow no peace to the wicked, nor ever cease its judgments till every sinner is forced to confess that it is good for him that he has been in trouble, and thankfully own that not the wrath but the love of God has plucked out that right eye, cut off that right band, which he ought to have done but would not do for himself and his own salvation.” – William Law

    "It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn’s called the “hangmen’s whip” of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked over the sinner. But the kind of universalism in which I believe has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. – William Barclay-

    No more let sin and sorrows grow,
    Nor thorns infest the ground;
    He comes to make His blessings flow
    Far as the curse is found,
    Far as the curse is found,
    Far as, far as the curse is found.


     
  20. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    I guess you haven't read the Bible?
    lapidation H7275 רָגַם râgam A primitive root (compare H7263, H7321 and H7551); to cast together (stones), that is, to lapidate: - X certainly, stone.

    Leviticus 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

    he shall surely be put to death; no mercy shall be shown him, no reprieve or pardon granted him: hence it is said (f), there is no atonement for it, by repentance, or chastisements, or the day of atonement: so blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven, neither in this world nor in that which is to come, [GILL]

    Matthew 12:31, Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, shall not be forgiven unto men:
    by which is meant, not every ignorant denial of, and opposition to his deity and personality; nor all resistance of him in the external ministry of the word; nor every sin that is knowingly and wilfully committed; but it is a despiteful usage of the Spirit of grace, an opposing, contradicting, and denying the operations wrought, or doctrines revealed by him, against a man's own light and conscience, out of wilful and obstinate malice, on purpose to lessen the glory of God, and gratify his own lusts: such was the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees; who, though they knew the miracles of Christ were wrought by the Spirit of God, yet maliciously and obstinately imputed them to a devil, with a view to obscure the glory of Christ, and indulge their own wicked passions and resentments against him; which sin was unpardonable at that present time, as well as under that dispensation then to come, when the Spirit of God was poured down in a more plenteous manner.[GILL]
     
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