The Rapture

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

jOHN 16:13-14 says that the H.S. will not speak of himself but Jesus

HE is apart of the Trinity so why does mary get involved and lifted up ?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

jOHN 16:13-14 says that the H.S. will not speak of himself but Jesus

HE is apart of the Trinity so why does mary get involved and lifted up ?

Lose one battle, start another, eh?

We don't believe Mary is divine. She is the Mother of God, and worth of honor.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Lose one battle, start another, eh?

We don't believe Mary is divine. She is the Mother of God, and worth of honor.

she is dead and doesn't hear you....

we pray to the Father and Christ is the go between

never lost you ignore scripture.............God's Word

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

she is dead and doesn't hear you....

This is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

we pray to the Father and Christ is the go between

This is another very common charge levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a meditor. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesites) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

Time to get out your Bible:

Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.

Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "hail, full of grace." Her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16-17 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1-2 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

 

[Spimman]

How about we start another discussion on Catholic Prayer to "Saints" or anything along those lines, and start back up with the Rapture...I am finding all the informative discussion and debate to be very interesting.
-Matt

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1st coming
Jesus on earth and died for sins came to save

Rapture
Believers alive and dead meet Christ in the clouds Romans 5:9,
1 thes 4:16-17 trumpt of God, 1 cor 15:51-53 last trump of God
Christ never touches earth..1 thes 5:1-15

tribulation begins rev 4-19 angels trump

2nd coming starts in Rev 19:11 comes to judge

back to subject

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

back to subject

This has already been addressed, go back and read the thread. Jesus comes back once and EVERY eye shall see him on that day.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

who saw him during the rapture? we meet him half way between here and the third heaven in a twinkling of an eye

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

speechless

 

[jessedance]

Ok.
Hey, only the bride of christ gets raptured. all other saints have to go through the tribulation and be maryterd for christ or take the mark o f the beast and loose their salvation. And actually only pentecostals will be raptured, baptise , unless they are spirit filled, which a few are, will not make the rapture but will at best wind up being wedding guests at the marriage feast of the Lamb. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

All believers up to the rapture are taken out......

that means that more people are saved during the tribulation




1st coming
Jesus on earth and died for sins ..for salvation

Rapture
Believers alive and dead meet Christ in the clouds Romans 5:9,
1 thes 4:16-17 trumpt of God, 1 cor 15:51-53 last trump of God
Christ never touches earth..1 thes 5:1-15

tribulation begins rev 4-19...comes to judge

2nd coming starts in Rev 19:11

 

[Angel4Truth]

Again a reminder when you check quotes , read them from the ENTIRE writing itself taking careful note of the translators notes for legitimacy instead of just reading the QUOTE . Always check the ENTIRE writing .

Wondering why this thread is being led away from the topic , arent mods to keep threads ON topic?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Note that the church is not mentioned past revelation 3 and that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church , but satan will be given the power to OVERCOME the saints during the tribulation , another clue that the church is NOT here then . God doesnt lie , if it cannot all be correlated , its not the proper interpretaion .

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"
Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

What's the source for the quote from St. Ephraem???

 

[Angel4Truth]

Ephraem the Syrian

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A. D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788).

"I esteem no man more happy than him, who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them." To this day, his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the sixteen-volume Post-Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English.

Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the pre-millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt Temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days.

The following section includes key passages from Ephraem's important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary
Ephraem's text :On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World

"1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...

"2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.... Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord .... "

3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere .... "

6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit ....

"7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire.... Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations ... then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which become three and a half years, 1260 days. "

8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth and there will be a great tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand "

10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints.... Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."

To summarize the key points in Ephraem's text on the last days: 1. Ephraem's manuscript lays out the events of the last days in chronological sequence. Significantly he began with the Rapture using the word "imminent," then, he described the Great Tribulation of three and a half years duration under the Antichrist's tyranny, followed by the second coming of Christ to earth with his saints to defeat the Antichrist. 2. Significantly, at the beginning of his treatise in Section 2, Ephraem used the word "imminent" to describe the Rapture occurring before the tribulation and the coming of the Antichrist. "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging." 3. He clearly described the pre-tribulation rapture: "Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." 4. He then gives the purpose of God rapturing the Church "before the tribulation" so that "they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Ephraem used the word "confusion" as a synonym for the tribulation period. 5. Ephraem described the duration of the "great tribulation" (the last half of the seven year tribulation period) in sections 7, 8 and 10 as follows: "forty-two months" and "three and a half years" and "1260 days." 6. He summarized: "There will be a great tribulation, as there has not been since people began to be upon the earth" and described the Mark of the Beast system. 7. He declared that Christ will come to the earth after the "three and a half years" tribulation period in Section 10: "And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets... will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty" Dr. Paul Alexander, perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church, concluded that Ephraem's text on The Antichrist taught that the Lord would supernaturally remove the saints of the Church from the earth is prior to the tribulations that is to come." Ephraem wrote that the saints will be "taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Dr. Alexander believed this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century but he concluded that it was derived from an original Ephraem manuscript (A.D. 373). other scholars, including the German editor Professor Caspari who wrote a German commentary on this Latin manuscript in 1890, believed that Ephraem's manuscript was written by the genuine Ephraem in A.D. 373. Professor Cameron Rhoades, professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, translated Ephraem's Latin text into English at the request Dr. Tommy Ice and Grant Geffrey

I believe the above is enough for clear context .

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

I believe so

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

different groups of believers ...hebrews 12:22-24

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

That quote comes from writings now attributed to Psuedo-Ephraem, an anonymous writer who drew extensively from Ephraem.

 

[R.E.Taet]

2 Thess 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 Thess 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thess 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for {it will not come} unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2 Thess 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Things to note, Our gathering together will not happen until the antichrist and the apostasy come. We see in the timeline given in the first three gospels, that a great tribulation will not occur until after the antichrist comes. We also see that in that sermon where Jesus said that He had told us of everything ahead of time (Mark 13:23.) And in that sermon, where all was told, there was not mention of a rapture before the tribulation.

Another thing to note is that we are warned not to be deceived about when Jesus will come and gather us. This seems to be a warning directed at this type of idea.