The Rapture

[JeffreyLloyd]

I saw that and I disagree. I believe when Jesus does come back "every eye shall see him."

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Jesus will not come twice. He will return once in glory and EVERY eye shall see him on that day. No secret rapture.

what secret rapture we know about it before it has happened its call God's word

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

what secret rapture we know about it before it has happened its call God's word

Or a misunderstanding of God's word.

Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 2:1-12 - these verses reject the premillenialism and mid-tribulation view because the rapture and the tribulation occur together.

Matt. 13:24-30; 36-43 - the wheat and weeds parable rejects the postmillenialism idea that the world will be Christianized before the end of time.

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

 

[Godzman]

Or a misunderstanding of God's word.

Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 2:1-12 - these verses reject the premillenialism and mid-tribulation view because the rapture and the tribulation occur together.

Matt. 13:24-30; 36-43 - the wheat and weeds parable rejects the postmillenialism idea that the world will be Christianized before the end of time.

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

like I stated earlier, the catholics don't believe in the Rapture. It is plain to see, that they believe we will suffer through the tribulation.

also the Rapture view does not teach that we will see Christ, but that we will meet him in the air. The second coming is afterwards, but whatever you wanna believe.

The two witnesses, how come they need two witnesses in revelation if the whole church is here to be witnesses.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

like I stated earlier, the catholics don't believe in the Rapture. It is plain to see, that they believe we will suffer through the tribulation....

No we don't. Either did any other Christian up until 1800's. In 1830, a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism.

Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote:

"Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

As far as the millennium goes, as Catholics we agree with Saint Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term.

The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

catholic.com

 

[Godzman]

No we don't. Either did any other Christian up until 1800's. In 1830, a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism.

Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote:



As far as the millennium goes, as Catholics we agree with Saint Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term.

The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

catholic.com

the church became amillinialist because they were no longer persecuted and they saw persecution as a sign of the times, which it is but to be fair, no one really knows, the bible is clear, that in Revelation Christ will reign here on earth, literally, and satan will be bound, well amillinialists believe Satan is already bound right?

I believe that couldn't be true, because then there would be no power of satan on earth. The tribulation will take place and the church will be raptured aways, when I don't know, but the church will have no need of two witnesses if they are not taking up till after the tribluation, Christ is not physically coming to earth in the Rapture anyway.

Catholics are writing these books so people in their congregations wont fall away, and question the Church.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

....Catholics are writing these books so people in their congregations wont fall away, and question the Church.

Or it's because it's the job of the Church to teach and preach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Godzman]

Or it's because it's the job of the Church to teach and preach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

then why did the 4th century christians fall prey to pagan rituals, and institute them into the church. Constatine put in place things that Peter, paul, and the early christians would be appalled at.

Look to see if any of the early christians prayed to the saints or prayed to Mary, or built statues of her. They didn't and whenever you say church you mean the RCC, and I don't believe the RCC preaches the truth in full, some of it but not all of it.

 

[AngelAmidala]

Admin Hat On

Just a slight netiquette issue to clear up here. When one posts IN ALL CAPITALS LIKE THIS it is regarded as "yelling." And yelling on a messageboard is not a good thing. In fact, on some boards, posting in all capitals is cause for removal of your post and possibly being told by a staff member that you could be banned for that. Especially if you do it all the time.

I can understand the occasional slipup where by accident you hit "caps lock" instead of "tab" or "shift" because I've done it myself. However, each person is capable of going back and editing their posts to fix this problem.

I ask that you keep this in mind when you post. If you want to emphasize a point, use bold print or change your text color but DO NOT TYPE IN ALL CAPITALS BECAUSE I WILL MAKE YOU EDIT YOUR POST.



Any questions, direct them to my PM box.

Admin Hat Off

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...Look to see if any of the early christians prayed to the saints or prayed to Mary, or built statues of her. They didn't and whenever you say church you mean the RCC, and I don't believe the RCC preaches the truth in full, some of it but not all of it.

How about as early as 80AD? Note all the dates in bold:

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him in prayer" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).


Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).


Pectorius

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).



John Chrysostom

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).


Ambrose of Milan

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).


Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).


Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

 

[Godzman]

How about as early as 80AD? Note all the dates in bold:

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


[/B]

from him such intercession, they never prayed to the angels, and saints aren't angels anyway, ask the Lord is pretty clear.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

 

[Godzman]

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Origen had some unorthodox ideas, that was one of them

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

that seems pretty clear to me

 

[Philip]

from him such intercession, they never prayed to the angels,

The passage does not say that they prayed to the angel. It says that the angel helped Hermas.

and saints aren't angels anyway,

The Angels are saints.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

that seems pretty clear to me

It is quite clear. Unfortunately, you seem to confusing medation with intercession.

 

[Godzman]

The passage does not say that they prayed to the angel. It says that the angel helped Hermas.



The Angels are saints.



It is quite clear. Unfortunately, you seem to confusing medation with intercession.

Jesus makes intercession for us, and we should make intercession for others.

Mediator, medatation two different things, mediator, is are direct line to God, Jesus.

We can intercede for each other, we are all saints of course that was something that pagan culture in the early church changed

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Jesus makes intercession for us, and we should make intercession for others.

Mediator, medatation two different things, mediator, is are direct line to God, Jesus.

We can intercede for each other, we are all saints of course that was something that pagan culture in the early church changed

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

"The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked, but the prayer of the upright pleases him."

The LORD is far from the wicked - but he hears the prayer of the righteous.



James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

.... why.....

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Or a misunderstanding of God's word.

Matt. 24:24-31;

vs 21 then shall be a great tribulation..... context please

Mark. 13:24-27;

vs 24 after the tribulation


[/quote]2 Thess. 2:1-12 - these verses reject the premillenialism and mid-tribulation view because the rapture and the tribulation occur together.

Rapture[vs 3] first then tribulation[vs 7] after Holy spirit leaves[vs 7]

Matt. 13:24-30; 36-43 - the wheat and weeds parable rejects the postmillenialism idea that the world will be Christianized before the end of time.

Above please

Rev. 20:4 - this verse shows the millennium is the period of Christ's current reign with His saints in heaven and His rule through the Church. This view, which Protestants call "amillenialism," is consistent with the Catholic view. The rapture and the second coming will occur after Christ's reign and the end of the Church Militant on earth. There is thus no "rapture" that precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Rev 19:7-10 Marriage of chruch to Christ must have been in Heaven before fire and second coming.

Rev. 20:3; Matt. 12:29-30 - satan is currently bound during this millennium insofar as he cannot prevent the spreading of the Gospel.

Are you saying that God can't spread Gospel because Satan is stopping him...hahahaha did not God create Lucifer

Luke 10:17-18 - after the elders preached the Gospel, Jesus said He saw satan fall like lightning. Thus, satan is currently bound and cannot prevent us from evangelizing the world.

Why does God give us Eph 6:11-17 as defense to Satan if he is contained because he is not at this time!!!!!!

2 Peter 3:10-15 - in the meantime, we wait for the Lord's coming with zeal, avoiding sin, and being at peace, in the hope of our salvation.

2 Peter 3:8 One day is like a thousand years

 

[Angel4Truth]

Just a word to the wise , please look up for yourself the quotes that many catholic posters quote to verify their accuracy - many are shown to quote from obscure and many times fraudulent writings to make their points - so if one is apt to follow the quote , please verify them . Often youll find in the notes of the writing itself that the vast majority of theologians will not accept them as legitimate and why . Also check the writing itself for the context of the quote , Ive also found in a vast majority of cases too that the quotes often arent even speaking about the topic when context is checked .

Another thing I want to add is that I thought this thread was about the rapture not who prays to who anyway .

Here is a quote from an early Father on the rapture (also please remember untill the 5th century , the church held a premillenial veiw , they literally held for christs physical return and a 1000 year reign on earth , the RCC changed this teaching due to the splendor it came to know and confused it with peace just because the christians were knowing peace , because of Christian rule in the roman empire .

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"
Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373

Yes the earliest church believed in the rapture and the premillenial reign of Christ .

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Just a word to the wise , please look up for yourself the quotes that many catholic posters quote to verify their accuracy - many are shown to quote from obscure and many times fraudulent writings to make their points - so if one is apt to follow the quote , please verify them . Often youll find in the notes of the writing itself that the vast majority of theologians will not accept them as legitimate and why . Also check the writing itself for the context of the quote , Ive also found in a vast majority of cases too that the quotes often arent even speaking about the topic when context is checked .

Another thing I want to add is that I thought this thread was about the rapture not who prays to who anyway .

Here is a quote from an early Father on the rapture (also please remember untill the 5th century , the church held a premillenial veiw , they literally held for christs physical return and a 1000 year reign on earth , the RCC changed this teaching due to the splendor it came to know and confused it with peace just because the christians were knowing peace , because of Christian rule in the roman empire .

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"
Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373

Yes the earliest church believed in the rapture and the premillenial reign of Christ .

Please, look at my post (#50), I gave 25 quotes from Church fathers and i gave the source where you can go and read the quote yourself if you like!

And you have the nerve to say:

Just a word to the wise , please look up for yourself the quotes that many catholic posters quote to verify their accuracy...

You didn't even supply a souce for your one quote.