The "Rapture" potentially VERY CLOSE!! ~~ A View of Scripture and Current Events.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I dont have a microsloth, brother. I use an iMac. What is that program?

Unfortunately I have Windoze......couldn't afford a Mac

 

[zeke37]

Exactly!

Am I the only one who's noticed a revival of Faith in this land? Aren't most of us here in mourning over the loss of our country?

Sackcloth ... worn as a symbol of mourning or penitence

hi ....
there will be no rebuilt Jewish temple

 

[NightHawkeye]

Rather the Jews and Gentiles should just wait until these guys show up

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 11:3 and I shall be giving the two wintesses of Me, and they shall be prophesying days, thousand, two hundred, sixty, having been about-cast sackcloths

Exactly my point, LittleLamb. How will you recognize them?

 

[LBP]

In a very non-mocking, non-belittling and non-flaming way, and indeed with an abundance of good cheer and deep, deep respect, I would merely point out that by their fruitcakes you shall know them ...

Actually, I'm very partial to the eschatology that whomever happens to be the President of the United States at any given point in time is a good candidate to be the Beast. Very, very disappointed when this one failed to pan out, because the patented 666 Beast Identifier lit up like a Christmas tree when he was elected ...

CANDIDATES FOR THE ANTICHRIST​

The president of the United States of America​

[SIZE=+2]Whoever he is[/SIZE]. [SIZE=+1]It's a permanent Illuminati's vacancy[/SIZE]. If you think George W. Bush is a genuine reborn Christian, you should read what Jesus said: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them." (Mt.7:15-19)

Now, what are the fruits of this man? President Bush -- Bad Fruits versus Good Fruits

 

[zeke37]

I agree with a lot of what you have to say. Not everything. But I'll just focus on this. The church body of Revelation 12 is specifically protected by God.

Revelation 12: 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This specific group of believers is "in a protected area". They are protected from the face of the serpent. Satan attempts to "reach" this group, but cannot penetrate to reach the land that they are on. Therefore, Satan having been frustrated in his endeavor, turns away from them to go pursue and attack the rest of the Christians on earth he can reach -- those who are not in the protected area:

Revelation 12:15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The scripture in Revelation 18:1-4 shows us God establishing protection for a specific area and group of Christians. This is occurring at the time of the abomination of desolations. The evil of the people has become full so the cup of wrath has become full.

Hi...

ok so far...but all Christians in general are not protected....
only the elect are...(Luke21)
not all Christians are elect...only the ones that remain faithfull are.

Yet, this is not at the end of the 7 year period where the 666 beast kingdom is destroyed worldwide.

i disagree....

This specific land mass is burned with fire. There are witnesses outside of the land mass that see the burning of the land mass. Therefore, the timing coincides with the abomination of desolation.

many people think the A of D is a thing, like a statue
when it is an entity that is worshiped...not a thing...Satan himself worshiped

specific timing is not at isue here,
as the A of D will be worshiped for the latter 1/2 of the trib
right up till Christ literally Comes, and folks see the truth Coming...
instantly showing Who is Who, and who is not Who

We see God's activity in Divinely Intervening to protect this specific group of believers from the 666 beast system as God calls them to come out to be protected from plagues and set apart to God. I submit that this group of Christians who "hear the cry" to come out are the Christians who "make the rapture".

I agree....they are the 144,000 IMO

(there is another 7000 witnesses too,
the very elect who will work for Christ in the trib!)

The "rapture" is not "rapture" out of this world. Rather, even as Lot was removed to a protected area, these Christians are removed to a protected area. In fact, the glory of the Lord surrounding them "forms" their protection (see Psalm 91) as the land is burned and all evil is destroyed from the land.

sounds good to me,
but IMO those protected children will have been changed as 1Cor15 shows,
and thus physical harm cannot happen to them anymore

when the rapture happens, it will be a gathering together ON EARTH...
Christ ON EARTH

Satan is cast out of the land through the purification of the fire. That is why Satan cannot enter the land in Revelation 12.

Satan is bound 1000 years and loosed at the end of it
so the elect get to teach the rest (beguiled/seduced ones) the truth for 1000 years,
in their changed glorified bodies

The saints have arisen in full Kingdom power and authority in entire sanctification. What is "left" on the land is a Christian body in entire sanctification through Divine Intervention and special grace upon them empowering them to arise in that level sanctification.

if you said that this was the Millennial time, then I'd agree with you.
see Ezekiel 44 (Zadok)

Thus, then are on a land mass with specific borders that can be defined. The land is then healed from the burning, their borders are sealed against Satan, and they are thus protected in the Kingdom of Heaven come on earth for the latter 3-1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. They "made the rapture" and "become" thereby the body of Christians shown in Revelation 12.

I disagree...

the first 3 1/2 years is a political NWO power, (Rev13)
that is lead in spiritual places by Satan,
but that kingdom is led politically by the kings of the earth

after 3 1/2 years that world system fails...war me thinks!
(the time has been shortened for the elect's sake)
how ever long the trib's entirely is, this NWO fails at the 1/2 way point

the 2nd half of the 7 years
is actually led IN PERSON by the supernatural fallen angel Satan,
who is cast out of heaven for a short season....
in his very own supernatural fallen angel body
right at the trib's mid point

his appearance and arrival will fool the world,
and save the wounded world system.
they will think he is Christ (and all deity)
he has supernatural fallen angel powers
including the ability to do what we will preceive as miracles, and bringing peace.
his casting out will coincide with the 1/2 way point of the trib.

it'll be a huge church time for a while,
as he beguiles/seduces the potential bride of Christ



most of us here disagree on the specific timeline of events
for example

while Christ's departure from heaven is seen in Rev19,
His landing is already seen in Rev14.
and after that, the wrath of God is poured out in Rev16...

 

[justsurfing]

Daniel didn't know about the book of Revelation. Daniel was given various prophecies about the end days and was shown the wicked one will come from the east.

Daniel 8 uses the Greek area - so does Daniel 11.
Israel will be attacked from an eastern nation.

The only nation the little horn that undestand riddles can come from is a nation to the east of Israel.

He will wax great then in these directions :
south
east
and toward the pleasant land ) Israel

so Israel cannot be south or east of the beast's land

In Daniel 11 - Daniel was shown a time of the vile person and that begins in verse 21 - then the chapter ends without showing how the vile person goes down - as in dies -
The chapter ends with a story that was not finished in great detail - that is why Daniel wanted to know how the things end.

The chapter only went as far as to show how long the vile person has control over Jerusalem and chases the holy people.
The end of the chapter only goes as far as the end of the great tribulation - it ends at the time of the rapture of the church. But the beast is still living on and does what?
goes where?
These are the things that Daniel was curious about.
Daniel was told about a time of another 45 days. This time is when the vials of God's wrath will be poured. The vials will be poured out twice.
Once emptied - they will be filled up again.

Micah 7 refers to the Assyrian/ being shown marvellous/ things- according to the days of Israel coming out of Egypt.
So - does that link up with the 45 days of Exodus 16:1?
Is the Assyrian to be punished for 45 days?

At the end of the 45 days - blessed are those who wait and come to that day - as in they survived past the battle of Armageddon - and can now live on into the 1000 years reign of Jesus Christ on the earth.

Daniel was not to live on - he was to go and rest till the end.
Just as other saints - would do and had done - they went - they were not remaining on the earth till the end - but would go and rest.

Daniel 11 shows Daniel the time of the vile person coming out of the area of the Greek Empire. The USA was not part of that empire. Obama is not the man of sin. Obama can[t even solve an oil crisis. The little horn will understand riddles. He will speak great words. He will come from the east of Israel. He will be a king that was - and is not - by the time John was alive. He will be Nebuchadnezzar. That ancient king will return and finish the time that remains of the Jeremiah 25:11-12 prophecy for the Babylonian kings to rule the nations.

They have a total of 70 years.

Last time - used up only part of those years.

605 - 539 B.C.

Nebuchadnezzar to Cyrus

Darius ruled Babylon - put Daniel in with the lions
the later Cyrus took over Babylon and released the Jews
in his first year

Israel has yet to go back to Babylon and serve the rest of her time that she is to serve a Babyonian king in Babylon.
Rev. 18 shows the time when God will no longer hide His face from Israel and they will again be His people. The Jews will retun to Israel and get ready for the plagues to fall on the land of Babylon and those that folllowed the beast.

Compare Isiah 47 to Rev. 18 - both same pophecy about the land of the Chaldeans.

Vin, the Holy Spirit releases prophecy and released prophecy to Daniel. The Holy Spirit knows all. Daniel knew only in part. Certain things were not revealed to Daniel and will not be revealed until the time of the end.

The prophecy God gave to Daniel was a prophecy of the end. Daniel could not see all the prophecy. Daniel knew he saw through the glass darkly -- only in part although in the visions was the power of all truth of the events of the end.

You and I have the Spirit. But we can only know the power of the scripture in accordance with the release of the Spirit. Yet, as Christians as we discuss, the Spirit shows some of us different things than others. As we "put them together" -- so long as we are doing so in the living power of the Spirit -- we can gain from each other's revelation to both, each, all "see more of the larger picture".

I assure you that the Spirit has revealed to me that the USA is the nation represented in Revelation 18 and Revelation 12 for application as I've stated.

On that, I speak that which the Spirit reveals -- and now we wait to "see what happens". I have stated that 1/21/2009 was the most likely date for the beginning of the end days 7 year period. If so, then the date for the abomination of desolations is revealed to be 1260 days later. We will see the USA burn on the date God has planned. I cannot be 100% certain of the date. I've given the most likely date. However, I am 100% personally convinced of the Spirit regarding the destruction of America -- of the evil ones on the land -- which is truly God moving in Divine Intervention to protect the Christians who are prepared. They absolutely will rise to become the "nation" shown in Revelation 12 protected during the Great Tribulation.

What Christians think, often, is "Israel" in prophetic scripture related to the 7 year period is really the USA. We are the "second covenant Israel" and the "second covenant Zion" of the 7 year period. Israel of the Middle East is not instituted by God as a nation again, UNDER HIS ANOINTING, until the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Then, prophecies related to Israel can come to pass regarding God's protection of that Israel as a NATION. (Though 144,000 will be sealed from Israel -- the nation itself is not a "border nation" like the USA is a "bordered nation" protected as the spiritual Israel of Revelation 12 during the Great Tribulation.)

So, whatever is in the scripture relative to the Middle East Israel as a NATION -- will most likely occur following the 1000 year reign of Christ -- NOT leading into or a part of the 7 year apocalyptic period.

The vials of wrath poured out twice -- I would agree with. But, how I see them, you will see vials of wrath poured out upon the 666 beast system AFTER the 6th seal is opened when it is TIME for God's wrath to be released on the beast's system (this may be a 45 day period ~~ I will not state definitively ~~ but neither can I disprove this case ~~ so for me it is "open" and a "maybe").

However, the 7th vial of wrath will never be poured out until the very end. It is the wrath fire of Final Judgment and completely destroys the first creation, the first Heaven, and all evil. "7" is a number of perfection. To say that the vials are "refilled" I would say, that wrath is poured out on the 666 beast system... but not the 7th vial. The entire beast system is destroyed in carnage that creates an incredible pool of blood like a river. They are not burned up and destroyed.

It is at Final Armageddon that the 7th vial of wrath fire is poured out burning into annihilation Satan and all of his "army" along with the first earth and Heaven -- the entire first creation. The people of God are not "in" the first creation at that time. They are wholly in Christ. They are in new spiritual bodies and end up "returning with" Jesus Christ. The saints join Jesus in the air in new spiritual bodies and "return with" Jesus and the holy angels. Therefore, they are not in any whit OF the first creation in matter. So that is the "final rapture" in which saints gain new spiritual bodies.

However, at the opening of the 6th seal, we see the two witnesses who are the last martyrs of the Christian church of the 7 year period bodily resurrected and rising on the clouds. They are not "gaining new spiritual bodies in the twinkling of an eye". That is a bodily resurrection and not into spiritual bodies as it appears. The first creation remains throughout the 1000 year reign of Christ. However, all saints are bodily resurrected who were martyred during the reign of the beast in order to live for the 1000 years.

The wrath that is poured out on the 666 beast system is "1-6" wrath.

The wrath that is poured out on Satan and his "army" at Final Armageddon is the final wrath of perfection in total and complete separation from God that produces annihilation in the first creation being completely destroyed into non-existence.

I think you are most likely right (I just cannot be sure myself) about the 45 days.

Now, Daniel will be resurrected with all Israel at the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ (Ezek 37). Daniel WILL BE ALIVE at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, knowing that Daniel will be alive at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ ~~ having been resurrected with all Israel and returning to the Promised Land at the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ ~~ how does this "inform your view" of what was spoken to Daniel??

What do you think and what does the Spirit show you??

 

[justsurfing]

In a very non-mocking, non-belittling and non-flaming way, and indeed with an abundance of good cheer and deep, deep respect, I would merely point out that by their fruitcakes you shall know them ...

Actually, I'm very partial to the eschatology that whomever happens to be the President of the United States at any given point in time is a good candidate to be the Beast. Very, very disappointed when this one failed to pan out, because the patented 666 Beast Identifier lit up like a Christmas tree when he was elected ...

CANDIDATES FOR THE ANTICHRIST​

The president of the United States of America​

[SIZE=+2]Whoever he is[/SIZE]. [SIZE=+1]It's a permanent Illuminati's vacancy[/SIZE]. If you think George W. Bush is a genuine reborn Christian, you should read what Jesus said: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them." (Mt.7:15-19)

Now, what are the fruits of this man? President Bush -- Bad Fruits versus Good Fruits

I believe GWB is a Skull and Bones satanist not a Christian. (That is a lifetime commitment and membership in a satanic organization. He has never denounced it.) He also denies that Jesus Christ is the only way of Salvation. He also states the Bible is not the inspired, infallible Word of God. I actually believe GWB HOPED that he would become the 666 beast that arises from the position of POTUS. The satanists know, I'm sure, that the 666 beast arises from the position of POTUS. They just have an inverse view of what that "means".

 

[Super Kal]

Bush was more of a universalist... that whole belief that all paths lead to God is picking up speed in the Emergent Church... which I believe Bush was a part of

 

[justsurfing]

[/color][/color]

ok so far...but all Christians in general are not protected....
only the elect are...(Luke21)
not all Christians are elect...only the ones that remain faithfull are.

I'm a Calvinist. All Christians who are elect of God are true Christians born of the Spirit of God. God will preserve the salvation of all the elect. All the elect will remain faithful. However, there will be a Great Falling Away of those who are in the church but not spiritually converted. They never were saved. Those who are protected in the land of Revelation 12 ~~ it's debatable and I personally "cannot take a position" at this time. Position would be:

1. Only Christians on the land of Revelation 12 (the USA) at the time of Revelation 18 wrath are included in the protection of Revelation 18 and arise as the nation of Revelation 12, or
2. Christians on the land of the USA AND from around the world who are "ready" will "hear the angel" of Revelation 18:4 to spiritually separate from the world system will be translated to what "becomes" the land of Revelation 12 (both the land of the USA) protected during the Great Tribulation.

many people think the A of D is a thing, like a statue
when it is an entity that is worshiped...not a thing...Satan himself worshiped

When a person worships a man as God, they are inherently worshiping Satan. Satan is represented by the image of the man worshiped as God and is in the image of the man spiritually who blasphemes the Holy Spirit -- so Satan is being worshiped spiritually in my view.

I agree with you that what is of central significance is that Satan is being worshiped. The abomination of desolation occurs due to the spiritual level of blasphemy that occurs at that moment, in my view. For example, the entire world of reprobates has blasphemed the Holy Spirit. In the act of worshiping the 666 beast as God, their full unity has come to abomination of desolation worldwide. Satan has completely filled them as entities ~~ and they are wholly DESOLATE of the Spirit of God in them. The act of the world in total blasphemy of God worshiping the 666 beast as God is so profane spiritually -- that the entire world system has become completely evil and fully manifested spiritually the worship of Satan as a "corporate body" with a "titular head" replacing Jesus Christ.

So, I am agreeing that the "spiritual dimension" of the entire larger picture of that satanic covenant and body come to "fullness" of abomination and thus entire "desolation" in separation from God in their souls as a worldwide global body -- is, to me, the abomination of desolation in that act of initiation. This initiates the 3-1/2 year period. (They don't get any "better" as a body in spiritual state of being -- nor can they. They are in a state of worldwide global blasphemy of the Spirit. The entire 3-1/2 years is an ongoing abomination of desolation - but hits "critical mass" at the point in time at which the 666 beast rises, declares himself God, and the Luciferic initiation of the "new age" is thus initiated.)

specific timing is not at isue here,
as the A of D will be worshiped for the latter 1/2 of the trib

Agreed that the substantive spiritual reality of what occurs is of central significance. However, we are now at a "time" to KNOW the specific timing of the abomination of desolation IF we "pinpoint" the initiation date of the 7 year period of the apocalypse by "noticing" the "confirming of the covenant with the many" has occurred.

Noticing that this "event" has occurred, how, when, and by whom ~~ is completely within the range of biblically "watching and praying". Therefore, we have every legitimate "business" knowing that the 666 beast committed the initiating act of the 7 year apocalypse in "confirming the covenant with the many", knowing that this was Barack Hussein Obama taking the oath of office to POTUS (which I say the second date of January 21, 2009 is most likely the "official" date that the Bible would line up with).

Once we notice that date, it's our biblical "responsibility" to know that the specific event of the 666 beast declaring himself to be God and declaring war on the saints occurs 1260 days later -- and to know what "happens" in a domino effect as revealed in scripture for us to know by the Spirit.

(there is another 7000 witnesses too,
the very elect who will work for Christ in the trib!)

Would you please share your view on the additional number being "7,000"??

I'm going to agree that of course the 144,000 hear God and separate from the 666 beast system to be protected by God. However, one would be missing the point of scripture to fail to see that Revelation 18 and Revelation 12 are specific nations. They are protected from the time of the abomination throughout the Great Tribulation.

Now, if you counter me to state that you believe the 144,000 are protected at the same time -- then I am going to take that under advisement.

You see, I have "wondered" if perhaps the "two witnesses" are the two corporate bodies that are protected during the Great Tribulation: the Christians of the land of the USA and the 144,000 Jews in Israel.

Thus, the two witnesses would not be "individuals" but two separate corporate bodies of believers.

I am not "decided". I don't "hold a position". It's "open" and I would need to have more scripture enlivened to "hold a position".

I tell you with all certainty that I know that I know that I know that the Spirit has revealed to me that the Christians of Revelation 18 are Christians of the USA. That's a personal conviction that is not intellectual by human reason in my understanding in my personal relationship with the Lord.

However, I will not automatically "limit God" to say it's "impossible" that a parallel representation of the 144,000 may also be revealed through the same scripture as it is interpreted through other scripture. God is not as "boxy" in the scripture as people sometimes think. The same scripture can apply to different events and occasions as it is properly "seen" through other scripture as scripture interprets scripture.

(I'll come back to the rest of your post to ponder the remaining points you made).

 

[justsurfing]

Bush was more of a universalist... that whole belief that all paths lead to God is picking up speed in the Emergent Church... which I believe Bush was a part of

There are two forms of "universalism" picking up speed right now:

1. All persons eventually come to saving faith THROUGH Jesus Christ, or
2. Jesus Christ is unnecessary to salvation and all paths lead to God

The #1 point is Christian universalism and is not blasphemy affirming Jesus Christ as the only Way of Salvation.
The #2 point is satanic universalism and is blasphemy denying Jesus Christ as the only Way of Salvation.

GWB is a satanist, in my view, not a born-again Christian exploring Christian universalism. He advanced the NWO and the satanic agenda of the illuminati and is actively part of the conspiracy to bring forth the satanic one world government. By no means will I personally accept GWB as a Christian brother.

 

[justsurfing]

[/color][/color]

sounds good to me,
but IMO those protected children will have been changed as 1Cor15 shows,
and thus physical harm cannot happen to them anymore

With all due respect, what I believe "is happening" in your view of scripture is "not yet seeing" the various "gatherings" that occur ~~ and so not differentiating them one from another with their specific attributes and characteristics.

For example, at the midpoint of the apocalypse when the "nation of Revelation 12 rises" they are arising in "Christian perfection". They have not gained new spiritual bodies. That occurs only at the final return of the Lord Jesus Christ at Final Armageddon after the 1000 years.

Physical harm cannot happen to them because they have arisen in "entire sanctification". They are in the spiritual state of Christian maturity of the full measure of the full stature of the Lord Jesus Christ as He walked on this earth in a human body of flesh prior to His death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus, at that time, could "transfigure". He could walk through crowds without being noticed. He had dominion over earth and the wind and waves obeyed Him. He could walk on water. All of this, likewise, Adam could have done when Adam was in entire sanctification, in perfect submission to God the Father in the Spirit and thus in dominion over earth, skies, land, sea, and animals, etc. It was "not Jesus' ministry" to call down fire upon persons as Elisha did ~~ however, Jesus could have. Elisha was in a human body. Jesus, as God come in the flesh, was of greater spiritual authority than Elisha. So, if Elisha could call down fire upon people -- if Elijah could -- so, too, could Jesus Christ. He simply chose not to because He came to go to the cross to provide redemption.

But because Jesus Christ was walking on earth in entire sanctification, no one could harm Him without His "permission". They did not take Jesus' life from Him -- He laid it down. Jesus could have called down fire in the Garden of Gethsemane to kill the Roman soldiers. Jesus could have called down a dozen legions of angels to protect Him.

It is not necessary to have a "new spiritual body" to walk in the Kingdom power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ in fullness. But, it is required that one arise in the full measure of the full stature of Jesus Christ in Christian maturity, or perfection, in entire sanctification. That is what we are seeing in the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation. That is also what we are seeing potentially in the 144,000 as well as the saints of the USA in Revelation 12. (This is why I wonder if it is possible that the two corporate bodies actually "are" the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation.)

So, that is my case for stating that it is "getting ahead of ourselves" to believe that any Christians will be changed into spiritual bodies prior to the Lord's return at Final Armageddon at the end of the 1000 years -- not realizing the level Kingdom power and authority that is requisite in the body, even in human bodies as Jesus was born into on earth, the moment the body arises in entire sanctification as the body arises spiritually in entire sanctification in Revelation 12.

when the rapture happens, it will be a gathering together ON EARTH...
Christ ON EARTH

There is more than one gathering. These are the gatherings I see:

#1. Gathering of the saints of Revelation 18 which becomes the same saints gathered in Revelation 12 in the "perfect spiritual nation" arising.
a. The USA Christians
b. You see the 144,000 in Israel (now, I would see them as a separate "body" and thus a separate "gathering" ~~ but I understand you to be saying you think this happens "at the same time" at the time of the abomination of desolation midpoint of the 7 year period of the apocalypse).
#2. 6th Seal Gathering ~~ meeting Jesus in the mid-Heaven which CAN HAPPEN in a human body so long as the saints are in entire sanctification. Adam could fly before the fall, for example. This is the gathering that occurs for Revelation 19 marriage supper of the Lamb:

Revelation 19:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.



#3. The final "gathering" is at the return of Jesus Christ at Final Armageddon after the 1000 years when those who are alive do not prevent those who have died and they meet Jesus in the air. That is when persons gain new spiritual bodies. That is when Jesus descends with a shout with all saints with Him and all angels with Him and the first creation -- Heaven and earth -- are utterly destroyed and melt in fervent heat.


So, when Christians blur together the 3 instead of differentiating them, each is not sharply differentiated and understood in progression of what each gathering actually represents and "includes".

Satan is bound 1000 years and loosed at the end of it
so the elect get to teach the rest (beguiled/seduced ones) the truth for 1000 years,
in their changed glorified bodies

No, because no one's body can be changed, as I see it, until the final return of Jesus Christ. You see, if any of us "came down" in a new spiritual body ~~ it could result in the dissolution of the elements... as it will when we return with Jesus Christ in new spiritual bodies at Final Armageddon at the end of the 1000 years.

Calvinism will prevent many errors. We cannot "teach" better than the Holy Spirit. The only way to know truth is by revelation by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will do His work -- and we cannot do His work for Him.

We will live on the earth in Christian perfection for the 1000 years marrying, having children, building cities, living like mankind was created to live prior to the fall.

if you said that this was the Millennial time, then I'd agree with you.
see Ezekiel 44 (Zadok)

What happens in the USA, the land of Revelation 12, for the 3-1/2 years is a "precursor" of what will happen worldwide in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

This is entire sanctification in a human body made of earth ~~ living as man would have lived were it not for the fall. Satan is "booted" from the land of Revelation 12 as the saints arise together in entire sanctification. This is very much "like" how Satan will be bound at the end of the 7 year period. However, Satan will be removed from the entire earth at that time. So the entire world will become "like" the land of Revelation 12 became at the burning of the land in Revelation 18 fire and the Christians arising in Christian maturity on the land.

Satan was "bound" in relation to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had all Kingdom power and authority over Satan in a state of entire sanctification the perfect submission of Jesus Christ to God the Father in the Holy Spirit.

But in Revelation 12 we see the progression of Satan being bound in relation to one Christian nation arising in Christian maturity in a land with specific borders that Satan cannot enter during the Great Tribulation.

To initiate the 1000 year reign of Christ, all evil will be destroyed on earth in sinners. You see, it is sinners that keeps us from arising in spiritual maturity in Christ. It is our "bond" with them. They are Satan personified on earth.

When God kills all the sinners in the USA (who will have all blasphemed the Holy Spirit and declared war on the Christians to commit genocide and fully deserve to be killed in justice in God's Judgment in wrath upon them in this nation) ~~ and only saints are on the land ~~ and the land is separated from the rest of the world ~~ we will be AMAZED how we automatically "arise" in the full measure of the full stature of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Likewise, when Jesus kills all sinners of the 666 beast system and there are no sinners on earth -- all around the world Satan will be BOUND and God will bind him for the 1000 years.

We will inherently arise worldwide in the full measure of the full stature of Jesus Christ arising as ONE BODY of Christian saints with no "soul ties" to sinners, thus Satan.

It really "makes sense" spiritually and you can see how it will "happen" by the action God takes in Divine Intervention.

(I'll respond to other points later.)

 

[zeke37]

I'm a Calvinist. All Christians who are elect of God are true Christians born of the Spirit of God.

i agree...but not all Christians are elect...only the elect are elect
ps. I'm not a Calvanist...

God will preserve the salvation of all the elect.

I agree4...but again, not all Christians are elect.

All the elect will remain faithful.

agreed..the elect are the elect and as such were chosen by God for their role,
before the foundations of the world ever began

However, there will be a Great Falling Away of those who are in the church but not spiritually converted. They never were saved.

we disagree...the condition is whether the potential bride will be staying faithfull or not...
not about who is born again.

but I firmly believe that the 144,000 are for sure all born again

Those who are protected in the land of Revelation 12 ~~ it's debatable and I personally "cannot take a position" at this time. Position would be:

1. Only Christians on the land of Revelation 12 (the USA) at the time of Revelation 18 wrath are included in the protection of Revelation 18 and arise as the nation of Revelation 12, or
2. Christians on the land of the USA AND from around the world who are "ready" will "hear the angel" of Revelation 18:4 to spiritually separate from the world system will be translated to what "becomes" the land of Revelation 12 (both the land of the USA) protected during the Great Tribulation.

I don't think that there is any particular nation meant by the wilderness

the part that I get, is that Satan will be here on earth himself,
in his very own supernatural body,
and will send a flood of lies after the woman and her descendants
who believe in Christ..

seducing most of the potential bride of Christ


and I look for a physical fulfillment,
which includes but is not limited to a spiritual one

When a person worships a man as God, they are inherently worshiping Satan. Satan is represented by the image of the man worshiped as God and is in the image of the man spiritually who blasphemes the Holy Spirit -- so Satan is being worshiped spiritually in my view.

in my view it is literally,
while he is here on earth physically for his short season....
he's as real and physical as the angels who visited Lot were.

I agree with you that what is of central significance is that Satan is being worshiped. The abomination of desolation occurs due to the spiritual level of blasphemy that occurs at that moment, in my view. For example, the entire world of reprobates has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

no one as of yet has Blasphemed the Holy Spirit...IMO
(perhaps besides Satan and his angels)

IMO if you KNOW God is real
and if you hear Him ask you to do a thing or say a thing,
and you, knowing that He is real, say no...

that is the unforgivable sin IMO

In the act of worshiping the 666 beast as God, their full unity has come to abomination of desolation worldwide. Satan has completely filled them as entities ~~ and they are wholly DESOLATE of the Spirit of God in them. The act of the world in total blasphemy of God worshiping the 666 beast as God is so profane spiritually -- that the entire world system has become completely evil and fully manifested spiritually the worship of Satan as a "corporate body" with a "titular head" replacing Jesus Christ.

my view has Satan, while in heaven, having spiritual powers....
but when he is cast here to earth for a short season,
it is his physical appearance that will fool the world

So, I am agreeing that the "spiritual dimension" of the entire larger picture of that satanic covenant and body come to "fullness" of abomination and thus entire "desolation" in separation from God in their souls as a worldwide global body -- is, to me, the abomination of desolation in that act of initiation.

the A of D is Satan himself being worshipped as God returned...
IN the Temple of God, which is not a brick building, but His followers

Satan sits IN THEM (spirit) as they think his physical appearance is Christ's Coming.

This initiates the 3-1/2 year period.

shortened for the elect's sake (Rev9 possibly?)

(They don't get any "better" as a body in spiritual state of being -- nor can they. They are in a state of worldwide global blasphemy of the Spirit. The entire 3-1/2 years is an ongoing abomination of desolation - but hits "critical mass" at the point in time at which the 666 beast rises, declares himself God, and the Luciferic initiation of the "new age" is thus initiated.)



Agreed that the substantive spiritual reality of what occurs is of central significance. However, we are now at a "time" to KNOW the specific timing of the abomination of desolation IF we "pinpoint" the initiation date of the 7 year period of the apocalypse by "noticing" the "confirming of the covenant with the many" has occurred.

it is not 7 years any longer, IMO..
as Christ taught the time has been shortened for the elect's sake,
else all of us would fall to Satan's lies, including those end time witnesses

we disagree on your last paragraph

when "we" see Satan here on earth in his supernatural angelic body,
play acting Christ returned, being worshiped as God,
then "we" shall know that the A of D is here and that "we" are in that time...

we IMO, only constitutes 7000 at first, and then later, 144,000
(I think these numbers are symbolic only, and I will explain the 7000 soon!)

Noticing that this "event" has occurred, how, when, and by whom ~~ is completely within the range of biblically "watching and praying". Therefore, we have every legitimate "business" knowing that the 666 beast committed the initiating act of the 7 year apocalypse in "confirming the covenant with the many", knowing that this was Barack Hussein Obama taking the oath of office to POTUS (which I say the second date of January 21, 2009 is most likely the "official" date that the Bible would line up with).

I completely disagree...
we do not know the time..
only the season if we are elect

and it serves no purpose to call a specific hu-man being, Satan!
you have judged him, and we ain't supposed to do that.
he could be a type, but he is not Satan...
it could be the beginning of the NWO even....
the kings of the earth set up the one hour kingdom.

but it is Satan himself (in his own supernatural angelic body)
who plays his own role in these end times

Satan arrives at the 1/2 way point of the 7 years (shortened tho!)
as there is slience in heaven for 1/2 hour...because Satan is GONE here!
that is the mid way point...his arrival!

Once we notice that date, it's our biblical "responsibility" to know that the specific event of the 666 beast declaring himself to be God and declaring war on the saints occurs 1260 days later -- and to know what "happens" in a domino effect as revealed in scripture for us to know by the Spirit.

the time has been shortened
and we won't know when exactly, untill the two witnesses are killed..
3 days later...Christ comes

that is, if you think that the two witnesses are literal folks who can be killed...some don't

Would you please share your view on the additional number being "7,000"??

ya, I knew you'd say that, lol

It is not open to all....not specifically stated...but I have my reasons.


1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

that is who I think Smyrna and Philadelphia are represented in.

I'm going to agree that of course the 144,000 hear God and separate from the 666 beast system to be protected by God. However, one would be missing the point of scripture to fail to see that Revelation 18 and Revelation 12 are specific nations. They are protected from the time of the abomination throughout the Great Tribulation.

I disagree...both are symbolic of a much larger area than a single nation.
where ever the descendants of Israel were scattered to back in history,
is where they are from in Rev12...
not a nation protected, but a people protected

Now, if you counter me to state that you believe the 144,000 are protected at the same time -- then I am going to take that under advisement.

I think that they are protected by God individually....all over the world

IMO the 144,000 are true Christian believers that are "at first" taken by the beasts system....the first half especially (political)

but when the witness of the 7000 happens (on IMO the last day)
(ya I know you have not accepted that yet)
then the 144,000 hear the Words (as in Acts2/Joel2)
spoke by the "very" elect
then they "come out of Babylon" before the wrath is poured

I do qualify this by saying IMO

 

[zeke37]

You see, I have "wondered" if perhaps the "two witnesses" are the two corporate bodies that are protected during the Great Tribulation: the Christians of the land of the USA and the 144,000 Jews in Israel.

again, there is no such 144,000 JEWS mentioned in the Bible

Judah is ONE of TWO houses...

the elect are going to be taken from 12 tribes, not 1 or 2...

to say JEWS from Israel is completely incorrect..and that is not opinion

there is scattered Israel, and Judah who BOTH were takenm captive and then scattered into other nations

they migrated into other peoples, and God specifically characterizes them for us, so we know that He is speaking of Christians

Thus, the two witnesses would not be "individuals" but two separate corporate bodies of believers.

the two witnesses are pretty much defined for us as 2 churches...candlesticks=churches (see Smyrna and Philadelphia)

the two olive trees, well I think they are individuals...
and I think it is those olive trees that are killed in Rev11, not the candlesticks

I think these 2 candlesticks are the 7000 that I mentioned earlier

from their witness, God speaking through them as in Acts2,
the 144,000 come out of Babylon...

I am not "decided". I don't "hold a position". It's "open" and I would need to have more scripture enlivened to "hold a position".

smart way to be! I often have no current position, because of the same reason.

I tell you with all certainty that I know that I know that I know that the Spirit has revealed to me that the Christians of Revelation 18 are Christians of the USA. That's a personal conviction that is not intellectual by human reason in my understanding in my personal relationship with the Lord.

cool....you mean the ones that come out of Babylon?
I do not think that they are specific to one nation at all.
infact I'm pretty sure that they are not

However, I will not automatically "limit God" to say it's "impossible" that a parallel representation of the 144,000 may also be revealed through the same scripture as it is interpreted through other scripture. God is not as "boxy" in the scripture as people sometimes think. The same scripture can apply to different events and occasions as it is properly "seen" through other scripture as scripture interprets scripture.

(I'll come back to the rest of your post to ponder the remaining points you made).

me thinks God speaks on many levels...

the end times are about, IMO, a physical end, and a spiritual realization

so I look for a physical appearance of both the evil one and the Awsome One,
and a spiritual lesson derived from that end time series of events

 

[justsurfing]

OK, I want to "add a thought" and a level dimension to the discussion regarding fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 and Barack Hussein Obama. I think there is confusion in Christians regarding OT Israel and the New Covenant. Christians are "trained" to deny who they are in Christ. We are a holy nation. We are God's chosen people. We are kings and priests in Christ. "Who we are" is a separate issue from OT Israel. We are in Christ. View on Daniel 9:27:

1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Barack Hussein Obama is the anti-Christ in my view. He was born a European citizen (his father being a UK citizen, etc.). His father was also Muslim, Obama is Muslim. Apocalypse began, most likely, 1/21/2009 in his second swearing in ceremony by which he "confirmed the covenant with the many".

Endtime Prophecy ~ Part III Rise of the 666 Beast 1/20/2009 (or 1/21/2009) in Obama (aka Sotero) “Inauguration”?? | 12 Star Truth

Please note, the covenant confirmed with the many is stated by many to be an Arab/Israeli peace treaty. It must be understood that any "Christian nation under God" is a covenant nation in the second covenant. There is only one Christian nation under God as a covenant nation in the second covenant at this time: the United States of America.

The 666 beast is Muslim. Because he is the 666 beast, even if the world does not recognize him to be the 666 beast at the time of him making the covenant of peace ~~ he is still spiritually the "titular head" of the Muslim world spiritually.

It's just that when he confirms this covenant, he has not yet declared himself to be God, the 666 Mahdi, the leader of all world religions. He has not yet declared war on the saints to commit global genocide against all Christians. He will do so 1260 days after confirming that covenant at the abomination of desolation.

The "covenant" is not made with Middle East Israel, in my view. The "covenant" is made with the second covenant Christian nation under God: the USA. The "covenant" is made in deceit. The 666 beast is lying as a master of intrigue. The 666 beast swears "peace" to the people of the USA and it's Constitution. However, the 666 beast planned all along to destroy the USA, to install global Islam, declare himself God, and commit genocide against Christians utterly destroying the USA in "fundamental transformation".

At the midpoint of the apocalypse, the abomination of desolation, the lie of the 666 beast as well as his clear identity as the 666 beast is made clear (at least to Christians). He does "everything" the 666 beast will do in the abomination of desolation.

The 666 beast, in my view, enters the office of POTUS as a secret Muslim with the above-stated intentions. He perjures himself to take the oath of office to the position of POTUS as he swears to uphold, protect, and defend the Constitution. He is hailed as a "man of peace". In fact, he is immediately nominated for and receives the Nobel Peace Prize.

The oath of office is the "covenant" between the Arab/Muslim world and Christiandom. The 666 beast represents the Arab/Muslim world in the oath to the USA. The USA represents, as stated, the Christian nation under God to whom/which the 666 beast makes the oath to confirm the covenant.

The oath the Muslim 666 beast takes to be sworn into the office of POTUS is a form of "covenant of peace". It is a lie on the part of the 666 beast (Mahdi). He does represent Islam as the "unknown" titular head of Islam/the Muslim world as he takes the oath of office to POTUS. He initiates the 7 year apocalypse in so doing.

Thus, viewing the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 as a "peace agreement" between the Muslim world via the Muslim 666 beast and Christiandom via the second covenant Christian nation of the USA (a second covenant nation under God -- thus spiritually a second covenant type of "Israel), this is fulfilled in the 666 beast swearing an oath of office to become President of the United States of America.

 

[zeke37]

OK, I want to "add a thought" and a level dimension to the discussion regarding fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 and Barack Hussein Obama. I think there is confusion in Christians regarding OT Israel and the New Covenant. Christians are "trained" to deny who they are in Christ. We are a holy nation. We are God's chosen people. We are kings and priests in Christ. "Who we are" is a separate issue from OT Israel. We are in Christ. View on Daniel 9:27:

1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Barack Hussein Obama is the anti-Christ in my view. He was born a European citizen (his father being a UK citizen, etc.). His father was also Muslim, Obama is Muslim.

you are incorrect friend
Obama was born in Hawaii, in August 1961 as a US citizen
he does not have dual citizenship


he is a Christian and has stated such many times

do not believe everything you read about him on the internet
speculation and lies...

maybe Obama is Satan's fall guy ...

Apocalypse began, most likely, 1/21/2009 in his second swearing in ceremony by which he "confirmed the covenant with the many".

Satan is cast out of heaven at the mid point of the last hour

we are not yet in that hour, because that hour begins with a NWO..

the NWO is not in effect as of 2009 or today...
when it is, you won't be able to spend your current currency

Please note, the covenant confirmed with the many is stated by many to be an Arab/Israeli peace treaty. It must be understood that any "Christian nation under God" is a covenant nation in the second covenant. There is only one Christian nation under God as a covenant nation in the second covenant at this time: the United States of America.

I'm getting dis-interested

The 666 beast is Muslim.

nope...

the "666" beast is a political beast at first,
and then is a religious beast,
that even is described as looking like a lamb...

not muslim....muslims will IMO be right in the middle of it all,
but the AC is not muslim and will not claim to be

many instead of (anti)Christ's will come...and a specific ONE.
the warning is for "us" not to look for him here or there
when others claim He is here

Satan himself is the antiChrist/false prophet...not Obama
pretending to be the returned Messiah specifically(and every other deity)

Because he is the 666 beast, even if the world does not recognize him to be the 666 beast at the time of him making the covenant of peace ~~ he is still spiritually the "titular head" of the Muslim world spiritually.

next time you see the Iranian president on TV,
look over his shoulder to the Imam with the big turban on
and you'll see the head of the Islamic faith

It's just that when he confirms this covenant, he has not yet declared himself to be God, the 666 Mahdi, the leader of all world religions. He has not yet declared war on the saints to commit global genocide against all Christians. He will do so 1260 days after confirming that covenant at the abomination of desolation.

fiction...

Satan himself, in his very own supernatural angelic body,
comes here to earth for a short season
and SEDUCES most of the potential bride of Christ

he does not kill them

The "covenant" is not made with Middle East Israel, in my view. The "covenant" is made with the second covenant Christian nation under God: the USA. The "covenant" is made in deceit. The 666 beast is lying as a master of intrigue. The 666 beast swears "peace" to the people of the USA and it's Constitution. However, the 666 beast planned all along to destroy the USA, to install global Islam, declare himself God, and commit genocide against Christians utterly destroying the USA in "fundamental transformation".

WOW!...that's all I can say!

At the midpoint of the apocalypse, the abomination of desolation, the lie of the 666 beast as well as his clear identity as the 666 beast is made clear (at least to Christians). He does "everything" the 666 beast will do in the abomination of desolation.

The 666 beast, in my view, enters the office of POTUS as a secret Muslim with the above-stated intentions. He perjures himself to take the oath of office to the position of POTUS as he swears to uphold, protect, and defend the Constitution. He is hailed as a "man of peace". In fact, he is immediately nominated for and receives the Nobel Peace Prize.

he may share some "traits" that some "think" the antiChrist has
but people were completely convinced that the last pres. of the USA was the antiChrist...
completely

you should have read the threads back then!

The oath of office is the "covenant" between the Arab/Muslim world and Christiandom. The 666 beast represents the Arab/Muslim world in the oath to the USA. The USA represents, as stated, the Christian nation under God to whom/which the 666 beast makes the oath to confirm the covenant.

The oath the Muslim 666 beast takes to be sworn into the office of POTUS is a form of "covenant of peace". It is a lie on the part of the 666 beast (Mahdi). He does represent Islam as the "unknown" titular head of Islam/the Muslim world as he takes the oath of office to POTUS. He initiates the 7 year apocalypse in so doing.

Thus, viewing the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 as a "peace agreement" between the Muslim world via the Muslim 666 beast and Christiandom via the second covenant Christian nation of the USA (a second covenant nation under God -- thus spiritually a second covenant type of "Israel), this is fulfilled in the 666 beast swearing an oath of office to become President of the United States of America.

we are in disagreement and I have no further need to even entertain Obama (or any man of flesh) as the end time son of Perdition...

that is Satan himself, who himself tempted Christ
and hurt Job, where the Bible states that he used to walk to and fro on the earth....

he's coming back friend...and not in Obama...

but rather in his own body...
a supernatural, miracle doing, beautifull angelic body





I really think Satan comes in pretending to be Christ

that pretence would NEED a fall guy....
someone that Satan(in disguise) could claim was the antiChrist,
and defeat him

Obama fits that catagory more IMO

 

[justsurfing]

you are incorrect friend
Obama was born in Hawaii, in August 1961 as a US citizen
he does not have dual citizenship


he is a Christian and has stated such many times

do not believe everything you read about him on the internet
speculation and lies...

Zeke, this is so disengenuous it appears bias through personal or political affiliation often referred to as "drinking the koolaid". It is not advisable to believe everything one hears on the MSM or Soteoro (aka Obama) campaign HQ.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] To those who argue, “That’s all nonsense, if you have a Hawaiian birth certificate you must have been born in Hawaii,” they need to account for the fact that Obama’s half-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng also has a Hawaiian short form certification of birth yet readily admits she was born in Indonesia in 1970. [/FONT][/FONT]http://colony14.net/id41.html

From "FactCheckOrg" which is in the tank for Soteoro (aka Obama):

When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom's dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.'s children:

British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.
​

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC. FactCheck.org: Does Barack Obama have Kenyan citizenship?


As far as Sotoero having been "born in the USA" ~~ we have no definitive factual evidence to that effect. No long form birth certificate has been presented. Moreover, millions of dollars have been spent blocking Constitutional efforts to gain access to a long form birth certificate as a factor of factual proof of eligibility for office. Therefore, it's quite possible Soetoro was not born in Hawaii and was only a UK citizen at the time of his birth.

Moreover, it is likely true that all USA citizenship was surrendered and Soteoro (aka Obama) is today an Indonesian, rather than US, citizen. If there was nothing to hide, Soteoro would end speculation by releasing records -- but has instead spent millions fighting discovery:

In 1966 or 1967 Ann Dunham married Indonesian Muslim Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo (1936-1987), who she had met at the University of Hawaii. By birth, Soetoro was Malaysian, but he had lived in Indonesia most of his life. Soon after his marriage to Dunham, Soetoro returned, alone, to Indonesia. Obama and Dunham later moved to Indonesia to join Soetoro, probably in 1967. Soetoro then adopted Obama, whose name was changed to Barry Soetoro. Elementary school records in Indonesia list Obama’s name as Barry Soetoro, his religion as Islam, and his citizenship as Indonesian. While in Jakarta, Obama attended Franciscus Primary School (1967-1969) and Besuki State Elementary School Menteng 01 (1969-1971). [6,14,172,289,324,329,801]...

Obama was legally adopted by his step-father, Lolo Soetoro, which made Obama an Indonesian citizen, according to Indonesian law. Because Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship, Obama thus lost his U.S. citizenship when he became an Indonesian citizen, in or about 1967. At that point Obama also ceased to be a Kenyan citizen {Note that his father Obama Sr. transferred from UK citizenship to Kenyan citizenship in 1963 thus transferring Barry Soteoro's (aka BHO's) citizenship from UK to Kenyan}, according to both Indonesian and Kenyan law. Indonesian law would also have required Ann Dunham to renounce her U.S. citizenship for her marriage to Lolo Soetoro to have been considered legal. If, after Obama returned to Hawaii, he applied for and was granted American citizenship, he would be a naturalized citizen (like California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger) and not a natural born citizen, and would therefore be ineligible to serve as President of the U.S. It is possible that Obama did not even bother to become a naturalized citizen of the United States, and remains an Indonesian citizen even today. Appropriate federal records would exist if Obama made application for naturalization. If they exist, they have not been made public. [258,300,305,492]

Indonesia’s policy of not allowing dual citizenship must be respected by the United States in accordance with the Hague Convention of 1930. Further, Obama, as a child, was not required to personally renounce his U.S. citizenship – that would have been an automatic result of his adoption by Lolo Soetoro. [492]

According to Indonesian legal experts, it is extremely difficult for non-Indonesian citizens to enroll in public schools in that country. That was especially true during the 1960s, when Indonesia was a police state, and Indonesian immigration employees and the police performed weekly checks on public schools to confirm citizenship compliance. This further supports the assumption that Obama was adopted by Soetoro. (Some argue that he was not adopted by Soetoro.) Obama’s half-sister, Maya Soetoro Ng, has stated that Obama was adopted by their father, Lolo Soetoro. [329,801]

Indonesia today still does not allow dual citizenship. Under Indonesia law, once Obama became a naturalized citizen by virtue of adoption, he could not lose that status without relinquishing his citizenship in writing, under oath. If he did that, the government of Indonesia would have those records. If he did not do so by age 21, Obama is to this day still an Indonesian citizen. His place of birth or the nationality of his mother is irrelevant; Indonesian law takes precedence under “The Master Nationality Rule of Article 4 of the Hague Convention on 1930.” The United States accepts dual nationality only if the other country does; Indonesia does not. [801] http://colony14.net/id41.html

(I'll come back to your statement that Obama is a Christian and has said so many times. I believe Charles Manson could claim to be a Christian, as well. Saying so doesn't make it so.)

 

[justsurfing]

he is a Christian and has stated such many times

As previously stated, Charles Manson could claim to be a Christian and repeat that lie many times. Saying so doesn't make it so.

Rise of the 666 Beast:

The scripture says, 1 Thessalonians 5:19Quench not the Spirit. 20Despise not prophesyings. So in reverence for the Word of God, let's examine scripture and current events.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
On January 20, 2009, Barry Sotero (also known as "Barack Hussein Obama") was "inaugurated" as President of the United States of America. However, the oath was not legally stated with the words in proper order on January 20, 2009. Therefore, the oath was repeated on January 21, 2009. Justice John Roberts repeated the swearing in of Barry Sotero into office. "One legal expert said an oath administered incorrectly is not the oath. "It's just 35 words, but they have to be said; they have to be said in that order," said George Washington University Law School professor Jonathan Turley (from article)."
So, it is "debatable" on which date Sotero was officially sworn into office. I personally would select the January 21, 2009 date. As I watched, I personally saw a "sign". So long as Barry Sotero held his hand on the Holy Bible (in this case the Holy Bible of Abraham Lincoln), his swearing in was invalidated. Sotero was unable to properly state the words of the oath of office. On January 21, 2009, no Holy Bible was present.
Because the Holy Bible is so very significant, I will take the time to speak of this matter in greater detail. First, Barry Sotero was incapable of being sworn into office with his hand upon a Holy Bible (on January 20, 2009; the Holy Bible belonging to Abraham Lincoln was used). Second, the Holy Bible was of no consequence to Barry Sotero on January 21, 2009. Having his hand on a Bible meant nothing to him personally, clearly, because he had no Bible present at his "second" swearing in.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL47_zMQbZ0]
Third, because no Holy Bible was present in the second swearing in ceremony, I gather having a Holy Bible present at the first swearing in ceremony was a "marketing tool". The Holy Bible was used by Barry Sotero, in other words, as a prop to manipulate the minds of the people of the United States of America to create a marketing image for himself.
Personally, I believe the Holy Bible is to Barry Sotero what holy water is to a vampire. The bottom-line is that Sotero was incapable of being sworn into the office of President of the United States of America with his hand upon the Word of God.
My position is that Barry Sotero (aka Barack Hussein Obama) is the 666 beast of the Book of Revelation who rises as the ruler of the endtimes one world government. The scripture states that this individual will take a position as a "master of intrigue".
Daniel 8:23 "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior.
Barry Sotero has produced no records related to his background, associations, and history. He has not so much as produced a long form birth certificate proving he was born in the United States of America. He was born of a foreign father, disputedly on foreign soil. This means he is not a natural born citizen of the United States of America having two American citizens as parents. His father, being a citizen of Kenya during colonization, was a citizen of Britain. If Barry Sotero was born on American soil, he would have possessed dual citizenship as a Britain and as an American. If he was born on foreign soil, according to the laws at that time, he would have been solely a Britain and not an American citizen (due to his mothers age when he was born on foreign soil).
Therefore, those who believe the 666 beast arises from Europe, please note that Barry Sotero "qualifies". He was born a dual citizen of the USA and the United Kingdom if born on American soil. He was, thereby, born a citizen of both Europe and the USA. However, if he was born in Kenya, Barry Sotero was born solely a citizen of the UK and thus Europe and did not possess American citizenship. Now, I do not believe Barry Sotero is constitutionally qualified to occupy the office of President of the United States of America. He does not have two American citizens as parents, etc., etc., etc. He refuses to release his long form birth certificate (if one exists). That is also a "sign" of the 666 beast. Sotero took the office of POTUS, purported to be the position of "leader of the free world", by intrigue and deceit.
So, we have Barry Sotero appearing as a "master of intrigue" moving by deceit as scripture states will be his character and actions. The scripture states also that he will consider himself superior. Sotero's attitude of superiority is widely noted.



To begin the 7 year apocalypse, we look for an event in which the 666 beast rises to power. He is hailed as a political messiah, a religious messiah, as he rises.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNdSSmcMOF8&feature=related]

Now, please note that Louis Farrakhan has been a visitor to the White House to personally visit with Barry Sotero. Please note that Sotero, from the position of President of the United States of America, has not distanced himself from Farrakhan. Rather, Sotero has legitimized Farrakhan by receiving Farrakhan into the White House. Please note, Farrakhan's religion calls whites "devils" and calls for racial genocide against whites as well as the genocide of non-Muslims.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fcf8Z7pzjw]

Click here for an article on Obama represented as a messiah March 2010 by New York Times article photo:
Another article on numerous similar photos, magazine covers here:
Here's the "Iam" video in which Obama is worshiped as a crowd chants and sings "Obama! Obama! Obama!". People say that Obama is going to provide "a world without fear; Obama rising to power is "a revival for the soul". "We are the ones... we can change the world"... Must see video.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghSJsEVf0pU]

Newsweek Editor Evan Thomas declares that "Obama’s standing above the country, above – above the world, he’s sort of God."
Here, Oprah declares Sotero is "the One" and the crowd goes wild in adoration and shouting. They are hailing Obama clearly as a political, perhaps even religious, messiah. Listening to the shouts of acclimation at about 1-1/2 minutes in as Oprah declares Obama to be "The One" prophesied in destiny, etc. is incredible. ("The One = "The Messiah": the black Messiah destined to destroy America then arise as a form of "Mahdi" according to Black Liberation Theology. Oprah called Sotero "the One" having attended a Black Liberation Theology church. She apparently knew what is taught regarding "the One" when she called Sotero "the One".)
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF3U7XTKJCw&feature=related]
We see also the symbolism of the revived Roman empire. Sotero chose Greco-Roman columns in a neoclassical temple facade as the scene of his nomination acceptance speech. The stage is set eerily like one might imagine it would be set someday for a man presenting himself to the world as God.

Sotero "looking forward" to "entering the temple" and declaring himself to be God in the abomination of desolation??

Part 1 Endtime Prophecy ~ Part III Rise of the 666 Beast 1/20/2009 (or 1/21/2009) in Obama (aka Sotero) “Inauguration”?? | 12 Star Truth

 

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Part 2 ~~ Endtime Prophecy ~ Part III Rise of the 666 Beast 1/20/2009 (or 1/21/2009) in Obama (aka Sotero) “Inauguration”?? | 12 Star Truth



Sotero has formally enacted a "New World Order Manifesto" declaring himself to be the leader of a "New International Order" and the USA to be the head of a new one world government. There was no discussion with the American people, no democratic or representative process, nor is this restructuring of Government constitutional. Sotero simply made a declaration as if he possesses dictatorial powers to reshape the United States of America as no longer a sovereign nation, but rather a leading nation of a "New International Order", as he assumes the role of the world ruler. These events and actions align perfectly with scripture plus show the forward momentum of Sotero in "remaking the world" by unilateral declaration. This is the same manner in which the 666 beast, at the abomination of desolation, unilaterally declares himself to be God.
MUST SEE VIDEO!!
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJvYkvnpsg0&feature=channel]

Additionally, we recall in the nomination acceptance speech Sotero saying, "I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment... when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal".
In a January 7, 2008 speech at Dartmouth College just before the New Hampshire Primary Sotero said "… a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote" (for him).
Clearly, Sotero views himself as a messianic figure who will inspire religious ephiphanies as well as religious devotion. Sotero, apparently, has a god-complex.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl0tLOIxl5M]

UPDATE: I am adding information relative to Barry Sotero aka Barack Hussein Obama's claim that he can be a Christian while not believing in Jesus Christ as God and the only Way of Salvation; while stating that a person need not believe in Jesus Christ or be born-again to go to Heaven; while stating that people who believe in other religions, messiahs, and Gods also go to Heaven and do so by their own goodness and good works. Let's take a look at his view of "salvation".
From American Thinker:
[FONT=times new roman,times]Our Collective Salvation[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,times]When Barack Obama spoke to the graduates of Wesleyan College last week, taking the place of ailing Senator Edward Kennedy, he gave a commencement address not unlike those anywhere. I, like others, read the [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]transcript[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times].[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,times]And here are the words that gave me a shudder:[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]It's because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition. (emphasis mine)[/FONT]
​

[FONT=times new roman,times]"Collective salvation" is an idea that comes from Marxism, Liberation Theology in particular, and is absolutely antithetical to traditional Christianity. When it comes to facing God on one's own judgment day, there is no hiding in groups, no "collective" anything. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,times]The idea of "collective salvation" or "[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]collective redemption[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]" is pure Marxism; there is nothing whatsoever Christian about it.[/FONT]
I believe anyone who wants to examine the "theology" of Barack Hussein Obama as related to his "Christianity" could find a good basis of critical examination in the article above in it's entirety.
The key issue of Christian faith is faith in the Deity of Christ. Islam accepts Jesus Christ as a prophet, but not as God for example. What is Barack Hussein Obama's answer to the question of Jesus to the disciples, "Who do you say that I am??" Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Me." Does Barack Hussein Obama believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is, thereby, not "just another prophet" but rather the only Way to Heaven -- the only Way to God -- the only Way of Salvation??
Obama Suggests Jesus Christ Not the Only Way to Heaven
Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama suggested Wednesday that Jesus Christ is not the only way to heaven during a campaign event in North Carolina.

View Full Image
(Photo: AP Images / Alex Brandon) Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama D-Ill., speaks at a town hall meeting in Greensboro, N.C., Wednesday, March 26, 2008.
While answering a question about his Christian faith, Obama said he believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins and through God’s grace and mercy he could have “everlasting life,” according to the Los Angeles Times.
But he also believes Jews and Muslims and non-believers who live moral lives are as much “children of God” as he is, according to The Associated Press.
As an example, he spoke about his late mother who was “not a believer.”
"he was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known," Obama said, according to the Times. "I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to."
Obama’s response came amid the recent controversy surrounding his former Chicago pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who made inflammatory remarks about race and America in sermons he delivered many years ago.
The Illinois senator, who has made religion a cornerstone of his campaign, has denounced the comments – which included “God damn America” for its racism – but refuses to distance himself from the pastor, whom he compares to an uncle.
During his response on Wednesday, Obama praised his church, Trinity United Church of Christ, especially its choir, and said it was very warm and welcoming and is like any other church in America in that it exists to praise God.
Obama also said he believes in putting the Gospel to action here on Earth and treating people with “dignity” and “respect” as children of God, according to the Los Angeles Times.
Another report on the same speech providing original audio clip:
Obama contends belief in Jesus Christ not necessary for salvation
GREENSBORO, N.C. - Senator Barack Obama has told an audience that although he believes Christ died for his sins, those who reject that teaching can also be children of God.

During a campaign stop yesterday in Greensboro, North Carolina, Senator Obama told the audience that he believes he "can have everlasting life" because Jesus Christ died for his sins. But he then told a questioner that he believes Jews and Muslims who live moral lives are just as much "children of God" as he is. (listen to audio clip)
The Illinois Democrat added that his late mother didn't share his faith but was a kind and generous person, so he's "sure she's in heaven." (listen to audio clip)
In his life and in his politics, Obama said he asks himself, "How can I apply Jesus's teachings in a very concrete way?"
Obama's religious beliefs have been put in the spotlight over recent revelations about his former pastor. Videotapes of some of Pastor Jeremiah Wright's sermons have been described as being racist and anti-America.
Yesterday, the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination for president referred to those sermon remarks as being "stupid," but he continues to reject suggestions that he should have left the church because of that kind of preaching from his pastor.
************
There is much evidence of Barack Hussein Obama's active practice of the Muslim religion. The Muslim religion is as antithetical to Christian faith as the anti-christ is antithetical to Jesus Christ. Many sound points could be made from many avenues of examination of the doctrine and life of Barack Hussein Obama. Doctrinally, on the basis of his denial of the essentials of salvation (1. That Jesus Christ is the only Way of salvation -- the only Way to God the Father, and 2. That all who reject Jesus Christ are condemned by their own sin to hell) I must refute any suggestion that Barack Hussein Obama is a born-again, Bible-believing Christian. He is an apostate. He is a reprobate. More than that, Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barry Sotero) is the 666 beast.
Endtime Prophecy ~ Part III Rise of the 666 Beast 1/20/2009 (or 1/21/2009) in Obama (aka Sotero) “Inauguration”?? | 12 Star Truth

 

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Part 3 response to "Obama is a Christian because he says so").

In his beginning remarks of Soetoro to the Muslim world (his FIRST PRIORITY upon entering the office of POTUS). Note that he said the Koran is "HOLY". Also, that the Koran was REVEALED. Therefore, Soetoro is stating that the Koran is the WORD OF GOD and is a work of REVELATION by God and is HOLY. Any Muslim thus KNOWS that Soetoro, in claiming to be a Christian, is practicing the art of DECEIT by which Muslims claim to be something they are not in order to advance Global Islam by DECEIT. Again, a person must necessarily (with all the evidence given above) deny the need of believing Jesus is the only Way of salvation to accept BHO as a "Christian" -- or be so in the tank for him that they refuse to apply scriptural tests objectively due to partisanship, bias, and group identification or some other explanation for not desiring to see self-evident facts. Obama Speech In Cairo: VIDEO, Full Text

The 666 beast will act in this manner. He will enter a position of power hiding his Muslim faith from those who would disapprove, but while also sending very strong "signals" to the Muslim world that he is practicing deception to "infidels" and is in fact a Muslim declaring the Koran to be Holy, Inspired, and the Revelation of God as the Word of God. The 666 beast as scripture states is a MASTER OF INTRIGUE. That is why healthy skepticism, evaluation of facts, and objective measures of truth are needed rather than taking his words at face value. He will LIE without CONSCIENCE because he is possessed by Satan and is the anti-christ.

Anyone who states, "Obama said so so I believe it" is not practicing "testing the spirits to see if they are of God". The anti-christ will function in lies so great and powerful -- that the Bible say he will speak by a power of strong delusion. It is not advisable to believe what Soteoro says "because he said so".

Obama Speech In Cairo: VIDEO, Full Text


Below, the full text of President Obama's speech in Cairo, Egypt, titled "A New Beginning."

I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted by two remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning, and for over a century, Cairo University has been a source of Egypt's advancement. Together, you represent the harmony between tradition and progress. I am grateful for your hospitality, and the hospitality of the people of Egypt. I am also proud to carry with me the goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim communities in my country: assalaamu alaykum.

We meet at a time of tension between the United States and Muslims around the world - tension rooted in historical forces that go beyond any current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of co-existence and cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their own aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the traditions of Islam.

Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11th, 2001 and the continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably hostile not only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights. This has bred more fear and mistrust.

So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end.

I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles - principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.

I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly the things we hold in our hearts, and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, "Be conscious of God and speak always the truth." That is what I will try to do - to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart.

Part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I am a Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the azaan at the break of dawn and the fall of dusk. As a young man, I worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in their Muslim faith.

As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam - at places like Al-Azhar University - that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.

I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers - Thomas Jefferson - kept in his personal library.

So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.


(speech remarks continued at site - with full video of his remarks. However, in my view, he's possessed by Satan. Therefore, he speaks in incredible power of deception and seduction spiritually -- as a "master brainwasher" due to the strong delusion empowered within him by satanic possession. I wouldn't personally advise listening to his voice rather than reading the remarks to analyze critically. I would advise to beware of confusion created by listening to his voice. The anti-christ's voice will have power to overpower people to brainwash them by strong delusion from his voice/spirit.)