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Featured The Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by nopq, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Last Trumpet will happen at the end of the 7000 years decreed for mankind.
    That will be at the end of the Millennium, not when Jesus Returns for His Mill reign.
    Those worthy will live with God on all of the earth for Eternity, Revelation 21 to 22
     
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    Heaven and earth shall pass away

    ...

    that day

    //////////////This is the day - the end of the world - as to
    what man and angels don't know.

    the day nor the hour -

    It is not referring to the rapture. The rapture happens
    at the end of the great tribulation's 1260 days of trouble.

    It will be the time of the Gentiles over the city of Jerusalem.

    Daniel will rise -----at the end of the days.
    The dead in Christ must rise before there will be a rapture.

    OT saints are among those that died in Christ.
    There will only be one resurrection of the just saints.

    a resurrection to life

    many years later.....the resurrection to damnation - eternal
    judgment to the lake of fire
     
  3. Joyous Song

    Joyous Song Member

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    I read that study you recommended and found a giant flaw. In it correctly quotes 1.Cor.15.51-52 and linked it to 1 Thess.4.16. Yet he ignored one extremely important wording in 1 Cor.15.51 - 52 that places the timing of the rapture at the Last Trumpet!

    So when is the Last trumpet? Revelation gives the last trumpet, Rev.11.15. There are only seven trumpets and this is the seventh. Further it is blown after the two witnesses die after their 3 1/2 years of ministry and after they themselves rise. The we read:


    The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of the L-rd and His Christ and He shall raign forever.” Rev. 11.15


    And then the elders fall down and say:


    We give thanks to Thee, L-rd G-d Almighty, Who art and Who wast, that Thou hast taken Thy great power and begun to reign, The nations raged, but They wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding They servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Thy Name both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” 17-18

    This is a post trib rapture not a pretrib rapture whatever other texts seem to imply elsewhere. This particular one is crystal clear. Further, there is no evidance that once we are taken up to join Him in the clouds, we will not come down with Him again as well. Indeed its highly probable given what the angles said in Acts after Christ was taken up, 1.11, He will return the same way and the elders state: “Thou hast taken Thy great power and begun to reign,” .

    Thus even if it appears these two events are unconnected, John made it very clear they are not. Of course this could be why Paul stated it was a mystery which could be why what seems so obvious to some is so hard for others to understand.

    However please consider, who do you think will suffer more if they are wrong? Those who believe as we do, He coming after the Tribluation and who then prepare their hearts to go through the tribulation and then are raised before it; or those who assume the pritrib rapture based on those arguments given in that study, who then find themselves in the Tribulation unprepared?
     
  4. Richard T

    Richard T Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to explain your position. You made a good point of I Cor 15. However, I did find this response to this objection in a word study which does seem to make sense.

    "sálpigx; gen. sálpiggos, fem. noun. A trumpet (1 Cor. 14:8; Rev. 1:10; 4:1; 8:2, 6, 13; 9:14). As announcing the approach or presence of God (Heb. 12:19 [cf. Ex. 19:13, 16, 19; 1 Kings 1:34, 39]), or the final advent of the Messiah (Matt. 24:31). In 1 Cor. 15:52 the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4:16, "the trumpet of God" [a.t.], which means a trumpet which sounds by command of God; 1 Sam. 13:3; 2 Kings 12:13).

    The trumpets in Scripture are of great significance in eschatology in determining when the rapture of the church takes place (1 Thess. 4:13-18). This involves the question of whether the mention of the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52, simply referred to as "the trumpet" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the same as the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:11-15. Some assume that these trumpets are identical and thus presume that the rapture of the church will take place at the time of the occurrence of the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. This seventh trumpet is in the middle or toward the latter part of the seven-year tribulation period, i.e., Daniel's prophetic seventieth week (Dan. 9:25-27).

    The contexts of the passages make it clear that not all references to trumpets in Scripture describe the same event nor are all the trumpets sounded for the same purpose. The trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is mentioned in association with the resurrection of believers. Two events are described as taking place. The first is the resurrection of the believers who had died (v. 16). Immediately following this, the believers who are alive at that time will be raptured (1 Thess. 4:17). According to 1 Corinthians 15:52, all believers, both the dead and living, will be changed at this time. This changing process will be simultaneous with the resurrection. The trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 deals entirely with believers and their resurrection and change. The seven trumpets of Revelation, however, deal with God's demonstration of wrath and judgment on unbelievers. It has nothing to do with the last trumpet for the church, for believers of the dispensation of grace. Believers are raptured from the earth because God did not appoint believers unto wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).

    The rapture is said to be at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52), but the last trumpet is not to be equated with the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. The word for "last" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not hústerē <G5305>, hindermost, final or closing, but eschátē <G2078>, the latest, not in the process of time but pertaining to the events spoken of. This trumpet then is not necessarily the final trumpet. Also, the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 is not designated as the last trumpet although numerically it is the last in a series of seven. The trumpet of Revelation 11:15 is only the last of seven trumpets spelling the judgments of God and is to be followed by the seven bowls of Revelation 15; 16.

    In Matt. 24:31 the Lord speaks of God sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. They shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is not called the last trumpet, yet it follows the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24:29. It concerns the elect of the Tribulation period who responded to God's heavenly witnesses of Revelation 7. This is actually the last trumpet although not called such.

    Deriv.: salpízō <G4537>, to sound a trumpet."
    Source: The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament.

    As to whether a rapture believer will persevere less than someone expecting the tribulation, is a reasonable hypothesis, though untested. I think most pre-trib believers know there is a possibility they might be in part or even all of the tribulation. Anyone with Jesus truly as Lord should be able to adjust and do the best they can. It is not like we will have a choice, we just will either go sooner or later. I'm guessing the pre-trib rapture idea is better-suited for evangelism since it is more sudden and unexpected.
     
  5. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    The "rapture" is really the Last Saints being "changed"
    it is shown here in 1 Co 15


    1Co 15:5155
    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all
    be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
    for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
    and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
    and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall
    have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
    then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed
    up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Which plainly, indisputably; happens after the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Only then is Death no more. Revelation 21:4
     
  7. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    But, of course, the resurrection and the "changing" of the
    Last Saints on earth happens AFTER the Millennium because
    the Millennium is the church age... it started at the Cross when
    Satan is "bound" and it ENDS when the "testimony" of the
    Two Witnesses is finished (the Great Tribulation is finished)
    and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
    begins. At the END of the Great Tribulation, AFTER the
    "Season and Time"... THEN the Lord Returns to fulfill the
    resurrection and the "changing" of the Last Saints and
    to throw Satan and Death into the Lake of Fire.

    Your problem is you have NO IDEA when Satan was "bound"
    or when he was "loosened" [at the 1st Woe of the Rev Beast...
    shown in Rev 9:1]


    Your problem is you do not understand the Gospel.
    It was ALWAYS part of the Gospel that Satan would be
    "bound" during the Great Tribulation so as to not frustrate
    all the "lost sheep" from being found and saved.

    .
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Really this is not difficult:
    This all happens when the Seventh Trumpet sounds:
    The Seventh Trumpet is the SAME EVENT as the Third Woe.

    If you do not understand that Satan is "loosened" at the START
    of the First Woe/5th Trumpet [Rev 9:1] then, of course, you
    will be confused about the chronology or the end-of-the-world.

    .
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Satan is not bound until Jesus Returns. Revelation 21:1-3
    Any idea that he is before then is another of Satan's lies. Obviously Satan is active during the GT. Revelation 13:2-4
    The 'lost sheep' are gathered into all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event. Ezekiel 34:11-16
    Weird stuff!
    Like to play shuffle Revelation, don't you?
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you saying Satan is not bound in any way during this time?

    Do we have any power at all to resist Satan?

    Should Satan be running our families, or do we have some power over Satan through the Cross?

    Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
    Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
    Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
    Mar 6:10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
    Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
    Mar 6:13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.


    Do you think you can bind Satan with a steel chain?

    Mar 5:1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
    Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
    Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
    Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

    .
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Of course we do; the Name of Jesus shoos him off.
    But Satan is able to deceive those who allow it. 1 Peter 5:8-9
    The angels with Jesus will do it. Revelation 21:1-2

    Why do you ask such questions, the scriptures are quite clear.
    Your posts seem designed to trap and confuse.
     
  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    Dogs in the Bible are demonic. You hit the nail on the head. Satan wants all to be deceived. Just put the church asleep for the next 1006 years, then the world will end. I Satan will be God!
     
  13. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Satan is not bound until Jesus Returns. Revelation 21:1-3


    The Lord's Return is shown in chapter 6 and chapter 11
    and chapter 18 and chapter 19... you need to understand
    that Revelation is NOT shown in chronological order.


    Any idea that he is before then is another of Satan's lies. Obviously Satan is active during the GT. Revelation 13:2-4


    Yes... Satan is active during the GT and Revelation because
    he is "loosened" from the Pit in Rev 9:1 which is the FIRST WOE
    and the Fifth Trumpet.

    So Satan is active during the 1st Woe and Fifth Trumpet
    and he is active during the 2nd Woe and Sixth Trumpet
    but he is destroyed BEFORE the end of the 2nd Woe.


    I said:
    This all happens when the Seventh Trumpet sounds:
    The Seventh Trumpet is the SAME EVENT as the Third Woe.



    You said:
    Weird stuff!
    Like to play shuffle Revelation, don't you?


    The BIBLE SAYS:
    (clearly the Bible agrees with me and not you...
    unless the Bible plays shuffle)



    Rev 11:14-15
    The second woe is past; and, behold,
    the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    You said:
    The 'lost sheep' are gathered into all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event. Ezekiel 34:11-16



    The BIBLE SAYS the lost sheep are gathered HERE:


    Mat 24:30-31
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
    and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see
    the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    Mar 13:26-27
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds
    with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels,
    and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from
    the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven
    .



    You said
    The 'lost sheep' are gathered into all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event. Ezekiel 34:11-16



    You clearly do not understand the Great Commission
    (which did NOT happen after the Sixth Seal... you ADDED THAT
    in your private interpretation) Here is what the BIBLE SAYS
    about gathering the "lost sheep"



    Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto
    the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Luk_15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    Luk_15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.


    Keras... you clearly have an obsession with the Jews.
    Here is what JESUS said about the Jews after they were
    Judged to be unworthy.



    Mat 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you,
    The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you,
    and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Mat 21:45
    And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
    they perceived that he spake of them.


    .
     
  14. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    It does not matter either way if ALL are prepared. Does any not think that escaping the mark of the beast is going to fail. Those who escape the mark will be killed by the sword in the mouth of Christ. The only way post -trib people are going to prepare is get their head chopped off. What protection is guaranteed? Will the angels be running a boot leg food run in and out of heaven? All sources of nourishment will be under Satan's control. What part of total control is not understood?
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Have the wicked angels already been bound in some way in the scripture below?


    2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


    Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


    Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?

    Why is the beast "ascending" from the pit in Revelation 11:7?

    .
     
  16. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Since you mention the "mark of the Beast", can you DEFINE
    what that represents?

    ,
     
  17. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    The Beast ascending from the Pit in Rev 11:7 is the
    same as Satan being loosened in Rev 9. Revelation
    is not chronological. This is easily shown by the fact
    that the Revelation Beast is shown being destroyed
    in Rev 6 and Rev 11 and Rev 18 and Rev 19.

    The Beast ascending in Rev 11 happens after the testimony
    of the Two Witnesses if finished. The loosening of Satan also
    occurs after the Great Commission is finished and all the elect
    have been saved. It is only then that the Holy Spirit that restrains
    [2 Thes 2:2-3] can be removed and Satan can be loosened and
    the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] can begin.

    Both Rev 9:1 and Rev 11:7 are talking about the same event...
    Satan being loosened to attack the Last Saints during the Great
    Tribulation. Here is another reference to the same event.

    Rev 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war
    with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,
    and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    .
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You missed the most important verse;
    John 10:14-16....there are other sheep of Mine .... There will be one flock, one Shepherd.
    Christians and the remnant of the Jews will be gathered into all of the holy Land, soon after all of that area is cleared and cleansed by the Sixth Seal Day of cloud, as prophesied by - Ezekiel 34:11-16, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 35:1-10, Zechariah 8:1-8, +
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Nobody can come to salvation without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


    Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?



    Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.



    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


    The Holy Spirit is the master teacher in the New Covenant, based on the verse above and John 14:26.

    .
     
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  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    It is the expiration date of all work and labor on earth. That was Adam's punishment, the sweat of the brow. The mark comes out on the brow, after God says, time shall be no more. It marks the end of the 6000 year punishment with a cursed brand fully displayed on all those who choose not to be found in the Lamb's book of life. They follow Satan as his disciples in Solidarity against God. The ultimate labor union.
     
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