The RCC born in 313 AD?

[Viribus Unitis]

JP&K probably refers to the title of a book "Jesus, Peter & the Keys", but that's a guess of mine.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

JP&K probably refers to the title of a book "Jesus, Peter & the Keys", but that's a guess of mine.

Hey, thats a good book

 

[DD2008]

JP&K probably refers to the title of a book "Jesus, Peter & the Keys", but that's a guess of mine.

It does. I have a copy of that book.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Most do not.

Do you know why that holds no weight for The Orthodox?

Because it's the efforts of one person. Not the whole.

It will take much more.





Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA Many believe that the current office of Bishop of The Church of Rome to be defunct.

Due largely to a loss of proper succession and misuse of the office.

St. Constantine did not invent the office of Bishop of Rome, nor the Papacy. Forgive me...

Most do not..............

Which ones don't?

 

[Viribus Unitis]

EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION II.
[immediately following the above-cited letter of the Pope to the Synod of Ephesus]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]And all the most reverend bishops at the same time cried out[/FONT]: This is a just judgment. To Coelestine, a new Paul! To Cyril a new Paul! To Coelestine the guardian of the faith! To Coelestine of one mind with the synod! To Coelestine the whole Synod offers its thanks! One Coelestine! One Cyril! One faith of the Synod! One faith of the world!
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Projectus, the most reverend bishop and legate, said[/FONT]: Let your holiness consider the form (tupon) of the writings of the holy and venerable pope Coelestine, the bishop, who has exhorted your holiness (not as if teaching the ignorant, but as reminding them that know) that those things which he had long ago defined, and now thought it right to remind you of, ye might give command to be carried out to the uttermost, according to the canon of the common faith, and according to the use of the Catholic Church.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Philip, presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said[/FONT]: We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable Synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members by our [or your] holy voices, ye joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the Apostles, is blessed Peter the Apostle. And since now our mediocrity, after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, has arrived, we ask that ye give order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy Synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said[/FONT]: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (exarkoV) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (qemelioV) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Projectus, bishop and legate of the Roman Church said[/FONT]: . . . Moreover I also, by my authority as legate of the holy Apostolic See, define, being with my brethren an executor (ekbibasthV) of the aforesaid sentence, that the beforenamed Nestorius is an enemy of the truth, a corrupter of the faith, and as guilty of the things of which he was accused, has been removed from the grade of Episcopal honour, and moreover from the communion of all orthodox priests.
Source!
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Let me share how I read this fragment.

Hey chaps, this is Philip, an elder from Rome. I speak for the Bishop of Rome, you know that big guy. Anyway, we say that guy Nestorius is an heretic, and by the way he's no longer a bishop.

 

[MrPolo]

although we won't agree much, I'd have to agree with Mr. Polo that Geographical location would have no bearing on the matter.

I'm all about even small points of agreement.

 

[MrPolo]

Okay thanks for clarifying... on the 14th wasn't it in 3 spots at once with 3 popes?

The "Great Schism of Popes" took place right after Pope Gregory (I think) had just returned to Rome. So the event to which you refer was later 14th/early 15th century. I just wrote a paper on it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The "Great Schism of Popes" took place right after Pope Gregory (I think) had just returned to Rome. So the event to which you refer was later 14th/early 15th century. I just wrote a paper on it.

When did the smoke signals come about concerning electing a pope? Thks

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6790703&page=6
Great Schism and effect on Christianity and Theology

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]White smoke
White smoke vents up from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel meaning that Roman Catholic cardinals have elected a new leader after a conclave lasting little more than 24 hours.
Photograph: Andreas Solaro/AFP/Getty
19.04.05: Ratzinger named as new pope[/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]... but still no new pontiff
Black smoke billows from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel during the second day of the Vatican conclave, indicating that no new pope has been chosen.
[/FONT]

 

[simonthezealot]

LL thats called holy smoke!

 

[Trento]

Which ones don't?

The Catholic stance on these matters of ecclesiological unity (following Christ's prayer at the Last Supper: John 17) is, therefore, made very clear in authoritative Church documents. In his recent encyclicals the Pope refers optimistically to the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, established in 1979, and to his encouraging discussions with His Holiness Bartholomew I, Patriarch of Constantinople. The mutual anathemas of 1054 were revoked over thirty years ago (1965), with both sides admitting fault.
Thankfully, the majority view among the Orthodox concerning such ecumenical considerations is similarly open, forward-looking, and charitable (especially among its clergy). For example, Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, author of The Orthodox Church (NY: Penguin Books, rev. ed., 1980), and an Orthodox ecumenist, expressed the conciliatory Orthodox viewpoint in that well-known work (pp. 315-316, 323-324):

A vocal Orthodox minority, however, is currently expressing itself in an alarmingly different fashion, which might be described as "anti-ecumenical," or, in some instances, "anti-Catholic." This group is largely drawn from converts from evangelical Protestantism or from Catholicism

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Catholic stance on these matters of ecclesiological unity (following Christ's prayer at the Last Supper: John 17) is, therefore, made very clear in authoritative Church documents. In his recent encyclicals the Pope refers optimistically to the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, established in 1979, and to his encouraging discussions with His Holiness Bartholomew I, Patriarch of Constantinople. The mutual anathemas of 1054 were revoked over thirty years ago (1965), with both sides admitting fault.

How come the Protestants are left out

John 15:1 I AM the Vine/ampeloV <288> the True, and the Father of Me the Farmer/Vine-Dresser/gewrgoV <1092> is.

Luke 20:9 And he began unto the people to be speaking this parable 'a man planted a vineyard and let it out to farmers/vine-dressers/gewrgoiV <1092> and went from home for a long time.

 

[Viribus Unitis]

There also other venues of dialog with Anglicans and Lutherans. I don't know about every group or denomination, though.

 

[prodromos]

The Fathers of the Council of Ephesus signed on when the papal legates read out this statement at the council:

There is no doubt, and in fact has been known in all ages,that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place." (JP&K, 258)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xv.html

The statement made by the Papal legate Philip at the Council of Ephesus does not exclude the other bishops from being successors to the Apostle Peter nor that they also hold his place.

John

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

There also other venues of dialog with Anglicans and Lutherans. I don't know about every group or denomination, though.

Yes. There are ecumenical dialogues going on with many groups. But they each need their own seperate commissions because they each deal with a variety of different issues. This issues we speak to the EOs about are not the issues we speak to the Lutherans about, which are not the issues we speak to the Anglicans about, etc. etc.

Right now, Anglican dialoge is pretty dismal. They have been up to some whacky things which is putting more distance between them and us rathetr than bringing us closer together. Their stance on homosexual clergy and female priests are two problems. In fact, I think they themselves will be splitting up over those issues. Then we'll need another commission to speak to the new denomination. LOL

 

[nestoj]

A vocal Orthodox minority, however, is currently expressing itself in an alarmingly different fashion, which might be described as "anti-ecumenical," or, in some instances, "anti-Catholic." This group is largely drawn from converts from evangelical Protestantism or from Catholicism

Not to derail the thread, I'll just say - where I come from that doesn't stand.

 

[prodromos]

Okay. Still, if you believe the pope is an authentic successor to the apostles in general, then that precludes the charge that he is some 4th century invention. Yes?

The Papacy as it stands today is not an authentic successor to Peter and the Apostles from the Orthodox point of view.

I am not trying to pin down your specific beliefs on the pope. I am trying to establish what you do NOT believe, that he is some invention of Constatine. Am I correct?

Correct. The Papacy as it stands today is not a 4th century innovation. It developed some time after that.

John

 

[prodromos]

Do you know why that holds no weight for The Orthodox?

Because it's the efforts of one person. Not the whole.

It will take much more.

As Metropolitan Philaret stated in his response to the 'mutual lifting of anathemas' "... the excommunication proclaimed by the Patriarch Michael Cerularius is still valid, and the canceling of it by Your Holiness is an act both illegal and void."

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/philaret_lifting.aspx

John

 

[prodromos]

Thankfully, the majority view among the Orthodox concerning such ecumenical considerations is similarly open, forward-looking, and charitable (especially among its clergy). For example, Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, author of The Orthodox Church (NY: Penguin Books, rev. ed., 1980), and an Orthodox ecumenist, expressed the conciliatory Orthodox viewpoint in that well-known work (pp. 315-316, 323-324):

A vocal Orthodox minority, however, is currently expressing itself in an alarmingly different fashion, which might be described as "anti-ecumenical," or, in some instances, "anti-Catholic." This group is largely drawn from converts from evangelical Protestantism or from Catholicism

Seeing as the Russians make up by far the majority of Orthodox Christians today and they have responded with much displeasure to the actions and statements made by the Ecumenical Patriarch, it shows your statements above to be a mere fantasy. In my own church, part of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in Australia, the majority are Greeks who are cradle Orthodox, myself being one of the few notable exceptions. My church is strongly outspoken against dialogue with Rome. Do you recall how the people of Greece responded to the possibility of a visit by the Pope some years ago?

So what do you base such claims on? Where is this phantom majority of which you speak?

John

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

The Papacy as it stands today is not an authentic successor to Peter and the Apostles from the Orthodox point of view.....

Another Orthodox member here says that there is no uniform postion among the Orthodox on that issue. Are you sure you speak for all Orthodox?