The Rapture!

[Junebug28]

I guess my question now is,
what event in the bible, shows the 1st resurrection.
Do you think that there is not an event seen by msses.

Where is the difficulty in understanding this?

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

That describes people who are given authority to judge. Next, we see those who are judged.


and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Why is it difficult for people to understand exactly who those people who are being judged and resurrected and rewarded are? It says these people are the ones who do not worship the beast or take the mark and die believing in Jesus. There is a narrow window of time, 1260 days to be precise, when people actually do that.




5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The rest of the dead is described at the end of Revelation 20. The only people resurrected at the beginning of the millennium are those who die during the time of wrath, refusing to worship the beast! They are judged by the church, who is of course, already with Jesus.


6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


And that is a great reward indeed- to be judged as worthy, not to escape all these things because that moment has long since passed by this point, but to be judged by their works of dying in belief of Christ, refusing to worship another - and allowed to be included into the same reward as the church!

 

[Zadok7000]

very mysterious ...

If this is correct then I don't see how this could possibly be an actual third temple being built on earth.

If it is talking about about physical building, it won't be here until Christ returns and not before, for sure.

 

[POSTIOS]

Junebug28, it was a hypothetical question to LastSeven, not my belief.
(not that I agree with you or him).

I think I understand his position, upon reflection, except for one detail.

LastSeven believes that the Tribulation follows the Millennium. But the ones that do not take the mark of the beast in the time/times/half a time, are reiging in the Millennium. That IMO is what is wrong with LastSeven's interpretation.

 

[LastSeven]

Junebug28, it was a hypothetical question to LastSeven, not my belief.
(not that I agree with you or him).

I think I understand his position, upon reflection, except for one detail.

LastSeven believes that the Tribulation follows the Millennium. But the ones that do not take the mark of the beast in the time/times/half a time, are reiging in the Millennium. That IMO is what is wrong with LastSeven's interpretation.

I did address this in another thread, which you may not have had a chance to see yet.

But basically, I do not believe that the mark of the beast is limited to 3.5 years. (The Bible never says it's limited to 3.5 years) The mark of the beast is around before the millennium, and again after because it is the mark of Satan's kingdom.

 

[LastSeven]

I guess my question now is,
what event in the bible, shows the 1st resurrection.
Do you think that there is not an event seen by msses.

msses?

 

[POSTIOS]

lol, small keyboard, bad typer. masses.

 

[LastSeven]

Oh, sorry. Reading it back now I should've figured that out.

The multitude at the sixth seal is the first resurrection.

I don't think the first resurrection will be an event witnessed by the masses because I think the resurrection happens in heaven, not on earth.

However, I suspect that the transition into the millennium (which happens at the same time) will be noticeable somehow. I hope anyway. I guess we won't know until we get there.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...
I don't think the first resurrection will be an event witnessed by the masses because I think the resurrection happens in heaven, not on earth...

It will be as visible on earth as the First of Firstfruits resurrection was, when Jesus rose form the dead and raised that "first of firstfruits offering" with Himself, who came out of their graves and walked about the city and were seen of many before they were taken by the risen LORD, mid morning on the first, first day of the week after Passover, to fulfill that feast.
At the time of the first resurrection when the dead come out of their graves, bodily changed to the New Man image, and the living and remaining ones are changed and rise to meet them in the air [at the door of the heavnely temple, which is the Oracle fulfilled of Numbers 10:1-7, or 10, and seen in Isaiah 26:19-21], they will not hang around walking about the City and be seen of many, after the change, but the graves will open, the bodies will come out [ashes will dissappear ], the elements of the dead and dissolved bodies of all the righteous who ever lived and died in righteous faith in grace will be assembled in metamorphosed to the New Man image form, and the world will know that the graves were opened, and the living and remaining congregation of YHWH on earth [the half of the professing "virgins"] are gone from the midst of the world.

Enoch wrote of that "rapture" which is the "laqach" of the Church, in Hebrew, and which is the time of the "change to glory", in his parables, chapter 50, before the tribulation and he tells what happens to those who "see it and repent" and "believe int he name of the Son of Man".

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#50
We Shall Be Changed
50And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners [the tribulation].
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.
3They shall have no honour [they do not get the change to glory, but they do become redeemed saints] through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.
4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him [the result of the tribulation and the wrath poured out upon all the world].
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

 

[LastSeven]

It will be as visible on earth as the First of Firstfruits resurrection was, when Jesus rose form the dead and raised that "first of firstfruits offering" with Himself, who came out of their graves and walked about the city and were seen of many before they were taken by the risen LORD, mid morning on the first, first day of the week after Passover, to fulfill that feast.
At the time of the first resurrection when the dead come out of their graves, bodily changed to the New Man image, and the living and remaining ones are changed and rise to meet them in the air [at the door of the heavnely temple, which is the Oracle fulfilled of Numbers 10:1-7, or 10, and seen in Isaiah 26:19-21], they will not hang around walking about the City and be seen of many, after the change, but the graves will open, the bodies will come out [ashes will dissappear ], the elements of the dead and dissolved bodies of all the righteous who ever lived and died in righteous faith in grace will be assembled in metamorphosed to the New Man image form, and the world will know that the graves were opened, and the living and remaining congregation of YHWH on earth [the half of the professing "virgins"] are gone from the midst of the world.

Enoch wrote of that "rapture" which is the "laqach" of the Church, in Hebrew, and which is the time of the "change to glory", in his parables, chapter 50, before the tribulation and he tells what happens to those who "see it and repent" and "believe int he name of the Son of Man".

I don't think this resurrection can be compared to the resurrection at Jesus' crucifixion because at that time, those bodies came to life but they were not changed into incorruptible bodies. It was a different kind of resurrection so I don't think it's a good comparison.

At the end times resurrections "we will be changed", just as Enoch says.

"On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners" This could be referring to the deeds of the sinners being recorded in "the books" that are opened on judgment day.

This piece in Enoch is all about the day of resurrection and judgment. Not tribulation. Two verses later it says that He is righteous in His judgment. Then it says the unrepentent will perish before Him, which to me means being thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyways, I still don't think it will be an event witnessed by the people on earth, but on the other hand there's got to be some kind of "event" that marks the beginning of the millennium on earth. Some kind of indication that something has happened and something has changed.

Who knows. Maybe this resurrection will be visible. That would be kinda cool.

 

[POSTIOS]

Oh, sorry. Reading it back now I should've figured that out.

The multitude at the sixth seal is the first resurrection.

I cannot find a multitude in the 6th seal. If you mean chapter 7, then I guess you do not view chapter 7 as parenthetical (as I do), and instead as part of the 6th seal (as I do not).

I don't think the first resurrection will be an event witnessed by the masses because I think the resurrection happens in heaven, not on earth.

O I C. Resurrection is based on the promise that God raise the dead back to life here on earth again. Not in heaven.

However, I suspect that the transition into the millennium (which happens at the same time) will be noticeable somehow. I hope anyway. I guess we won't know until we get there.

I guess the point that I am making to you is that we will, because of all the signs that you believe are for post Millennium, and I believe are pre.

 

[LastSeven]

I cannot find a multitude in the 6th seal. If you mean chapter 7, then I guess you do not view chapter 7 as parenthetical (as I do), and instead as part of the 6th seal (as I do not).

You don't think the multitude is seen after breaking the sixth seal? Where do you think chapter 7 fits in the timeline?

O I C. Resurrection is based on the promise that God raise the dead back to life here on earth again. Not in heaven.

The new earth, not the old.

 

[Junebug28]

I did address this in another thread, which you may not have had a chance to see yet.

But basically, I do not believe that the mark of the beast is limited to 3.5 years. (The Bible never says it's limited to 3.5 years) The mark of the beast is around before the millennium, and again after because it is the mark of Satan's kingdom.

Lastseven, the mark of the beast is around when the beast is around. The beast is destroyed before the devil is bound.

When satan is loosed, it says he deceives people, they try to invade Israel but fire comes down and devours them.


Rev 20: 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[LastSeven]

Lastseven, the mark of the beast is around when the beast is around.

Yes. (but that is not limited to the time that the beast has authority. The beast is around even before it is given authority. Long before.)

The beast is destroyed before the devil is bound.

I don't think so. Again, I don't believe chapter 20 should be read as a continuation of chapter 19. The beast is destroyed at the end of tribulation period, after the millennium.

When satan is loosed, it says he deceives people, they try to invade Israel but fire comes down and devours them.

Yes.

 

[Super Kal]

when it comes to ch19 & 20, i see them as describing the same event, except one is more indepth than the other, and have different perspectives on that event

 

[POSTIOS]

You don't think the multitude is seen after breaking the sixth seal? Where do you think chapter 7 fits in the timeline?

I do not think that the seals are an ordered tinmeline at all,but more like what we read of in Mat 24.
And I think that Rev7 is an insert, showing the sealed firstfruits on earth and the firstfruits that have died already, in heaven. They get gathered together eventually.

The new earth, not the old.

The new earth is right here, on this rejuvinated planet, forever.

 

[razeontherock]

I have an opinion that it will not be built upon the temple Mount, but upon Mt Zion of the North, which is Mount Hermon and the highest point in Israel
That is the place where Jesus was transfigured, and where the watcher angels descended from heaven to earth at, and where their seat of authority was. Before the flood, it was called "The Land of Dan", meaning the land of the Judges -they are the Watchers.
The source for the Jordan flows from there, as the brook Arnon/Oath, corresponding to, and a parable of, the stream flowing from the threshold of the altar in Ezekiel, for the River of Life.


Psa 133:3 As the dew of Hermon, [and as the dew] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [even] life for evermore.

WOOT! Good Word, Sister

 

[yeshuasavedme]

WOOT! Good Word, Sister

Thanks -
but I also have an opinion that my opinion is not correct

 

[yeshuasavedme]

O

riginally Posted by Junebug28

When satan is loosed, it says he deceives people, they try to invade Israel but fire comes down and devours them.
​

Yes.

No.
That is a repeat attempt at ascending to heaven, like at the time of the tower of Babel. The City of God where the saints dwell is in the heights -the heavens- and is in that heavenly realm of earth that is called the immeasurable "breadth of the earth". Since Babel, apparently it is hidden from view to the inhabitants of earth who cannot see it with the same blindness that the men of Sodom could not see nor find the door of entry into Job's house all night long.
Before the flood, the gates of Eden were not hidden to the inhabitants of earth, as we can gather reading Enoch.
That veil will be destroyed when the heavens are opened and the wicked of the world see the LORD descending and cry out for the rocks to hide them.

 

[LastSeven]

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So again I say, yes. He will deceive the nations after he is released. His armies will surround Jerusalem, and he will be devoured by fire from heaven.

Why do you think this is describing a repeat attempt at ascending to heaven?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So again I say, yes. He will deceive the nations after he is released. His armies will surround Jerusalem, and he will be devoured by fire from heaven.

Why do you think this is describing a repeat attempt at ascending to heaven?

Yes, Gog/Magog is after the 1000 years.