• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Status
Not open for further replies.

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
"The Bible does not say every person will be saved."

Not simply "saved">>>"Reconciled" >>>>>"Made righteous".

The identical mass (the polus) "made sinners" in Adam1 are the polus "made righteous" in the Last, the Lord Jesus Christ!

“It is love alone in the holy Deity that will allow no peace to the wicked, nor ever cease its judgments till every sinner is forced to confess that it is good for him that he has been in trouble, and thankfully own that not the wrath but the love of God has plucked out that right eye, cut off that right band, which he ought to have done but would not do for himself and his own salvation.” – William Law

"It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn’s called the “hangmen’s whip” of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked over the sinner. But the kind of universalism in which I believe has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. – William Barclay-

"Having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works"

Reconcile=

Definition of RECONCILE

Reconcile= Katallasso=

1.To change /exchange

2. To change from enmity to friendship.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟355,133.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 12:31, Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".

Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):

"Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit

Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
Definition of REMIT
Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
"An example of remit is to pardon someone..."

So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.

Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.


??? said:
Mark says it won’t be forgiven in this world or the next.

Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".
Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:

Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

??? said:
So death from this world obviously doesn’t pay for this sin if it is not forgiven in the next world.

Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.

We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.


"When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."

"...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."

Tom Talbott

Just what does it mean to say that God will never forgive or pardon a given sin

the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
"A belief in God’s universal love to all his creatures, and that he will finally restore all those of them that are miserable to happiness, is a polar truth. It leads to truths upon all subjects, more especially upon the subject of government. It establishes the equality of mankind – it abolishes the punishment of death for any crime – and converts jails into houses of repentance and reformation”– Benjamin Rush-

"I have come that you may have life, and have it more abundantly."

 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"The Bible does not say every person will be saved." Not simply "saved">>>"Reconciled" >>>>>"Made righteous". The identical mass (the polus) "made sinners" in Adam1 are the polus "made righteous" in the Last, the Lord Jesus Christ!
"It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn’s called the “hangmen’s whip” of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked over the sinner.
It cannot remove a threat that is not there. The only hell you will face, if you do not obey or accept Christ is spelled out plainly:
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God; whoever is in league with the one must be an enemy to the other; God and mammon cannot be loved and served by the same persons, at the same time; the one will be loved, and the other hated; the one will be attended to, and the other neglected: this may be known both from reason and from Scripture, particularly from Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and wealth. [GILL]
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
934588ad556874806465682300d7e7e0--funny-christian-pictures-christian-images.jpg
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him". Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863): "Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit
So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.
Matthew 4:11 Then the slanderer leaveth [G863] him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

G863 ἀφίημι aphiēmi From G575 and ἵημι hiēmi (to send; an intensive form of εἶμι eimi (to go)); to send forth, (send) away

G575 ἀπό apo A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

behold, angels came and ministered to him
Thus, as the angels are ministring spirits to the heirs of salvation, both in a temporal and in a spiritual sense, Heb_1:14 so they were to Christ. Nothing is more frequent with the Jews than to call the angels מלאכי השרת "ministring angels": [GILL]

You said:"What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10" unquote

Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
"Sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn't sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin.

If one man's sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God's gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do!

There's no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift.

The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!

One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down.

All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that's the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life - a life that goes on and on and on, world without end."-The Message-
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
“Parables are told only because they are true, not because the actions of the characters in them can be recommended for imitation. Good Samaritans are regularly sued. Fathers who give parties for wayward sons are rightly rebuked, Employers who pay equal wages for unequal work have labor-relations problems. And any Shepherd who makes a practice of leaving ninety-nine sheep to chase after a lost one quickly goes out of the sheep-ranching business.

The parables are true only because they are like what God is like, not because they are models for us to copy. It is simply a fact that the one thing we dare not under any circumstances imitate is the only thing that can save us. The parables are, one and all, about the foolishness by which Grace raises the dead. They apply to no sensible process at all - only to the divine insanity that brings everything out of nothing.” - Robert F. Capon-

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
“Parables are told only because they are true, not because the actions of the characters in them can be recommended for imitation. Good Samaritans are regularly sued. Fathers who give parties for wayward sons are rightly rebuked, Employers who pay equal wages for unequal work have labor-relations problems. And any Shepherd who makes a practice of leaving ninety-nine sheep to chase after a lost one quickly goes out of the sheep-ranching business.
The parables are true only because they are like what God is like, not because they are models for us to copy. - Robert F. Capon-
I guess Robert F Capon will miss the boat to give us the light of the knowledge and shall not perceive

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

external professors may fall from the Gospel, and the religion they have professed, and come short of the glory they expected; and fall into just and deserved punishment, in like manner as the unbelieving Israelites did. [GILL]

Matthew 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

Matthew 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthewthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Proverbs 20:12  The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Exo_4:11  And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
To believe that anyone goes into the Lake of Fire to bear that punishment again for sin is actually to diminish the work of Calvary and to detract from the perfect atonement of the cross, making it without effect and altogether unnecessary. Hence, we must view the Lake of Fire as being something other than retributive; and our only alternative is that the Lake of Fire is remedial. --Charles P. Schmitt, "The Unending Triumph of Jesus Christ"

In the New Testament Greek we really find the depth of meaning for this word, reconcile, which is to change thoroughly. There can be no true unification without first a thorough change. Thus, we are not seeking for just a present-time harmony, covering over the past and hoping for the best in the future, but we desire that the Spirit of God, working within, shall bring a thorough change in us, and then we shall be united with our Lord...There must be a change before unification, 'for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness" and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?'" --Ray Prinzing


https://www.godfire.net/rayprinzing/index.html
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟355,133.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I guess you haven't read the Bible?
lapidation H7275 רָגַם râgam A primitive root (compare H7263, H7321 and H7551); to cast together (stones), that is, to lapidate: - X certainly, stone.

Leviticus 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

he shall surely be put to death; no mercy shall be shown him, no reprieve or pardon granted him: hence it is said (f), there is no atonement for it, by repentance, or chastisements, or the day of atonement: so blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven, neither in this world nor in that which is to come, [GILL]

Calvinist John Gill's commentary is not "the Bible".

Nothing in Lev.24:16 says any sinner will never be saved.

Lev 26:18 " 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over."

Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18 “I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Although John Wesley is not on record as a universalist, he was greatly influenced by the Moravians, many of whom were universalists.

He quoted from Sixteen Discourses (Moravian Literature), the following statement,

“By his (Christ’s) name, all can and shall obtain life and salvation.”

One of Wesley’s intimate friends, Peter Bohler wrote:

“All the damned souls shall yet be brought up out of hell.”

(Bohler was made the Bishop of American Moravians, next in rank to Zinzendorf).

The Reformer Martin Luther had hope for all.

In his letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg in 1522, Luther wrote:

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."

Bengel's book, Gnomon, quotes Luther's exposition of Hosea as accepting the idea that Christ appeared to souls of some who in the time of Noah had been unbelieving, that they might recognize that their sins were forgiven through His sacrifice.

The risen Christ preaches to the dead.

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Calvinist John Gill's commentary is not "the Bible".

Nothing in Lev.24:16 says any sinner will never be saved.

Lev 26:18 " 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over."

Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18 “I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners
If you would only read more than one verse you might get somewhere:
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

The word for "wicked" signifies restless, troublesome, and ungodly, and is expressive of the pollution and guilt of sin all are under. Some are notoriously wicked, and all men are wicked in the account of God, though they may think otherwise themselves; and they become so their own apprehensions, when they are thoroughly awakened and convinced of sin, and of the evil of their ways, and are enabled to forsake them: though this may also be understood of "his own way" of saving himself, which is by works of righteousness he has done, in opposition to God's way of saving men by Jesus Christ; which way of his own must be relinquished, and Christ alone must be applied unto, and laid hold on, for salvation:

The Targum is, "and let him turn to the worship of the Lord:'' [GILL]

Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Come, and let us return unto the Lord,.... The Septuagint and Arabic versions connect these words with the last clause of the preceding chapter, adding the word, "saying"; and so the Targum and Syriac version, "they shall say"; and very rightly as to the sense; for they are the words of those persons under the afflicting hand of God; and, being brought thereby to a sense of their sins, acknowledge them, and seek to the Lord for pardon, and encourage one another so to do; as Israel and Judah will in the latter day, when the veil shall be taken off their minds, the hardness of their heart removed, and they shall be converted, and turn to the Lord, and seek him together, weeping as they go; having both faith in Christ, and repentance towards God, by which they will return unto him for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up; the same hand that has torn will heal and that has smitten will bind up, and none else can; and therefore there is a necessity of returning to him for healing and a cure, [GILL]

Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Lev 26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

he shall surely be put to death; no mercy shall be shown him, no reprieve or pardon granted him: hence it is said (f), there is no atonement for it, by repentance, or chastisements, or the day of atonement: so blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven, neither in this world nor in that which is to come, [GILL]
Matthew 12:31, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
To believe that anyone goes into the Lake of Fire to bear that punishment again for sin is actually to diminish the work of Calvary and to detract from the perfect atonement of the cross, making it without effect and altogether unnecessary. Hence, we must view the Lake of Fire as being something other than retributive; and our only alternative is that the Lake of Fire is remedial. --Charles P. Schmitt, "The Unending Triumph of Jesus Christ"

In the New Testament Greek we really find the depth of meaning for this word, reconcile, which is to change thoroughly. There can be no true unification without first a thorough change. Thus, we are not seeking for just a present-time harmony, covering over the past and hoping for the best in the future, but we desire that the Spirit of God, working within, shall bring a thorough change in us, and then we shall be united with our Lord...There must be a change before unification, 'for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness" and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?'" --Ray Prinzing
https://www.godfire.net/rayprinzing/index.html
There must be a change before unification and what could that change possibly be?

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Come, and let us return unto the Lord,.... The Septuagint and Arabic versions connect these words with the last clause of the preceding chapter, adding the word, "saying"; and so the Targum and Syriac version, "they shall say"; and very rightly as to the sense; for they are the words of those persons under the afflicting hand of God; and, being brought thereby to a sense of their sins, acknowledge them, and seek to the Lord for pardon, and encourage one another so to do; as Israel and Judah will in the latter day, when the veil shall be taken off their minds, the hardness of their heart removed, and they shall be converted, and turn to the Lord, and seek him together, weeping as they go; having both faith in Christ, and repentance towards God, by which they will return unto him for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up; the same hand that has torn will heal and that has smitten will bind up, and none else can; and therefore there is a necessity of returning to him for healing and a cure, [GILL]
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟355,133.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 12:31, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”, Lk.12:10) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Luke 12:10 doesn't say. Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes. Consider the following passages of Scripture where death is the penalty for blasphemy that the blasphemers were not pardoned from:

27 Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’” (Numbers 15:27-31)

Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Compare also these Scripture passages referring to death as the penalty that was not pardoned:

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost… Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost (Acts 5:3-6, 9-10).

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, “Surely this iniquity shall not be pardoned you Until you die,” says the Lord GOD of hosts. (Isaiah 22:14)

20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65:20)


Luke says it won’t be forgiven.

The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".

Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):

"Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit

Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
Definition of REMIT
Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
"An example of remit is to pardon someone..."

So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.

Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.

Mark says it won’t be forgiven in this world or the next.

Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".
Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:

Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

So death from this world obviously doesn’t pay for this sin if it is not forgiven in the next world.

Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.

As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.

We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.

"When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."

"...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."

Tom Talbott

Just what does it mean to say that God will never forgive or pardon a given sin
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟355,133.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There must be a change before unification and what could that change possibly be?

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Come, and let us return unto the Lord,.... The Septuagint and Arabic versions connect these words with the last clause of the preceding chapter, adding the word, "saying"; and so the Targum and Syriac version, "they shall say"; and very rightly as to the sense; for they are the words of those persons under the afflicting hand of God; and, being brought thereby to a sense of their sins, acknowledge them, and seek to the Lord for pardon, and encourage one another so to do; as Israel and Judah will in the latter day, when the veil shall be taken off their minds, the hardness of their heart removed, and they shall be converted, and turn to the Lord, and seek him together, weeping as they go; having both faith in Christ, and repentance towards God, by which they will return unto him for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up; the same hand that has torn will heal and that has smitten will bind up, and none else can; and therefore there is a necessity of returning to him for healing and a cure, [GILL]

Heb.8:11 And they shall not teach, each his neighbor, and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because all will know Me, from the least of them to the greatest,

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me--

Isa.11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God,
and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
"The redemption of men from every tribe, tongue, people and race is far from being the whole story of Christ’s work of atonement as John understands it. For he hears the choirs of heaven joined by the voices of the whole creation in a final outburst of praise. This should not be dismissed as mere hyperbole. John knows only too well that there is much on earth and under the earth and in the sea which has no inclination to join in the worship of Christ, and that these hostile elements are represented even in heaven. But such is his confidence in the universality of Christ’s achievement that his vision cannot stop short of universal response. He agrees with Paul that God has already in the Cross reconciled the whole universe to himself (Col 1:20), and that to make His act of amnesty and reconciliation known to the world is the royal and priestly task of the church, the success of which is already anticipated in the heavenly Amen ". – George Bradford Caird, Senior Tutor of Mansfield College, Oxford

Rev. 5.13

F.W. Robertson Word Pictures of the N.T.=


Every created thing (pan ktisma).

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added).

No created thing is left out.

This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

Saying (legonta). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with panta) present active participle of legw, to say. And to the Lamb (kai twi arniwi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne.

Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Romans 4:11 and the addition of to krato (active power) in place of iscu (reserve of strength) in Romans 5:12 .
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Vladimir M. Gelesnoff

Vladimir Michael Gelesnoff Memorial Part Two

"The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The ‘eternal state’ is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the 'final perfection' yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God." – V. Gelesnoff
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.