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To follow the holy spirit and KNOW the bible is very different than being an expert dearest. When I think "expert" I think of those Pharisee's who taunted Jesus with the law asking about the woman who marries again after her husband dies.
Certainly they were expert at the scriptures but still appeared to know nothing and in fact earned eternal hell for themselves for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Good point.
I read a lot of folks here who appear proud of their knowledge but miss the point entirely. " I say this" or "I say that" A lot of folks here have "I" problems!
Yes, "I" think "we" "all" have "I" problems. Jesus saved me from "I"!! lol
Are they all born again? Judging from what they say in anger sometimes I would seriously be concerned for them. Eschatology has the primary purpose of drawing the unsaved to salvation!
From this scripture, the Book of Revelation was given for God to show His servants, the church, what must shortly come to pass. We're to read, hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the thing written therein in order to be blessed as believers. I think it is good to give a "wake up" call to unbelievers, also.
Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
One can argue the "logic" of single words or phrases until Rapture day and still be standing on the ground when everyone else is gone. And THAT would be tragic.
Good point! Perhaps "we", and "I", "all" need to be reminded of this (which is good to remember when we do not see scripture the same way, perhaps):
1 Corinthians 13:2 (King James Version)
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
With all due respect, I burst out laughing. Not even laughing at you. Just laughing really as I immediately recalled something. I had diligently been studying the Word for 3 decades with much prayer ~~ to see one thing. Then, one day, a poster presented a "concept" I had never before heard. One of my most primary "beliefs" was challenged on the basis not of conjecture, but scripture. It shook me to my core. But, because I will always examine something even if it challenges something long held ~~ I could not refuse to examine his scriptural case.The Lord has been working on me for 5 years now with Revelation...
I have a foundation that is in Rock....
any attempt to circomnavigate this foundation, will be disregarded as error
Come to find out ~~ upon further examination ~~ I was.... wrong. "Who knew??"... that my KVJ didn't have a literal translation of time in it. That had lead to error based on "scripture" (really a wrong translation). At age 8 I had presented those scriptures to the Lord and said, "How can this be?? This doesn't seem to fit??" Still, I was trapped for over 2 decades longer in error due to a mistranslation of words related to time.
But if you are so progressed after 5 years, it's impossible for your core assumption to be wrong.... I can only laugh. Perhaps I am laughing at the suggestion based upon my own experience.
God bless.
I did not say that it was of no consequense...I "ruled out" and "threw out" your suggestion that the political beast who rises to initiate the 7 year apocalypse is of no consequence.
it is the forrunner to, and the means to incorporate,
the 2nd beasts false kingdom...
there are 2 beasts...one is a political faction, and one is an individual
The first beast is the beast who confirms the covenant with the many. He does so as a political leader. At the mid-point of the apocalypse, he commits the abomination of desolation and continues through to the consummation -- until the wrath of God determined upon him is poured upon the desolate (the 666 beast system). Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
as I said before, the beast is a world wide political faction...
that is the 7 years...that is the covanent with many
led at first on earth by kings of the earth,
and in spiritual places by Satan...
but in the second half, Satan is here himself
running the show in his own supernatural body,
performing miracles and bringing peace with his flood of lies
I know it continues...it is wounded as of to death at the midst,The first beast absolutely does continue through the entire 7 year period and is worshipped as God during the latter 3-1/2 year tribulation.
but survives because of Satan's physical arrival....
that is how he is able to take away the daily Sacrifice,
(our prayers to God, not the blood of animals)
by claiming to be God and getting folks to worship him as Such
no...the first beast is a multiheaded dragon....Based on Daniel 9:27 and the statement that the same beast who initiates the 7 year period is "the one" who commits the abomination of desolation, this first beast is that political leader.
it is a world wide political faction led in spiritual places by Satan,
until the mid point when Satan is cast here to earth for his short season,
and runs things himself in person so to speak
the A of D, is actually Satan himself being worshiped as God,
not any statue etc.
it'll be bumpy for anyone who believes this supernatural fallen angel's false miracles and false peace, and claims of being God returnedAs far as a "bumpy ride" during the trib ~~ this whole thread is about what happens in the land of Revelation 18 at the midpoint of the apocalypse. How God's people are called out and protected, fire burns an entire land, and the saints rise in kingdom power and authority on earth.
the majority of the bride will be seduced, turned into harlots for Satan
instead of remaining faithful virgins for Christ
I did not say that...I do not accept your premise that the political world leader who rises to "confirm the covenant with the many" to initiate the 7 year period "disappears" at the midpoint of the apocalypse... per above.
I did not mention a single world leader rising in the beginning of the 7 years
I say that the political beast is ruled from men of the earth for the first half...
10 divisions IMO
but what should be a peacefull world system, is broken by something (war prob.)
and the political beast receives a deadly wound
Satan's arrival at the mid point (silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour),
saves the broken world system, which is quickly collapsing into what might be WW3
the world believes his lies and claims of Deity
ok... that is the silence in heaven for 1/2 hour,However, I had not previously considered the scriptural view that Satan being cast to earth comes in an angelic body to "be" the second beast. I am not certain if this is "ruled out" by scripture or not.
the accuser is cast out
the second beast is Satan himselfWho is the second beast?? Is he the "false prophet"??
in his role of false prophet,
where Christ is the true Prophet
this role is also called THE antiChrist(instead of Christ)
one entity, one role, called different things by us
false prophet = antiChrist
his role as false Jesus, and his political powers are thrown in...not any soulBecause the first beast and false prophet of the 7 year period are cast alive into the lake of fire.
huh....just think of his role as deceiving false Jesus...and his poitical powers...they are put in the lake of fire, before Satan isThey remain in the lake of fire when Satan is released from the abyss. Also, in Judgment, Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. So, if the "second beast" in the first 7 years is the false prophet ~~ that beast is not Satan.
that means that when he is released from the Millennium,
he does not have those two things to help him
no false Jesus role
and no political faction
the second beast is worshiped....so is the son of Perdition in 2Thes2I had always believed that the 2nd beast was the false prophet in the first 7 year period. If so, that 2nd beast is NOT Satan personified. However, if the 2nd beast is not the false prophet, then I will examine whether he could be Satan come in the body of a fallen angel.
Satan is cast to earth in scripture as the authority of the church rises in the anointing of Jesus Christ:
Luke 10:17-19 (King James Version)
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Christ is prophesying here, not giving a history lesson..
read the entire passage
Satan did tempt Christ in the gospels.Satan didn't come around when Jesus was ministering and appear before people to rule the world then.
trook him places...
Satan is cast out of heaven for his short season and goes after ChristiansSo, therefore, I'm not sure why people would think that Satan being cast down from Heaven in great authority of the church as the church arises in that power of the Spirit of Revelation 12 means that Satan is appearing in an angelic body to rule the world personally.
do you think angels in the bible are in physical form,You have not proven, to me, that Satan has appeared in a bodily form. The scripture is to interpret scripture. The scripture I just provided makes it more likely that Satan being cast to earth is evidence of the power of the church in Revelation 12 rising spiritually in Kingdom power and authority over Satan rather than Satan manifesting bodily on earth.
or look like men,
or are even called men?
as in the ones with Lot
or the ones that were with Elijah?
were the fallen angels of Gen6 mating with women or not?
isn't Satan their leader, according to Job1-2?
doesn't this show president that angels look like men and are physical and can walk to and fro?
and then, don't we have a teaching in Rev12 about Satan being cast here for his short season
and that he goes after Christians in that time
we can discuss why I think it is Satan,
or why you think it is a man...(general)
but no specific persons mentioned, or I am done!
we are warned not to do that in the Bible
The first beast who rises that is worshipped during the 7 year period is a political world leader who "confirms the covenant with the many". At the midpoint of the apocalypse he commits the abomination of desolation. He is completely possessed by Satan, is a devil, a child of the devil, a son of perdition, and is a human being at the same time. He is worshipped as God and martyrs Christiandom in the worst genocide and atrocity in all of human history.
You seem to have great difficulty looking squarely at man's relationship to Satan in a fallen state. Man spiritually who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit is filled with Satan. Jesus said man is a devil. Jesus didn't say the number of the 666 beast was the number of the devil as if to prove that the 666 beast is Satan personified in an angelic body. No, the Word states that the number of the 666 beast is the number of a man.Why would any deny that the first beast is a human being or attempt to divert Christians from pursuing this truth specifically??
Revelation 13: 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.John 6: 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Judas, being a devil, was also called a son of perdition as the 666 beast is a son of perdition also:
John 17: 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Man, since the fall, is a devil ~~ literally. He has the spirit of the devil and is a child of the devil. Being convinced of our salvation in Christ, we are able to see the evil of man without shrinking back.
Acts 13: 10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
1 John 3: 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Your inability to consider the 666 beast as a human being is concerning. That you justify him and call him a "fall guy" and cannot bear to hear of a human being being wholly evil in a blasphemous state filled with the spirit of the devil gives pause for thought.
You seem only to refer to Satan as evil and can only "blame the devil" for the evil of mankind. You cannot seem to look at Barack Hussein Obama abd bear the thought of a specific human being being considered as the 666 beast??
It is biblical to watch for the 666 beast rising. That is scripture being fulfilled. Personally, I sincerely believe it takes the grace of God to look squarely as the 666 beast rises.
Satan is cast down as the woman of Revelation 12 rises. All those who make that "rapture" will not have any issues with Satan during the Great Tribulation. The scripture says not to let that day catch us unawares. None of those who "make the rapture" into the land of Revelation 12 will have to personally deal with Satan outside the protected area of Revelation 12. And, our focus here is to be aware of the day, watching and praying as Jesus instructed us, and "making" that rapture.
A focus on Satan having been cast to the earth would be a wrong focus and a defeatist focus as if we expected to "miss the rapture". It would seem a focus directed there would be somewhat "engineered" to miss the rapture, in a way.
I think it wholly appropriate to focus on Barack Hussein Obama on this thread and the wisest course. If you're not comfortable, then it is your liberty to leave. However, it would appear to me that redirecting Christians in a manner that geared towards missing the rapture, as if they will not be in the land of Revelation 12 at the time Satan is cast down by the saints arising in Revelation 12 in 100% victory in Jesus, is just not the focus of this thread.
The first beast does specific things:I did not say that it was of no consequense...
it is the forrunner to, and the means to incorporate,
the 2nd beasts false kingdom...
there are 2 beasts...one is a political faction, and one is an individual
1. confirms the covenant with the many
2. commits the abomination of desolation (declaring himself God, declaring war on the saints)
3. Is worshipped as God.
He is an individual. Yes, he comes forth from a "political faction" ~~ but he is a specific leader or "figurehead". We don't agree. Even common sense, people don't rise up to worship "political factions". The political faction brings forth a specific individual as a "dictator figure" that people worship: Hitler, Stalin, Ceasar, history is replete. There are no "coalitions" that are worshipped. Those coalitions bring forth a dictator.
The focus on Satan is unhealthy the moment it shrinks from the recognition of the evil of man. I certainly don't mind evaluating whether Satan comes to earth as a fallen angel to even be the 2nd beast. However, it is unhealthy to use this in order to deny the wholly evil state of man in man's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit -- and to recognize evil in a PERSON such as Barack Hussein Obama and holding him up to the light of scripture to watch, pray, and test the spirits to see if they are of God.as I said before, the beast is a world wide political faction...
that is the 7 years...that is the covanent with many
led at first on earth by kings of the earth,
and in spiritual places by Satan...
but in the second half, Satan is here himself
running the show in his own supernatural body,
performing miracles and bringing peace with his flood of lies
The second beast calls all the world to worship the first beast as God. Now, this is why I say it is possible that the first part of Revelation 13 is the 7 year apocalypse and the latter part Satan when he emerges from the abyss. We see the dragon and the first beast below. I'm not so sure it's "right" to apply both sections of verses to the 7 year period. Your assertion that Satan himself comes in bodily form at the midpoint of the apocalypse is actually stronger here when it states the dragon and the first beast are together in unison. This doesn't call the dragon the 2nd beast or the false prophet. It simply says "the dragon". That's a stronger case for saying perhaps there's the dragon, the first beast, and the false prophet. (However, I see no evidence that Satan is in bodily form manifesting rather than being spiritually present as he is right now.)I know it continues...it is wounded as of to death at the midst,
but survives because of Satan's physical arrival....
that is how he is able to take away the daily Sacrifice,
(our prayers to God, not the blood of animals)
by claiming to be God and getting folks to worship him as Such
Revelation 13
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
The first beast is the "figurehead" and representative of the beast system. He is a man. The number of the beast is 666 - the number of a man.no...the first beast is a multiheaded dragon....
it is a world wide political faction led in spiritual places by Satan,
until the mid point when Satan is cast here to earth for his short season,
and runs things himself in person so to speak
the A of D, is actually Satan himself being worshiped as God,
not any statue etc.
We will be in the land of Revelation 12 so long as we don't "miss it".it'll be bumpy for anyone who believes this supernatural fallen angel's false miracles and false peace, and claims of being God returned
That is extremely vile to state. No born-again Christian is going to be a harlot for Satan. Please do not speak further in so vile a manner towards the bride of Christ.the majority of the bride will be seduced, turned into harlots for Satan
instead of remaining faithful virgins for Christ
It should be noted that the Muslim religion declares that Mahdi will rise and Jesus will appear with him uniting all world religions. Barack Hussein Obama would be the "Mahdi" figure. The second beast may come claiming to be Jesus Christ and a false prophet towards the Mahdi figure.I did not say that...
I did not mention a single world leader rising in the beginning of the 7 years
I say that the political beast is ruled from men of the earth for the first half...
10 divisions IMO
but what should be a peacefull world system, is broken by something (war prob.)
and the political beast receives a deadly wound
Satan's arrival at the mid point (silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour),
saves the broken world system, which is quickly collapsing into what might be WW3
the world believes his lies and claims of Deity
I don't agree with your position of the world system failing to have a human figurehead and that people will worship a political faction rather than a figurehead of same and the dragon who gives him power.
You disregard scriptural cases. You in fact want to state that the 7th seal is opened before the 6th seal. The 6th seal is opened at the marriage supper of the Lamb ending the 7 year apocalyptic period. And yet you want to state that the 7th seal is opened first at the midpoint of hte apocalypse and there is silence in Heaven for a half hour by the 7th seal being opened before the 6th seal. Illogical. And you will not re-evaluate your position.ok... that is the silence in heaven for 1/2 hour,
the accuser is cast out
That logic does not "work". The 666 beast and the false prophet are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire. They are clearly human beings, not fallen angels. They are also obviously individuals. Also, neither the 666 beast nor the false prophet are Satan who is dealt with separately. If you will not begin to evaluate logical fallacies in your assertions, how can we progress to greater understanding of the Word of God??the second beast is Satan himself
in his role of false prophet,
where Christ is the true Prophet
Revelation 19: 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Furthermore, at the end of the 1000 years, Satan is a completely separate PERSON from the INDIVIDUALS who are the 666 beast and the false prophet:
Revelation 20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The FIRST BEAST is an INDIVIDUAL who is cast into the lake of fire. The false prophet is an INDIVIDUAL who is cast into the lake of fire. They are cast in ALIVE ~~ proving they are human beings. Also, the scripture proves that NEITHER ONE is the devil ~~ who separate from them is sealed in the abyss/bottomless pit for a 1000 years.
Then, even after final Armageddon AFTER the 1000 years, it is made clear again that the first 666 beast, the prophet, and Satan are all separate from one another.
Your case as you presented it is completely disproven. The only think I personally would consider is if the "dragon" who is present at the midpoint of the apocalypse is Satan come as a fallen angel. I've never considered it before, but it seems fixated and wrong because the 7 year apocalypse is to highlight the evil of man and the world system and how man is the devil as man is spiritually filled with the devil.
The point God is making is man is so evil ~~ in the fall ~~ that the grace of God to the elect in His mercy remaking them in the image of Jesus Christ is heightened in our comprehension. We appreciate God having mercy on men in so fallen a state ~~ God is glorified.
Man is evil and God wants us to see it with absolute clarity that man in a fallen state is already satan incarnate at a core spiritual level -- and when God "lets go restraint" ~~ we see that man is Satan incarnate spiritually as the result of man's fall and just like the devils who fell. It was only grace that prevented full manifestation of the devil of man prior to the abomination of desolation. God is thereby glorified in His Holiness and in His grace to sinners in remaking us in Heaven's glory as His dear children wholly by grace.
The "Rapture" potentially VERY CLOSE!!
Yes I VERY much beleive that it is VERY CLOSE but no one will no the day or hour.
was it the words....world or age, by chance?With all due respect, I burst out laughing. Not even laughing at you. Just laughing really as I immediately recalled something. I had diligently been studying the Word for 3 decades with much prayer ~~ to see one thing. Then, one day, a poster presented a "concept" I had never before heard. One of my most primary "beliefs" was challenged on the basis not of conjecture, but scripture. It shook me to my core. But, because I will always examine something even if it challenges something long held ~~ I could not refuse to examine his scriptural case.
Come to find out ~~ upon further examination ~~ I was.... wrong. "Who knew??"... that my KVJ didn't have a literal translation of time in it. That had lead to error based on "scripture" (really a wrong translation). At age 8 I had presented those scriptures to the Lord and said, "How can this be?? This doesn't seem to fit??" Still, I was trapped for over 2 decades longer in error due to a mistranslation of words related to time.
But if you are so progressed after 5 years, it's impossible for your core assumption to be wrong.... I can only laugh. Perhaps I am laughing at the suggestion based upon my own experience.
God bless.
what I meant to convey is that the foundation of my belief is solid...
I am willing to intertain other interpretations
and see if they line up with the Scriptures, as I understand them...
little by little things change....
but if those interps fail what is foundational for me, after many years study,
they will not jive....and I throw them out as error
we've been through this already friend...we are not in agreementThe first beast who rises that is worshipped during the 7 year period is a political world leader who "confirms the covenant with the many". At the midpoint of the apocalypse he commits the abomination of desolation. He is completely possessed by Satan, is a devil, a child of the devil, a son of perdition, and is a human being at the same time. He is worshipped as God and martyrs Christiandom in the worst genocide and atrocity in all of human history.
there is no on comming Christian beheadings etc...
that is fantasy based off of incorrect interpretation
he (Satan) is coming (mid trib) to play act Christ returned,
big church time...
not lopping off heads...
but seducing the potential virgin bride of Christ into whoredom
ok...Jesus taught that we can be forgiven for Blashpheming God and the Son of God, but NOT for blaspheming the Holy SpiritYou seem to have great difficulty looking squarely at man's relationship to Satan in a fallen state. Man spiritually who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit is filled with Satan. Jesus said man is a devil. Jesus didn't say the number of the 666 beast was the number of the devil as if to prove that the 666 beast is Satan personified in an angelic body. No, the Word states that the number of the 666 beast is the number of a man.Why would any deny that the first beast is a human being or attempt to divert Christians from pursuing this truth specifically??
since we already know that Chrsitians are forgiven for their sins by Christ,
your idea is incorrect, because blashpeming of the Holy Spirit is UNFORGIVABLE
Revelation 13: 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.John 6: 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Judas, being a devil, was also called a son of perdition as the 666 beast is a son of perdition also:
John 17: 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Judas was infilled by Satan at that time,
and the declaration of son of Perdition is IMO only towards Satan,
who did the filling
not Judas, because Judas did repent,
and Judas did try to stop the murder of Christ
and Judas was martyred/murdered for his trouble too
so let's not judge him...let God do that
we should always try to convey the entire thought...to better understandMan, since the fall, is a devil ~~ literally. He has the spirit of the devil and is a child of the devil. Being convinced of our salvation in Christ, we are able to see the evil of man without shrinking back.
Acts 13: 10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
this is specific to a certain person...
who was probably a kenite, a Jewish imposter,
known in name as a Jew, as kenites are, but not in blood
6And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. 12Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
imo there are literal sons of the devil, of Cain's lineage..and they are called that, as the scribes in Jesus' time were...
but there are also spiritual sons....real bad dudes, regardless of blood line
spiritual IMO1 John 3: 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
literal IMO...see 1Chr2:55...scribes called Kenites are counted as JewsJohn 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
but they are not jews..they are kenites
connect with Rev2-3, Smyrna and Philadelphia
inability..not so much....Your inability to consider the 666 beast as a human being is concerning.
choice, well sure
the choice is based on what I understand about what the bible teaches
can you show me a biblical scripture that teaches us
that Satan will indwell the end time leader, instead of being here himself?
because I can show you the opposite...
Satan cast to earth for a short season and going after Christians with a flood that comes from his mouth
and the beast that looks like a lamb being worshiped
it's a possibility....That you justify him and call him a "fall guy" and cannot bear to hear of a human being being wholly evil in a blasphemous state filled with the spirit of the devil gives pause for thought.
Satan IS coming to deceive the world, in his own supernatural body
he will claim to be Christ returned...
one part of Christ's return is the defeat of this end time bad guy
So, logically,
Satan would need to "defeat" someone and claim that that someone was of the devil
a specific human being is NOT the 666 beast...Satan is!You seem only to refer to Satan as evil and can only "blame the devil" for the evil of mankind. You cannot seem to look at Barack Hussein Obama abd bear the thought of a specific human being being considered as the 666 beast??
see Rev12
I'm fine with that...I watch too!It is biblical to watch for the 666 beast rising. That is scripture being fulfilled. Personally, I sincerely believe it takes the grace of God to look squarely as the 666 beast rises.
IMO, the formation will be European to start
there is no "rapture" in Rev12Satan is cast down as the woman of Revelation 12 rises. All those who make that "rapture" will not have any issues with Satan during the Great Tribulation.
spiritual or otherwise
however, if you look to Ez37(my namesake here at CF),
you might find what you are describing...the spiritual awakening of the elect.
but it is not shown in Rev12, although I'm sure you'd beg to differ
I just don't see it that way friend,The scripture says not to let that day catch us unawares. None of those who "make the rapture" into the land of Revelation 12 will have to personally deal with Satan outside the protected area of Revelation 12. And, our focus here is to be aware of the day, watching and praying as Jesus instructed us, and "making" that rapture.
but I'm glad you don't believe we are whisked off of the planet
as a means of escape, like pretribbers do
no...there is no rapture until after Satan has done his thing...A focus on Satan having been cast to the earth would be a wrong focus and a defeatist focus as if we expected to "miss the rapture".
after the trib, there is the rapture...Mat24/Mar13
there is no rapture in Rev12...It would seem a focus directed there would be somewhat "engineered" to miss the rapture, in a way.
but to be sure, the elect do awaken in that time, as Ez37 shows
but it is not a rapture or gathering to Christ...
it is a spiritual awakening of spiritually dead people
you have the freedom to discuss your ideas with anyone you want,I think it wholly appropriate to focus on Barack Hussein Obama on this thread and the wisest course. If you're not comfortable, then it is your liberty to leave. However, it would appear to me that redirecting Christians in a manner that geared towards missing the rapture, as if they will not be in the land of Revelation 12 at the time Satan is cast down by the saints arising in Revelation 12 in 100% victory in Jesus, is just not the focus of this thread.
this thread otr another...up to you Bro.
as long as you follow forum rules.
as am I
but I said "I" would not entertain such an idea...
"I" will not debate it with you....
I'll just say no!
there is a very long reason, with a lot of scripture,
to why I believe Satan is coming here himself
in his own supernatural fallen angel body...for the trib's 1/2 way point
not flesh and blood but very real and physical, as angels bodies are
and not possessing anyone...but rather doing it himself....
can you show me where the "first beast" confirms the covanent with many? thx.The first beast does specific things:
1. confirms the covenant with the many
2. commits the abomination of desolation (declaring himself God, declaring war on the saints)
3. Is worshipped as God.
who the first beast?...7 heads....He is an individual.
we don't agree about "him" being the first beastYes, he comes forth from a "political faction" ~~ but he is a specific leader or "figurehead". We don't agree.
the first beast is a political factionEven common sense, people don't rise up to worship "political factions".
the first beast is run by 10 kings Rev17The political faction brings forth a specific individual as a "dictator figure" that people worship: Hitler, Stalin, Ceasar, history is replete. There are no "coalitions" that are worshipped. Those coalitions bring forth a dictator.
the point is, that the evil "man" IS a supernatural being,The focus on Satan is unhealthy the moment it shrinks from the recognition of the evil of man.
Satan IS a fallen angel,I certainly don't mind evaluating whether Satan comes to earth as a fallen angel to even be the 2nd beast
since that would be unforgivable, I do not agree with your conclusionsHowever, it is unhealthy to use this in order to deny the wholly evil state of man in man's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit --
I disagree...but you're not the first to disagree with meThe second beast calls all the world to worship the first beast as God.
see Rev9...he emerges from the bottomless pit then....Now, this is why I say it is possible that the first part of Revelation 13 is the 7 year apocalypse and the latter part Satan when he emerges from the abyss.
the fisrst beast has a mouth...We see the dragon and the first beast below. I'm not so sure it's "right" to apply both sections of verses to the 7 year period. Your assertion that Satan himself comes in bodily form at the midpoint of the apocalypse is actually stronger here when it states the dragon and the first beast are together in unison. This doesn't call the dragon the 2nd beast or the false prophet. It simply says "the dragon". That's a stronger case for saying perhaps there's the dragon, the first beast, and the false prophet. (However, I see no evidence that Satan is in bodily form manifesting rather than being spiritually present as he is right now.)
the first beast is a multiheaded political faction, under the dragon...The first beast is the "figurehead" and representative of the beast system. He is a man. The number of the beast is 666 - the number of a man.
We will be in the land of Revelation 12 so long as we don't "miss it".
being born again is not at issue...That is extremely vile to state. No born-again Christian is going to be a harlot for Satan. Please do not speak further in so vile a manner towards the bride of Christ.
Islamic interests are going to be involved, IMO no doubtIt should be noted that the Muslim religion declares that Mahdi will rise and Jesus will appear with him uniting all world religions. Barack Hussein Obama would be the "Mahdi" figure. The second beast may come claiming to be Jesus Christ and a false prophet towards the Mahdi figure.
at first, the first 1/2 hour, I really don't think it does...I don't agree with your position of the world system failing to have a human figurehead
I don't think the word "worship" here means in a religous sense.and that people will worship a political faction rather than a figurehead of same and the dragon who gives him power.
not really...I think that, much like the Olivette prophesy,You disregard scriptural cases. You in fact want to state that the 7th seal is opened before the 6th seal.
you can think that if you wish...many do!The 6th seal is opened at the marriage supper of the Lamb ending the 7 year apocalyptic period.
I have re-re-evaluated my position many times...And yet you want to state that the 7th seal is opened first at the midpoint of hte apocalypse and there is silence in Heaven for a half hour by the 7th seal being opened before the 6th seal. Illogical. And you will not re-evaluate your position.
if it were obvious, we would not be debating itThat logic does not "work". The 666 beast and the false prophet are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire. They are clearly human beings, not fallen angels. They are also obviously individuals.
one is a system and one is a role...Also, neither the 666 beast nor the false prophet are Satan who is dealt with separately.
perhaps it is not I that is in error Bro!If you will not begin to evaluate logical fallacies in your assertions, how can we progress to greater understanding of the Word of God??
actually, that proves the opposite...but anywayFurthermore, at the end of the 1000 years, Satan is a completely separate PERSON from the INDIVIDUALS who are the 666 beast and the false prophet:
The FIRST BEAST is an INDIVIDUAL who is cast into the lake of fire. The false prophet is an INDIVIDUAL who is cast into the lake of fire. They are cast in ALIVE ~~ proving they are human beings.
actually scripture says that the 2nd beast speaks like a dragon...see Rev12/20Also, the scripture proves that NEITHER ONE is the devil ~~ who separate from them is sealed in the abyss/bottomless pit for a 1000 years.
sure...Then, even after final Armageddon AFTER the 1000 years, it is made clear again that the first 666 beast, the prophet, and Satan are all separate from one another.
well, to each their own I guessYour case as you presented it is completely disproven.
while I understand what you are saying, and I kinda get it,The only think I personally would consider is if the "dragon" who is present at the midpoint of the apocalypse is Satan come as a fallen angel. I've never considered it before, but it seems fixated and wrong because the 7 year apocalypse is to highlight the evil of man and the world system and how man is the devil as man is spiritually filled with the devil.
Actually, Glenn Beck is one of the Two Witnesses.
Check out when Pat Gray joined up with Glenn Beck in witnessing. It was on July 13, 2009. Count 1260 days to Dec 24, 2012. Check out the date Achilles predicted the two witnesses mission would end, Dec 24.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
I sense that you have a conflict here, Acts?Hmmmm.....Glenn just announced a Restoring Courage rally for this year....in Israel ( many people interpret Jerusalem as being the "great city" spoken of in Rev. 11). We're a year early, but maybe 2011's rally in Israel won't be the last for Beck, eh Hawk?
In Christ,
Acts6:5
No, I'm not saying that it's Beck's last stand; I'm just comparing this recent development with your belief concerning Beck and Gray being the two witnesses. As I said, we're a year early (you've suggested that their mission would end on Dec. 24, 2012), but I think the Restoring Courage rally could certainly lead to other Beck appearances in Jerusalem next year that could coincide with the 2012 date.I sense that you have a conflict here, Acts?
You're trying to say that your prophecy 8-ball tells you that "Restoring Courage" is Beck's last stand? That'd bite ... but seems a tad early to me.
No idea, lol.So, where do ya think we are in the timeline, Acts?
Why is that, Acts?No idea, lol.
In Christ,
Acts6:5
My eschatology leans toward partial preterism, a system that doesn't always lend itself to identifying exact timelines and such.Why is that, Acts?
Surely you have studied Bible prophecy ...
You don't have an opinion ... or just don't want to express one, LOL?
Perhaps my earlier question was too broad. I'll be more specific.No, I'm not saying that it's Beck's last stand; I'm just comparing this recent development with your belief concerning Beck and Gray being the two witnesses. As I said, we're a year early (you've suggested that their mission would end on Dec. 24, 2012), but I think the Restoring Courage rally could certainly lead to other Beck appearances in Jerusalem next year that could coincide with the 2012 date.
No idea, lol.
In Christ,
Acts6:5
God's still moving on his timetable ... we probably won't be changing that.No, I'm not saying that it's Beck's last stand; I'm just comparing this recent development with your belief concerning Beck and Gray being the two witnesses. As I said, we're a year early (you've suggested that their mission would end on Dec. 24, 2012) ...
... but I think the Restoring Courage rally could certainly lead to other Beck appearances in Jerusalem next year that could coincide with the 2012 date.
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