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The RCC born in 313 AD?

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tz620q

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Well that depends :D

Revelation 17:9 Here the mind, the having wisdom. The seven heads seven mountains/orh <3735> are, the where the Woman is sitting upon them.

Matt 24:16 "Then those in the Judea let be fleeing upon [into] the mountains/orh <3735>."

Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the gentile cities fell. But God remembered great Babylon, giving it the cup filled with the wine of his fury and wrath.

Location, location, location.
 
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Trento

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CHRISTIANS in action, but no evidence of the Catholic Denomination AT ALL prior to the 4th century. Doing anything or not. In fact, there's no evidence of any denomination AT ALL prior to the 4th century - much less the specific, singular, particular one that exists today as the Catholic Church.

The Fathers of the Council of Ephesus signed on when the papal legates read out this statement at the council:

There is no doubt, and in fact has been known in all ages,that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place." (JP&K, 258)


Our critic is chasing "phantom Catholicism. The Pope, for example, is the linear successor of the Apostle Peter IN THAT he directly succeeds to the EPISCOPAL OFFICE held by the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 5:1), which was the episcopate of the city of Rome (called "Babylon" in 1 Peter 5:13, just as it is in Rev 14:8, 16:19, 1:5, 18:2, 18:10, 18:21, etc). And the episcopal office of Peter holds particular responsibilities when it comes to maintaining the unity and orthodoxy of the entire Church (e.g. John 21:15-19).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the gentile cities fell. But God remembered great Babylon, giving it the cup filled with the wine of his fury and wrath.

Location, location, location.
I would probably have a different view of that than the RCC :wave:

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her
42 saying "that if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.

Reve 18:8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and Famine and in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her
 
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tz620q

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I would probably have a different view of that than the RCC :wave:

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her
42 saying "that if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.

Reve 18:8 by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and Famine and in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

I had always thought that you supported other views than the old RCC = beast of Revelations or harlot. In my previous post, I would agree with you that the RCC will have much of God's wrath headed its way during the final days. God judges according to how much he has given and what you have done with it. Too many lukewarm Catholics that need refining.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I had always thought that you supported other views than the old RCC = beast of Revelations or harlot. In my previous post, I would agree with you that the RCC will have much of God's wrath headed its way during the final days. God judges according to how much he has given and what you have done with it. Too many lukewarm Catholics that need refining.
Greetings. I see nothing about the RCC in Revelation and never implied it......:wave:

Matthew 3:7 Seeing yet many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming upon his baptism he said to them "broods of vipers! who suggested to ye to be fleeing from the being about/melloushV <3195> (5723) wrath? [Reve 3:10/12:4]
 
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simonthezealot

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It is typically associated with Rome, of course, and was so at the time Vatican I was written. But by "not bound" I mean the Church could exist if Rome were destroyed or the successor of Peter moved. For example, in the early 14th century, there were 70 or so years when Popes presided from Avignon, France because of Roman violence and whatnot. And there was another incident when a Pope was exiled from Rome for a number of years by a king...I forget the date...
Okay thanks for clarifying... on the 14th wasn't it in 3 spots at once with 3 popes?
 
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prodromos

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Not really, because while the EO's may not accept certain papal authorities, they DO accept the fact that the Bishop of Rome is the Successor of Peter
We believe that ALL bishops are successors of Peter and the Apostles. It is not correct to claim that we accept the the bishop or Rome is THE successor of Peter.

John
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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We believe that ALL bishops are successors of Peter and the Apostles. It is not correct to claim that we accept the the bishop or Rome is THE successor of Peter.

John
:pray:
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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We believe that ALL bishops are successors of Peter and the Apostles. It is not correct to claim that we accept the the bishop or Rome is THE successor of Peter.

John

Okay. Still, if you believe the pope is an authentic successor to the apostles in general, then that precludes the charge that he is some 4th century invention. Yes?

I am not trying to pin down your specific beliefs on the pope. I am trying to establish what you do NOT believe, that he is some invention of Constatine. Am I correct?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Many believe that the current office of Bishop of The Church of Rome to be defunct.

Due largely to a loss of proper succession and misuse of the office.

St. Constantine did not invent the office of Bishop of Rome, nor the Papacy.

Forgive me...
 
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simonthezealot

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The Fathers of the Council of Ephesus signed on when the papal legates read out this statement at the council:

There is no doubt, and in fact has been known in all ages,that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place." (JP&K, 258)
care to share which session this is from?
Rather than citing 3 guys (JP&K, 258)who wrote a book in 1996...
 
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Viribus Unitis

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The emperor is naked, and I don't mean Constantine.

We know very few about early Christianity. That's what you have for being a minority persecuted religion whose leaders were systematically persecuted, often killed. But we know they knew not of denominations. To try to apply to them a concept born to describe modern christianity is, plainly, absurd.

Historically not only Calvinism but its forerunner -not the same thing- Augustinism was not there either. Hey, I bet Mark's Greek was worse than my English. They knew Jesus was God and that He had came incarnate to rescue as from sin and death and so that we lived God pleasing lives. Period.

They set up bishops and elders to keep things going and to preach the Gospel to the last corner of the world.

Then pagans started to make questions. Hey, how is the Father God and Jesus God but you only have one God? Did you drink the wine instead of vinegar?

That's how Theology started. As a defense of the faith. They were not even aware of the controversies that divide us today. Did you know why they followed the Apostles? Easy they had studied with Jesus, man.

Beats any seminary.

That or later with Paul, Peter or James or with many other heroic Christians. Those were the ones you could trust they knew about the Gospel; not some wacky gnostic philosopher with cool ideas about God.

That was their world. Can we really apply to it a term born for the Protestant Ecumenism? I don't think so.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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Many believe that the current office of Bishop of The Church of Rome to be defunct.

Due largely to a loss of proper succession and misuse of the office.

St. Constantine did not invent the office of Bishop of Rome, nor the Papacy.

Forgive me...

Hmmm. Well you and podromos seem to have a slightly different take here. Either that or I am misunderstanding one of you.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The emperor is naked, and I don't mean Constantine.
:thumbsup:

Nahum 3: 5 " Behold Me! declaration of YHWH of hosts; "and I roll of skirts of thee over thy faces and I show nations nakedness of thee, and kingdoms shame of thee.

Reve 17:16 And the ten horns which thou saw and the wild-beast, these shall be hating the Prostitute and desolate they shall be making Her and naked. And the fleshes of Her they shall be eating and Her they shall be burning in fire.
 
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namericanboy

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Okay. Still, if you believe the pope is an authentic successor to the apostles in general, then that precludes the charge that he is some 4th century invention. Yes?

I am not trying to pin down your specific beliefs on the pope. I am trying to establish what you do NOT believe, that he is some invention of Constatine. Am I correct?

There was division even before the schism with I'm of Peter, I'm of Paul..There was no Roman Catholic version of the church in the early days...The use of catholic in the beginning wasn't a noun..I think it's kinda ironic protestantism gets such a bad wrap when it was caused previously from division in earlier fleshly desire for control...Sad huh, for desiring the flesh be fed and the gospel message sabotaged...Just a side thought, not to bash Orthodox but I had just read an article about fighting in one orthodox church between their sects or what you call them..Sad how fleshly men distort the gospel message. Easy to see why divisions arose from the beginning..In spite of all this He daily adds to his church those who turn to Him
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Hmmm. Well you and podromos seem to have a slightly different take here. Either that or I am misunderstanding one of you.

That is because The Orthodox Church has no consensus on the status of The Church of Rome.

Forgive me...
 
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fated

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Since there was no response to this from RCs on another thead I thought I would start a thread on this.
Was the RCC born thru the reign of Constantine or not? Thoughts?

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=50129975&postcount=75

http://clf.uua.org/betweensundays/mi...nHeritage.html

.......But the simple, humble Christian church was soon to undergo radical change. In 313 AD the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, declared himself to be a Christian. Although Constantine originally called for religious freedom, power corrupted that ideal, and soon Christianity became an absolute spiritual monarchy, with the pope as spiritual leader. The Roman Catholic Church was born. Church organization and government became hierarchical and complex with strict laws and creedal statements which church members were required to believe..................
__________________
Sweet Christian victory after hundreds or years of struggled, marginalized as if there were more than one Church at the time. There wasn't even an Orthodox division until a bit later when there was a Roman political power play. Even that didn't end excellent unity. I would say that this is a ridiculous but unfortunately common argument.
 
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Trento

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Many believe that the current office of Bishop of The Church of Rome to be defunct.

Due largely to a loss of proper succession and misuse of the office.

St. Constantine did not invent the office of Bishop of Rome, nor the Papacy.




Forgive me...


Most do not.

Following is the text of the joint Catholic-Orthodox declaration, approved by Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople, read simultaneously (Dec. 7) at a public meeting of the ecumenical council in Rome and at a special ceremony in Istanbul. The declaration concerns the Catholic-Orthodox exchange of excommunications in 1054.


1. Grateful to God, who mercifully favored them with a fraternal meeting at those holy places where the mystery of salvation was accomplished through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and where the Church was born through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I have not lost sight of the determination each then felt to omit nothing thereafter which charity might inspire and which could facilitate the development of the fraternal relations thus taken up between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Constantinople. They are persuaded that in acting this way, they are responding to the call of that divine grace which today is leading the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, as well as all Christians, to overcome their differences in order to be again "one" as the Lord Jesus asked of His Father for them.
2. Among the obstacles along the road of the development of these fraternal relations of confidence and esteem, there is the memory of the decisions, actions and painful incidents which in 1054 resulted in the sentence of excommunication leveled against the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and two other persons by the legate of the Roman See under the leadership of Cardinal Humbertus, legates who then became the object of a similar sentence pronounced by the patriarch and the Synod of Constantinople.
3. One cannot pretend that these events were not what they were during this very troubled period of history. Today, however, they have been judged more fairly and serenely. Thus it is important to recognize the excesses which accompanied them and later led to consequences which, insofar as we can judge, went much further than their authors had intended and foreseen. They had directed their censures against the persons concerned and not the Churches. These censures were not intended to break ecclesiastical communion between the Sees of Rome and Constantinople.
4. Since they are certain that they express the common desire for justice and the unanimous sentiment of charity which moves the faithful, and since they recall the command of the Lord: "If you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brethren has something against you, leave your gift before the altar and go first be reconciled to your brother" (Matt. 5:23-24), Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his synod, in common agreement, declare that:
A. They regret the offensive words, the reproaches without foundation, and the reprehensible gestures which, on both sides, have marked or accompanied the sad events of this period.
B. They likewise regret and remove both from memory and from the midst of the Church the sentences of excommunication which followed these events, the memory of which has influenced actions up to our day and has hindered closer relations in charity; and they commit these excommunications to oblivion.
C. Finally, they deplore the preceding and later vexing events which, under the influence of various factors—among which, lack of understanding and mutual trust—eventually led to the effective rupture of ecclesiastical communion.
5. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his synod realize that this gesture of justice and mutual pardon is not sufficient to end both old and more recent differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.
Through the action of the Holy Spirit those differences will be overcome through cleansing of hearts, through regret for historical wrongs, and through an efficacious determination to arrive at a common understanding and expression of the faith of the Apostles and its demands.
They hope, nevertheless, that this act will be pleasing to God, who is prompt to pardon us when we pardon each other. They hope that the whole Christian world, especially the entire Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will appreciate this gesture as an expression of a sincere desire shared in common for reconciliation, and as an invitation to follow out in a spirit of trust, esteem and mutual charity the dialogue which, with Gods help, will lead to living together again, for the greater good of souls and the coming of the kingdom of God, in that full communion of faith, fraternal accord and sacramental life which existed among them during the first thousand years of the life of the Church.​
 
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Trento

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care to share which session this is from?
Rather than citing 3 guys (JP&K, 258)who wrote a book in 1996...

EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION II.
[immediately following the above-cited letter of the Pope to the Synod of Ephesus]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]And all the most reverend bishops at the same time cried out[/FONT]: This is a just judgment. To Coelestine, a new Paul! To Cyril a new Paul! To Coelestine the guardian of the faith! To Coelestine of one mind with the synod! To Coelestine the whole Synod offers its thanks! One Coelestine! One Cyril! One faith of the Synod! One faith of the world!
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Projectus, the most reverend bishop and legate, said[/FONT]: Let your holiness consider the form (tupon) of the writings of the holy and venerable pope Coelestine, the bishop, who has exhorted your holiness (not as if teaching the ignorant, but as reminding them that know) that those things which he had long ago defined, and now thought it right to remind you of, ye might give command to be carried out to the uttermost, according to the canon of the common faith, and according to the use of the Catholic Church.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Philip, presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said[/FONT]: We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable Synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members by our [or your] holy voices, ye joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the Apostles, is blessed Peter the Apostle. And since now our mediocrity, after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, has arrived, we ask that ye give order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy Synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said[/FONT]: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (exarkoV) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (qemelioV) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Projectus, bishop and legate of the Roman Church said[/FONT]: . . . Moreover I also, by my authority as legate of the holy Apostolic See, define, being with my brethren an executor (ekbibasthV) of the aforesaid sentence, that the beforenamed Nestorius is an enemy of the truth, a corrupter of the faith, and as guilty of the things of which he was accused, has been removed from the grade of Episcopal honour, and moreover from the communion of all orthodox priests.
Source!
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Viribus Unitis

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care to share which session this is from?
Rather than citing 3 guys (JP&K, 258)who wrote a book in 1996...

The quote is of the speech of Philippos, an elder, ACO t1 vol I, III,60. I found it in the FIC # 645, though in my reference it lacks a mention of any specific pope neither in Greek nor in the parallel Spanish text.

The document referenced is dated on the 11 of July 431. And sorry to use Spanish references, but those are the ones I have.
 
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