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The Rapture!

LastSeven

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Vinny,



I did, but as Jesus said............."let him who has ears, hear"

Frankie
PS

THE GT is 3 1/2 years in duration
Christ comes at it's finish and we are resurrected and the wicked are punished.
This Coming is before the Mill...Rev 19, then Rev 20



2 Thess 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7


And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8


In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9


Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10


When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

KJV

"That Day" is premill period. Believe it or not!


The only thing that points to that day being pre-mill is the composition of the book of Revelation. If you read the chapters sequentialy, which is the natural tendency of course, then it will appear as though that day is pre-mill. Because first it talks about that day, and then it talks about the millennium.

That is why the vast majority of believers agree with you, and that is why I also used to agree with you.

But there are specific scriptures that actually tell us the opposite. Combine that with an easy explanation for the way Revelation is written and I have to say that the scriptures that tell us about the timing carry a lot more weight than the confusing composition of Revelation.

You have evidence on both sides of this debate. If you seriously consider the evidence on both sides equally, and with an honest desire for the truth, as I have done, you will see that the evidence on my side of the debate is simply much stronger.

As I said, the only evidence in your camp is the composition of Revelation. I've got actual scripture that ties the timing of one event to the timing of another.


 
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Zadok7000

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Yes, because it's not there. If it's not there, then yes, his pastor has told him something that isn't true.

Consider this. Chapter 40 details the Gates leading into the Inner Court - where Jesus Himself will be (the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever).

Chambers around each gate = 1 reed long + 1 reed broad + 5 cubits + 1 reed for the threshold = 8
Porch of each gate = 8 cubits
South Gate = 8 steps
East Gate = 8 steps
North Gate = 8 steps
In the Inner Court, 8 tables for sacrifice
 
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J

Junebug28

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Consider this. Chapter 40 details the Gates leading into the Inner Court - where Jesus Himself will be (the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever).

Chambers around each gate = 1 reed long + 1 reed broad + 5 cubits + 1 reed for the threshold = 8
Porch of each gate = 8 cubits
South Gate = 8 steps
East Gate = 8 steps
North Gate = 8 steps
In the Inner Court, 8 tables for sacrifice

There are more 6's, 7's, 25's, 50's and 100's than there are 8's. Therefore, the new temple in Ezekiel is certainly not based on 8's as was the claim. See for yourself:





5And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.


6Then came he unto the gate which looketh toward the east, and went up the stairs thereof, and measured the threshold of the gate, which was one reed broad; and the other threshold of the gate, which was one reed broad.


7And every little chamber was one reed long, and one reed broad; and between the little chambers were five cubits; and the threshold of the gate by the porch of the gate within was one reed.


8He measured also the porch of the gate within, one reed.


9Then measured he the porch of the gate, eight cubits; and the posts thereof, two cubits; and the porch of the gate was inward.


10And the little chambers of the gate eastward were three on this side, and three on that side; they three were of one measure: and the posts had one measure on this side and on that side.


11And he measured the breadth of the entry of the gate, ten cubits; and the length of the gate, thirteen cubits.


12The space also before the little chambers was one cubit on this side, and the space was one cubit on that side: and the little chambers were six cubits on this side, and six cubits on that side.


13He measured then the gate from the roof of one little chamber to the roof of another: the breadth was five and twenty cubits, door against door.


14He made also posts of threescore cubits, even unto the post of the court round about the gate.


15And from the face of the gate of the entrance unto the face of the porch of the inner gate were fifty cubits.


16And there were narrow windows to the little chambers, and to their posts within the gate round about, and likewise to the arches: and windows were round about inward: and upon each post were palm trees.
17Then brought he me into the outward court, and, lo, there were chambers, and a pavement made for the court round about: thirty chambers were upon the pavement.


18And the pavement by the side of the gates over against the length of the gates was the lower pavement.
19Then he measured the breadth from the forefront of the lower gate unto the forefront of the inner court without, an hundred cubits eastward and northward.

20And the gate of the outward court that looked toward the north, he measured the length thereof, and the breadth thereof.
21And the little chambers thereof were three on this side and three on that side; and the posts thereof and the arches thereof were after the measure of the first gate: the length thereof was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.


22And their windows, and their arches, and their palm trees, were after the measure of the gate that looketh toward the east; and they went up unto it by seven steps; and the arches thereof were before them.


23And the gate of the inner court was over against the gate toward the north, and toward the east; and he measured from gate to gate an hundred cubits.


24After that he brought me toward the south, and behold a gate toward the south: and he measured the posts thereof and the arches thereof according to these measures.
25And there were windows in it and in the arches thereof round about, like those windows: the length was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.


26And there were seven steps to go up to it, and the arches thereof were before them: and it had palm trees, one on this side, and another on that side, upon the posts thereof.
27And there was a gate in the inner court toward the south: and he measured from gate to gate toward the south an hundred cubits.


28And he brought me to the inner court by the south gate: and he measured the south gate according to these measures;
29And the little chambers thereof, and the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, according to these measures: and there were windows in it and in the arches thereof round about: it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad.


30And the arches round about were five and twenty cubits long, and five cubits broad.


31And the arches thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof: and the going up to it had eight steps.


32And he brought me into the inner court toward the east: and he measured the gate according to these measures.
33And the little chambers thereof, and the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, were according to these measures: and there were windows therein and in the arches thereof round about: it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad.


34And the arches thereof were toward the outward court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.


35And he brought me to the north gate, and measured it according to these measures;
36The little chambers thereof, the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, and the windows to it round about: the length was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.


37And the posts thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.


38And the chambers and the entries thereof were by the posts of the gates, where they washed the burnt offering.
39And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
40And at the side without, as one goeth up to the entry of the north gate, were two tables; and on the other side, which was at the porch of the gate, were two tables.

41Four tables were on this side, and four tables on that side, by the side of the gate; eight tables, whereupon they slew their sacrifices.

42And the four tables were of hewn stone for the burnt offering, of a cubit and an half long, and a cubit and an half broad, and one cubit high: whereupon also they laid the instruments wherewith they slew the burnt offering and the sacrifice.
43And within were hooks, an hand broad, fastened round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the offering.
44And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singers in the inner court, which was at the side of the north gate; and their prospect was toward the south: one at the side of the east gate having the prospect toward the north.
45And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house.
46And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him.
47So he measured the court, an hundred cubits long, and an hundred cubits broad, foursquare; and the altar that was before the house.


48And he brought me to the porch of the house, and measured each post of the porch, five cubits on this side, and five cubits on that side: and the breadth of the gate was three cubits on this side, and three cubits on that side. 49The length of the porch was twenty cubits, and the breadth eleven cubits, and he brought me by the steps whereby they went up to it: and there were pillars by the posts, one on this side, and another on that side.
 
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chalkstc

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Vinny,

As I said, the only evidence in your camp is the composition of Revelation. I've got actual scripture that ties the timing of one event to the timing of another.

No, you have a interpretation and it is in error.......................


Matt 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

KJV

Where do you see any angels or rewards according to works in Rev 20 after the mill? You only see judgment according to works and the second death.

The second death means they died once already. We are not appointed to this second death, only the wicked are. we are written in the book of life, they are not.

You ought to go back to your original view. you were right then and wrong now.

by the way, The REV is not completely chronological.

Frankie
 
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Zadok7000

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There are more 6's, 7's, 25's, 50's and 100's than there are 8's.

I know. I re-read all 4 chapters last night because of this thread. I have no idea who anyone's pastor is, just thought it was interesting. The point is comparing it to the Temple of Solomon. There were no 8 steps or 8 tables, etc in the previous physical temples. The new dimensions described in Ezekiel will cover the entire city of Jerusalem.
 
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Hi Friend!!!! :wave:

I don't get that from reading revelation tho, I get one group of 144k male virgins from Israel which I think is the Bride, and then a great multitude that no man can number that came out of the great tribulation, which I believe is all of the other believers that remained faithful to the end.

I've read it over and over again, that's exactly what I read.
The only way to be saved during the tribulation is to be martyred for your faith. The 144,000 are the pure decendents of Abraham (&Sarah) This kind of purity is very unusual and is clearly the work of God. Even just adoption can water down the family DNA and keep it from being pure. All the more to have 12,000 decendents from each of his 12 sons. They have the genetic markers for two or three of them already.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The only way to be saved during the tribulation is to be martyred for your faith. The 144,000 are the pure decendents of Abraham (&Sarah) This kind of purity is very unusual and is clearly the work of God. Even just adoption can water down the family DNA and keep it from being pure. All the more to have 12,000 decendents from each of his 12 sons. They have the genetic markers for two or three of them already.
Not true.
Those that endure to the end will be saved, who repent and believe in His name, and they will enter into the kingdom of God on earth -the millennial Sabbath- to populate the nearly empty earth with the sons of God for the millennial kingdom and so that there can be the promised second harvest ingathering of sons of God from the earth [typed in Tabernacles].
All the seed of Jacob are "pure jews", through the male line, and God knows where they are and will not leave one seed of Jacob in the Gentile nations, as He says in His Word, but will gather them all out and bring them to the wilderness for judgment, as He says in His Word, and the rebels he will cast into the fire and the righteous He will grant the Everlasting Covenant of Life with, and they will enter into the millennial reign to populate the earth along with the sheep Gentiles; who likewise enter into the Covenant of Life and enter the kingdom of God prepared from the beginning, to populate the earth with the sons of God for the second and last ingathering harvest of earth.
 
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POSTIOS

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Correct. I think the time that Jesus warned us about comes after the millennium, just before the day of the Lord. Just before his everlasting kingdom begins.



No. I do not think we are currently in the millennium. I think the millennium is an actual 1000 year period that will complete our seven thousand year age on this earth. The last one thousand years is our Sabbath. Our time of rest. The time that Satan is in prison.

Note: I do not believe the millennium is God's kingdom on earth because his kingdom is everlasting. The millennium is not.

I believe that the millennium period will begin soon. Then to be followed by:

1. A brief tribulation period.
2. The second resurrection.
3. Judging.
4. New heaven and earth.
5. God's everlasting kingdom.

And everybody lived happily ever after.
Hi. I am trying to understand your position. I do not discount it, but it is not what I currently believe.

So, when is the first resurrection in your timetable?

Isn't this soon coming Millennium a time in which the beheaded ones (of the first resurrection) reign?
When are/were they beheaded assuming that the Millennium is close at hand?
 
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J

Junebug28

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I know. I re-read all 4 chapters last night because of this thread. I have no idea who anyone's pastor is, just thought it was interesting. The point is comparing it to the Temple of Solomon. There were no 8 steps or 8 tables, etc in the previous physical temples. The new dimensions described in Ezekiel will cover the entire city of Jerusalem.


Yeah, it's huge!

Given all the destructive earthquakes described in Revelation, Zechariah, etc that will happen during the time of wrath, it doesn't look like Ezekiel's temple is going to be built until after Christ's return.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Yeah, it's huge!

Given all the destructive earthquakes described in Revelation, Zechariah, etc that will happen during the time of wrath, it doesn't look like Ezekiel's temple is going to be built until after Christ's return.
I have an opinion that it will not be built upon the temple Mount, but upon Mt Zion of the North, which is Mount Hermon and the highest point in Israel
That is the place where Jesus was transfigured, and where the watcher angels descended from heaven to earth at, and where their seat of authority was. Before the flood, it was called "The Land of Dan", meaning the land of the Judges -they are the Watchers.
The source for the Jordan flows from there, as the brook Arnon/Oath, corresponding to, and a parable of, the stream flowing from the threshold of the altar in Ezekiel, for the River of Life.


Psa 133:3 As the dew of Hermon, [and as the dew] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [even] life for evermore.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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How big is the new Jerusalem?
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

The New Jerusalem has no temple, for the LORD God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple thereof.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The millennial temple is built and used because the Oracle of it will not be fulfilled until the last harvest is ingathered and the heavens and earth are regenerated.
The same for the third temple. Israel must build their temple when they have their land back. It is God's command to the nation bearing His name to build the temple and keep Moses until all is fulfilled exactly, as it is oracled and as Israel, the Namesake people of the New Man name, rehearse.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Your talking about the Hebrews, I am talking about the Gentiles who were "left behind" and did not make the rapture.
Jews and Gentiles who remain after the rapture and who repent and believe in the name of the Son of Man -God in flesh will have to endure to the end to be saved.
 
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LastSeven

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Vinny,

No, you have a interpretation and it is in error.......................

Matt 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

KJV

Where do you see any angels or rewards according to works in Rev 20 after the mill? You only see judgment according to works and the second death.

The second death means they died once already. We are not appointed to this second death, only the wicked are. we are written in the book of life, they are not.

You ought to go back to your original view. you were right then and wrong now.

by the way, The REV is not completely chronological.

Frankie

Rewards are given on the day of judgment as per 2 Timothy 4:8​

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

As you know, judgment is made based on works. The righteous judge judges our works and so hands out rewards and punishment based on those works. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

And I don't know why you keep bringing up the second death. I never said any Christians have to suffer the second death. We are resurrected after the millennium to live and reign with Christ in his everlasting Kingdom. That's what I've been saying all along. Does that sound like the second death to you?
 
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LastSeven

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The new dimensions described in Ezekiel will cover the entire city of Jerusalem.

very mysterious ... :confused:

If this is correct then I don't see how this could possibly be an actual third temple being built on earth.
 
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LastSeven

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Hi. I am trying to understand your position. I do not discount it, but it is not what I currently believe.

So, when is the first resurrection in your timetable?

Isn't this soon coming Millennium a time in which the beheaded ones (of the first resurrection) reign?
When are/were they beheaded assuming that the Millennium is close at hand?

Thanks for trying to understand. Most people try to discredit.

The first resurrection marks the start of the millennium. The martyrs reign with Christ during the millennium, but notice it does not say that they reign on earth.

And because Acts 3:21 says that Jesus will stay in heaven until the time of the restoration of all things, it makes sense that they stay in heaven during the millennium and reign with him in heaven during that time.

I think the beheaded ones include those who have been beheaded for Christ since the very beginning. I guess John the Baptist would be included in that group.

I think the millennium is the last one thousand of a seven thousand year age for us on this earth. Seeing as how we have approximately six thousand years behind us already, this last one thousand will probably start very soon.
 
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