THE READINESS RAPTURE: It's not just another rapture theory

[keras]

Despite Quasars lengthy posts that attempt to prove a rapture to heaven of the Church, he fails totally. Nowhere is a removal to heaven mentioned in the Bible, other than 4 individual special cases.
Certainly no general rapture before Judgement, that idea is impossible; as it makes the deaths of the millions of martyrs to date, a waste and unnecessary.

In the book; Israel and Bible Prophecy, Brian Godawa says: “To think that the physical descendants of the Patriarchs are still God’s chosen people after Jesus has come and fulfilled the Old Testament types and shadows, is to negate the New Covenant and return to the Old Covenant and to the Law”. Quote.

The teaching by Paul given in Romans 11:17-27, metaphorically depicts natural Israelites as an olive tree.
After Jesus came and was rejected from the people of this tree, the unbelieving Jews were cut off, Jeremiah 11:16, John 15:6, leaving only faithful, believing Jews: The true Israel, within all Israel.

From another ‘tree’; wild olive stock, Gentiles who believe, who have accepted Jesus by faith, are grafted into the same tree from which the Jesus rejecting Jews were removed and so, now together: they comprise a single ‘Tree of God’.
This isn’t a brand new tree, but the original one; having its ‘dead’ branches’ pruned and new, spiritually alive ones of people from every tribe of Israel and every other race, nation and language, put in their place.

We Christians now share in the Blessings of God’s promises to Israel, made in ancient times to that specific nation, but now only applying to those with faith in Jesus, the One ‘tree trunk’, in whom all the promises of God are and will be fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 1:20

Over and over again, the New Testament shows this development of how the church, of both Jew and Gentile believers, through being in Christ: takes on the identity of Spiritual Israel, the true Israelites of God. Plainly stated in Galatians 6:16.
There are 18 specific identity markers that were applied to ancient Israel and that are now applied to Christians in the New Testament.

The Christian Church being the Israel of God is a continuation of the faithful remnant of ancient Israel. We Christians are the Overcomers for God, literally: His Israelite people. They are in every Church age. Revelation 2:7,11,17,26, & 3:5,12,23
Romans 3:29-30 Is God the God of just the Jews only? Isn’t He the God of the Gentiles also? Yes, of the Gentiles too, since God is One and He will justify the circumcised by their faith in Him AND the un-circumcised through faith.


As the evidence presented here and found in many other scriptures, is valid, then the opposing view of dispensationalism, with its Two people, Two Promises, must be invalid.

Unfortunately, the 2P2P premise is an immutable tenet of the ‘rapture to heaven’ false theory, so the truth of who the real Israelites are, is fought against by all who want God to remove them from the earth before anything bad happens.

This opposition to the truths of scripture, is something that may result in a loss of rewards, but not of Salvation, for them at the Judgement. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

 

[Quasar92]

The only place the word "heaven" is used in the passage above is where it says Christ is coming from heaven.

Nowhere does it say Christ takes us back to heaven.

You are adding that to the passage.

If you think Christ "comes as a thief" on the "day of the Lord", right after the event at the end of chapter 4, you have just destroyed the pretrib doctrine.
The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which are clearly Second Coming passages.

.

Where else would the Father and Jesus be? It is clearly recorded but totally unnecessary to be repeated in every other passage where it is obvious they both are in heaven. You have BO argument.

Mt.6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,a
but deliver us from the evil one."

Acts 7:55 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and sawthe glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”…
’
Jn.14:1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jn.14:28“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

THE FATHER' HOUSE IS THE NEW JERUSALEM OF REV.21:

Rev.21:1 "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’b or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Despite Quasars lengthy posts that attempt to prove a rapture to heaven of the Church, he fails totally. Nowhere is a removal to heaven mentioned in the Bible, other than 4 individual special cases.
Certainly no general rapture before Judgement, that idea is impossible; as it makes the deaths of the millions of martyrs to date, a waste and unnecessary.

In the book; Israel and Bible Prophecy, Brian Godawa says: “To think that the physical descendants of the Patriarchs are still God’s chosen people after Jesus has come and fulfilled the Old Testament types and shadows, is to negate the New Covenant and return to the Old Covenant and to the Law”. Quote.

The teaching by Paul given in Romans 11:17-27, metaphorically depicts natural Israelites as an olive tree.
After Jesus came and was rejected from the people of this tree, the unbelieving Jews were cut off, Jeremiah 11:16, John 15:6, leaving only faithful, believing Jews: The true Israel, within all Israel.

From another ‘tree’; wild olive stock, Gentiles who believe, who have accepted Jesus by faith, are grafted into the same tree from which the Jesus rejecting Jews were removed and so, now together: they comprise a single ‘Tree of God’.
This isn’t a brand new tree, but the original one; having its ‘dead’ branches’ pruned and new, spiritually alive ones of people from every tribe of Israel and every other race, nation and language, put in their place.

We Christians now share in the Blessings of God’s promises to Israel, made in ancient times to that specific nation, but now only applying to those with faith in Jesus, the One ‘tree trunk’, in whom all the promises of God are and will be fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 1:20

Over and over again, the New Testament shows this development of how the church, of both Jew and Gentile believers, through being in Christ: takes on the identity of Spiritual Israel, the true Israelites of God. Plainly stated in Galatians 6:16.
There are 18 specific identity markers that were applied to ancient Israel and that are now applied to Christians in the New Testament.

The Christian Church being the Israel of God is a continuation of the faithful remnant of ancient Israel. We Christians are the Overcomers for God, literally: His Israelite people. They are in every Church age. Revelation 2:7,11,17,26, & 3:5,12,23
Romans 3:29-30 Is God the God of just the Jews only? Isn’t He the God of the Gentiles also? Yes, of the Gentiles too, since God is One and He will justify the circumcised by their faith in Him AND the un-circumcised through faith.


As the evidence presented here and found in many other scriptures, is valid, then the opposing view of dispensationalism, with its Two people, Two Promises, must be invalid.

Unfortunately, the 2P2P premise is an immutable tenet of the ‘rapture to heaven’ false theory, so the truth of who the real Israelites are, is fought against by all who want God to remove them from the earth before anything bad happens.

This opposition to the truths of scripture, is something that may result in a loss of rewards, but not of Salvation, for them at the Judgement. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Your statement that I fail to reveal the Scripturally documented pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul is a failure is the epitome of fiction.

Either prove anything in my posts, #132, 133 or #139 is false, or the eisegesis you propagate is what is false.


Quasqr92

 

[keras]

Your statement that I fail to reveal the Scripturally documented pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul is a failure is the epitome of fiction.

We have all seen and refuted the so called 'proofs' of a 'rapture to heaven'.
There is simply nowhere that scripture plainly states that a rapture is God's Plan. Such an idea is only construed by assumption and inference.

I have shown many prophesies that tell us about a dramatic Judgement soon to happen, then how every faithful Christian will be gathered into all of the holy Land.
This scenario is the truth and every other theory is a fable thought up by man. Just as Paul said would happen in the last days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus said that we must take care to not be deceived.

Rapture believers have been careless!
Be aware that the end times will come to pass just as the Prophetic Word states, not as people would like to think!

 

[Quasar92]

We have all seen and refuted the so called 'proofs' of a 'rapture to heaven'.
There is simply nowhere that scripture plainly states that a rapture is God's Plan. Such an idea is only construed by assumption and inference.

I have shown many prophesies that tell us about a dramatic Judgement soon to happen, then how every faithful Christian will be gathered into all of the holy Land.
This scenario is the truth and every other theory is a fable thought up by man. Just as Paul said would happen in the last days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus said that we must take care to not be deceived.

Rapture believers have been careless!
Be aware that the end times will come to pass just as the Prophetic Word states, not as people would like to think!

None of your above opinion begins to refute the pre-trib rapture of the Church Scriptural proof in my posts #132, #133 and #139, that thoroughly refute your views. I suggest you open your eyes to what the Bible is saying to you.

Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Where else would the Father and Jesus be?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He is coming back here.

.

 

[jgr]

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Cloverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, also meaning ' departure or "to depart".' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

Debunked innumerable times, including by Darby, Scofield, Walvoord, and a host of other recognized dispensationalists, as well as every contemporary English Bible version in existence.

 

[Quasar92]

Debunked innumerable times, including by Darby, Scofield, Walvoord, and a host of other recognized dispensationalists, as well as every contemporary English Bible version in existence.

It is a shame there are those who are so hide bound, they bury themselves into believing they have debunked the very history that refutes them. Such as the example below, in response to the above post:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way," in perfect harmony with "departure," in verse 3.

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He is coming back here.

.

And He is coming from WHERE? From heavenm of course, as 1 Thess.4:16 so states. You missed the entire point of my post you partially quoted.


Quasar92

 

[Davy]

Now let’s take a brief look at the two most popular rapture theories. Pre-tribulation rapture scholars created the popular Left Behind series. They believe Matthew 24 only relates to the physical second coming of Christ, not the rapture. They believe Matt. 24 speaks to Israel or the Jews only, not the Church. On the other hand, Post-tribulation scholars believe Matt. 24 relates to both the rapture and the second coming, and that both events will happen on the same day. I disagree with both positions above, but I’d give post-tribbers some credit for recognizing the rapture and that it occurs after the tribulation; but they are incorrect about the second coming in Matt. 24. In my view, there’s no second coming in Matt. 24, only the rapture. I’ll say it again. The appearing of the sign of the Son of man is the rapture only, not His physical second coming to the earth. This is not only what I believe, but I can also prove it.
.
The grave mistake that scholars have made regarding Matthew 24 is that they have all reached their conclusions after reading only half of the text. They all believe Matt. 24 is the second coming, but it’s only the sign of His coming, not His actual second coming to the earth. If only they had read Christs’ entire answer, they might have discovered this truth hundreds of years ago. You see, His disciples didn’t just ask Him about the sign of His coming only, but also about end of the age as well (Matt. 24:3). But Christ’s answer did not end at the end of chapter 24, where most scholars end their study. His answer ended at the end of chapter 25 instead, where He actually told us about His second coming/end of the age. The trouble is that Christ included a very complex series of parables in between, which has been a stumbling-block to scholars for nearly two millennia. To fully understand His answer we must correctly interpret not just one, but all of these parables, and only then can we finally see His grand design.

The mistake you're making is with trying to insert an idea into Scripture that is not there to begin with. And it sounds like you do favor the Pre-trib Rapture theories of men.

The Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is definitely about the one-time return of Jesus Christ and the gathering of His Church. It aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church. In the Matthew 24 version, the asleep saints are gathered from one end of heaven to the other. In the Mark 13 version the saints still alive are gathered from the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him when He comes, meaning the resurrection happened and they are already there. Then the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Jesus and them as He comes back to earth. His return back to earth is verified in Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 which gives more info about His return.

In Matthew 25, Jesus is simply giving metaphorical examples of how it will be on that day of His return. The first example being the parable of the ten virgins. Then the parable of the five talents. Then He reveals the gathering of the nations after His coming, separating the sheep from the goats. And in reference to everlasting punishment at the end of the Matt.25 chapter, He is actually covering a time for after His future "thousand years" reign when the wicked go into the "lake of fire".

So Matt.24 & Matt.25 is actually from the time of the final generation just before the tribulation, then the tribulation, then Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church, and then during His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, and then to the "lake of fire" event at the end of that 1,000 years.

 

[jgr]

It is a shame there are those who are so hide bound, they bury themselves into believing they have debunked the very history that refutes them.

The majority of your hidebound compatriots are dead. It's too late to hideunbind them. Too bad.

Hideunbinding fifty contemporary English Bible version translators could be a bit of a challenge.

But give it a try and let us know how it goes.

 

[Quasar92]

The majority of your hidebound compatriots are dead. It's too late to hideunbind them. Too bad.

Hideunbinding fifty contemporary English Bible version translators could be a bit of a challenge.

But give it a try and let us know how it goes.

So are all of Jesus disciples, genius.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

And He is coming from WHERE?

And He is coming from heaven to WHERE, based on the words of the angel in Acts chapter 1?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


His feet left the earth and He went up to heaven, as the Apostles watched.

Get out a dictionary and look up the word "descend", which is found in the verse below.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

There is nothing in the passage about a trip back to the third heaven.
You are importing the idea from another passage to make your pretrib doctrine work.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



.

 

[jgr]

So are all of Jesus disciples, genius.


Quasar92

Yes, the disciples are dead, and they were hidebound too. There's nothing you can do about them either.

 

[Quasar92]

And He is coming from heaven to WHERE, based on the words of the angel in Acts chapter 1?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


His feet left the earth and He went up to heaven, as the Apostles watched.

Get out a dictionary and look up the word "descend", which is found in the verse below.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

There is nothing in the passage about a trip back to the third heaven.
You are importing the idea from another passage to make your pretrib doctrine work.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



.

You have a real problem in a constant rejection of the Scriptures that reject the views you propagate. Listen carefully: I have no disagreement with you in any of the Scriptures you have posted. The Scriptures tell us God's domain is in heaven, as I posted in #142, in several passages, as an illustration. Many passages the locatin of either the Father, or to Jesus location, is not documented, but fully understood by the scholar, they are in heaven. For example:

Jesus comes from heaven in 1 Thess.4:16 and returns to heaven in verse 17, fulfilling Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Confirming the symbolic passage of Rev.4:1-2, of John, representing the Church before the tribulation begins. Confirmed in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. in addition to the Church seen in heaven for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus returns from His marriage to the Church, in His second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, in verse 14. From where Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, leading His armies from heaven against the two beasts,i.e. the Antichrist, the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations allied to them. Jesus and His armies from heaven will defeat them and end the tribulation, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21

Satan is then thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years in Rev.20:1-3, and the first resurrection will take place in verse 4, followed by Jesus establishing His 1,000 year reign on earth, recorded in Rev.20:6.

Do you have any argument with that you want to argue about?


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus comes from heaven in 1 Thess.4:16 and returns to heaven in verse 17, fulfilling Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please show us the return to the third heaven in the verse above.

Underline those words for us in the text of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

.

 

[Quasar92]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please show us the return to the third heaven in the verse above.

Underline those words for us in the text of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

.

Review Jn.14:2-4 AND 28.When Jesus comes for His Church, in Jn.14:2-3, Reference is made to it by Paul, ib 1 Thess.4:15 and 16. In verse 17, the Church meets Jesus in the sky. from where Jesus will take us to our Father in heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:28. Do yo think the Jesus and the Church are going to remain in the clouds of the sky forever?! A little common sense is required, in order to understand what the Holy Spirit tries to teach us.


Quasar92

 

[seventysevens]

We have all seen and refuted the so called 'proofs' of a 'rapture to heaven'.

You have not refuted anything - the Only thing you have done is give your adulterated opinion
There is no proof of being raptured then immediately return to earth - you simply do not understand what or why the rapture happens

 

[BABerean2]

In verse 17, the Church meets Jesus in the sky. from where Jesus will take us to our Father in heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:28. Do yo think the Jesus and the Church are going to remain in the clouds of the sky forever?! A little common sense is required, in order to understand what the Holy Spirit tries to teach us.

If it is "common sense" to say that Christ returns to heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, instead of returning to the earth, why did the Early Church Fathers believe the latter, as proven by the link below?

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

 

[seventysevens]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why do you think Jesus will catch people up into the air - what do you think happens in the air when we are up in the air"