The Rapture IS NOT literal.

[hybrid]

Proper grammar, starting the sentence with a capital.

if god is spirit and eternal and indestructible, then why do you say some spirits can be destroyed? can god be destroyed? can spirit be destroyed? how do you understand spirit anyway?

 

[daq]

That's some hermeneutic. . .and some serious misapplication of texts.

Context is not taken from other books in the Bible.
Context is taken from the passage of Scripture in which the verse (1Co 15:50) is located (1Co 15:35-50).

Context and parallel are not the same thing.
Let's stay with the context.

Mt 24:38--25:1 is not a parallel of 1Co 15:50.

Why did you not also include the parable of the talents along with the parable of the ten virgins in Mt?
There is no separation between them, just as there is no separation between the parables of the faithful wise servant and the ten virgins.

The three points presented in Mt 24:38--25:1 are all the same; i.e., the unexpectedness of the coming of Christ, the catching up of believers, and the consequences of not being ready through faith for Jesus' coming.

It has nothing to do with 1Co 15:50, which is the conclusion of the discussion on the nature of the transformed resurrection bodies of believers.

You do not understand the NT Scriptures. Mt 24:38--25:1 is not the context for 1Co 15:50, not is it a parallel.

That's some serious boot strapping.
I can boot strap verses together and prove there is no God.

In the faith,
Calre

And Jesus did not preach to the Gentiles.

He commissioned the apostles to do that (Mt 28:18-20).

In the faith,
Clare

See what I mean Hillsage? This one has been taught by the dispensational minded teachers to use big words like ''hermeneutics'' to effectively carve up the Passover Lamb-Word into sections so that they may take only those portions which they desire, (and they also call it ''rightly dividing the Word'' which is also out of context). Yet in the Book which I read we are to eat all of the Passover Lamb; with both the good and the bad, the sweetness and the bitterness, even with the bitter herbs prescribed; and we are to leave none of it till the morning come, both myself and all that are in my house. So by their own ''hermeneutic'' they come to the conclusion that Yeshua ''Did NOT preach to the Gentiles'' and by this they also effectively cut themselves off from most of the Gospel teachings and words of Yeshua because, after all; if Yeshua did not preach unto Gentiles then they have carved out for themselves a concocted separate ''age'' which they imagine to have dawned with the conversion of Paulos in his time. Yet all of this nonsense flies in the face of the fact that the woman of Matthew 15:24, (which I quoted from) is a heathen, Gentile, Canaanite woman from the regions of Tyre and Zidon:

Matthew 15:24 KJV
21. Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And [Also] her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Do we understand that a ''dog'' sitting at the feet of the Master for one day is better than a king who knows him not? Mary sat at his feet and soaked up his doctrine, (that part which would not be taken from her) and she had seven devils cast out of her. Notice also that ''worship'' was not the point of the passage and it did not change the stance or the mindset of Yeshua. Surely in a sense this Gentile-Canaanite woman of Tyre was ''raptured'' when she came before the Master, and she had an epiphany, realizing that it was her own mindset that needed to be altered, and so she was willing to become a ''dog'' sitting at the feet of the Master, waiting for crumbs to fall from his table. And when she revealed a true change of heart and mind she was then, and only then, grafted into the lost sheep of the house of Israel: and that was BY FAITH. This is not to say that the Jews do not need to undergo the same process, (which is why it is so much more difficult). Nicodemus is living proof that all must go through the same process of change of heart and mindset. Nicodemus was a master-teacher and Pharisee of Israel, (also meaning that he surely had all of Torah memorized) yet there he is in the Gospel of John groping in darkness; coming to the Master by night, begging for crumbs of truth. And so Nicodemus was also figuratively ''raptured'' and eventually born from above: for no Pharisee and teacher of Israel would have taken up a dead body at the evening dawning of a high Shabbat Passover knowing it would have defiled him for the full seven days of Unleavened Bread; that is, unless the same one truly loved Yeshua.

 

[Clare73]

I am Orthodox, like I said earlier, we do not accept Rapture Theology
as presented in sources similar to the Left Behind.

I couldn't agree with you more!

But that is not the Biblical rapture, that's a vain fancy of man's imagination.

The Biblial rapture is at the end of time, the end of the world.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

then maybe you should explain what do you mean by "END of TIME"?
is it literal or metaphorical?

The end of time is the second coming of Christ, the general resurrection, the final judgment, and then for those who believe in Jesus Christ, life in eternity in the new heavens and new earth
which were previously destroyed by fire (2Pe 3:9-15).

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

At the time these words were written, no one knew what was in the clouds. Do you think Heaven is in the clouds? In outer space? Does Jesus come down from anywhere, and if he did, who would be the lucky Nation to witness it?

Jesus said he came down from heaven (Jn 6:38, 42, 62).

How can I put this delicately?

I don't need man's view of the clear word of God.
It is clear and plain in itself, and not subject to human alteration.

Jesus was hidden by a cloud when he returned to heaven (Ac 1:9).
And I see no reason not to believe that he will appear in the clouds when he returns,
just as the word of God states (Mt 24:30; 1Th 4:17).

Gospel of Thomas
(113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
<Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."

Heaven is within us and all around us. We see (it) through a glass darkly, yet face to face. Spirit exists as matter exists. It is why our spirit is subjected to spiritual things.........like sin. The Holy Spirit, angel, demons, Jesus himself is spirit. We are flesh. There is not up/down. In/out. We are spirit/soul living in matter body. Jesus was the same and reanimated body. Spirit control all matter. We only control our matter, but with enough faith could control all matter (move mountains).

All matter will die. Spirit isn't matter and will live eternal.

What about Christ's resurrected body composed of the matter of "flesh and bones" (Lk 24:36-39). Does it die?

And the "Gospel of Thomas" is not canonical, to be received with faith.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

See what I mean Hillsage? This one has been taught by the dispensational minded teachers to use big words like ''hermeneutics''

You did not answer any of the points I presented.

You make it hard to take you seriously.

This may explain why:

No, I don't serve the God of Moses/Yahweh, nor do I serve the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob/El Shaddai.

EXO 6:2 God/'elohiym spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD/Yehovah;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty El Shadday, but by My name, LORD/Yehovah, I did not make Myself known to them.

And yet, by serving the Most High God/El Elyon as Jesus did, I serve them both. And even as "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" So also am I, not grafted into that which is fleshly Israel...though fully grafted into that which is spiritual Israel.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Hillsage]

I think daq is saying that he/she is trying not to be overbearing,
not that you should try not to be overbearing.

In the faith,
Clare

And that is exactly how I took it.

He/she (? you're correct, I've assumed 'he') may be "TRYING", but as I read his/her posts I can't help but feel that many readers would assume 'arrogance' on his/her part. And arrogance is part of the definition of 'overbearing'. But I also recognize that there is fine line of judgment between 'arrogance', which is bad, and 'assurance' which is good. But deception is simply a reality for all of us in our doctrinal stances...IMO anyway.

 

[interpreter]

Wait, so the Church will be left behind and the evil ones will be taken in rapture? lol jk

The bad guys lives are taken. Christians are left alive to rule with Jesus and the Church in a 1000 year glorious reign of the Church.

 

[daq]

You did not answer any of the points I presented.

You make it hard to take you seriously.

This may explain why:

No, I don't serve the God of Moses/Yahweh, nor do I serve the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob/El Shaddai.

EXO 6:2 God/'elohiym spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD/Yehovah;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty El Shadday, but by My name, LORD/Yehovah, I did not make Myself known to them.
And yet, by serving the Most High God/El Elyon as Jesus did, I serve them both. And even as "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" So also am I, not grafted into that which is fleshly Israel...though fully grafted into that which is spiritual Israel.

In the faith,
Clare

Resorting to lies and defamation of character because you have no argument from Scripture? Anyone can go back and see that those words belong to Hillsage.

 

[Hillsage]

See what I mean Hillsage? This one has been taught by the dispensational minded teachers to use big words like ''hermeneutics''

When in Rome...and these forums don't seem to far removed at times. You, on the other hand don't ever use words that nobody understands...right?...Wrong. I'd say Clare is just doing what 'the nominal church' has deemed so important...to prove you're 'smart' enough to be right.

Yet in the Book which I read we are to eat all of the Passover Lamb; with both the good and the bad, the sweetness and the bitterness, even with the bitter herbs prescribed; and we are to leave none of it till the morning come, both myself and all that are in my house.

So, are you talking physically, or spiritually? Because I am not under the OT or the covenant of death. I am not unlike MOST JEWS who live in Israel. When one visits there they find that they do not try to follow TORAH! WHY? Because the traditions and commandments of men/pharisees with their 'ORAL TORAH' has claimed equal value to the 'WRITTEN TORAH', and in doing so; They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; . Burdens so heavy the Jews don't even try.

So by their own ''hermeneutic'' they come to the conclusion that Yeshua ''Did NOT preach to the Gentiles'' and by this they also effectively cut themselves off from most of the Gospel teachings and words of Yeshua because, after all; if Yeshua did not preach unto Gentiles then they have carved out for themselves a concocted separate ''age'' which they imagine to have dawned with the conversion of Paulos in his time. Yet all of this nonsense flies in the face of the fact that the woman of Matthew 15:24, (which I quoted from) is a heathen, Gentile, Canaanite woman from the regions of Tyre and Zidon:

But as I read those texts, I see nothing about him PREACHING to her.

And when she revealed a true change of heart and mind she was then, and only then, grafted into the lost sheep of the house of Israel: and that was BY FAITH. This is not to say that the Jews do not need to undergo the same process, (which is why it is so much more difficult).

for no Pharisee and teacher of Israel would have taken up a dead body at the evening dawning of a high Shabbat Passover knowing it would have defiled him for the full seven days of Unleavened Bread; that is, unless the same one truly loved Yeshua.

What "dead body" did he take up? You're 'overbearing' me again.

 

[daq]

for no Pharisee and teacher of Israel would have taken up a dead body at the evening dawning of a high Shabbat Passover knowing it would have defiled him for the full seven days of Unleavened Bread; that is, unless the same one truly loved Yeshua.

What "dead body" did he take up? You're 'overbearing' me again.

Perhaps that is why some might construe me as being ''overbearing'' because the things I speak are from the Scripture but I cannot possibly quote every passage. Yet that does not mean that I ''make things up as I go''. Also it is funny that I received an email from an old friend a few days back asking about something. So I told that friend that currently I had been hanging out here in the Unorthodox Theology Forum where we might discuss the matter, posting a link in the email to this forum. The same friend wrote back that they could not find any postings of mine here. Perhaps ''overbearing'' is in the mind of the ''overburdened''?

As for Nicodemus he and Yoseph took up the body of Yeshua:

John 19:38-40 KJV
38. And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

 

[sculleywr]

I couldn't agree with you more!

But that is not the Biblical rapture, that's a vain fancy of man's imagination.

The Biblial rapture is at the end of time, the end of the world.

In the faith,
Clare

the resurrection of the Dead and the bringing into Christ of all living is not the end of the world. That is the judgment period, where the goats will be separated from the sheep. After this, the world is recreated, perfect and whole.

 

[sculleywr]

The bad guys lives are taken. Christians are left alive to rule with Jesus and the Church in a 1000 year glorious reign of the Church.

Actually, His Kingdom will never end. Daniel 2:44
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

The Nicene Creed:
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ...Who will come again in glory to judge both the living and the dead. Whose kingdom will have no end.

 

[Clare73]

the resurrection of the Dead and the bringing into Christ of all living is not the end of the world. That is the judgment period, where the goats will be separated from the sheep. After this, the world is recreated, perfect and whole.

It's the end of the fallen world as we know it, where death reigns.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Actually, His Kingdom will never end. Daniel 2:44
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

The Nicene Creed:
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ...Who will come again in glory to judge both the living and the dead. Whose kingdom will have no end.

Yes, that is the invisible kingdom within you (Lk :20-21) set up at Christ's first coming during the past Roman empire.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Hillsage]

Perhaps that is why some might construe me as being ''overbearing'' because the things I speak are from the Scripture but I cannot possibly quote every passage.

That was not my reason saying you were though. It is all the Hebrew that I have to interpolate. I personally don't think Jesus is going to refuse to answer my prayer, but he will answer yours, because you call him Yeshua. That's like saying my friend 'Bob' won't answer me as quick as you because you call him 'Robert'. My opinion on all the Hebrew stuff is, I AM NOT HEBREW. And I'm not a Hebrew/Jew wannabe either. No offense intended Bro...or Sis (Might want to clear that one up for me/us. )

The same friend wrote back that they could not find any postings of mine here. Perhaps ''overbearing'' is in the mind of the ''overburdened''?

Your friend is "overburdened"??? Are you saying you shouldn't have given the address to him then?

As for Nicodemus he and Yoseph took up the body of Yeshua:

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that one. But then I also have received teaching that 'Good Friday' is a myth, and that's why it requires all the gymnastics to prove 3 days/nights in the grave. But Saturday wasn't the only Sabbath day either. Maybe that's what you were referring to. If it is, then you make a huge assumption concerning the ability of people here to see through that 'veil' again.

Off/ON topic: In case I haven't made it clear, I believed STRONGLY in the rapture...but quit doing so...LONG before 'The Late Great Planet Earth' came out with its 2nd, 3rd, ??th revisions due to failed predictions. And yet, no one cries "False teacher/prophet!" And good ole Hal just keeps beating that drum to the bank.

 

[Phantasman]

Jesus said he came down from heaven (Jn 6:38, 42, 62).

How can I put this delicately?

I don't need man's view of the clear word of God.
It is clear and plain in itself, and not subject to human alteration.

Jesus was hidden by a cloud when he returned to heaven (Ac 1:9).
And I see no reason not to believe that he will appear in the clouds when he returns,
just as the word of God states (Mt 24:30; 1Th 4:17).


What about Christ's resurrected body composed of the matter of "flesh and bones" (Lk 24:36-39). Does it die?

And the "Gospel of Thomas" is not canonical, to be received with faith.

In the faith,
Clare

Then you keep looking to the clouds, sister. And my prayer is one of them will host your savior. And read the books you deem to inspire you, but let no man tell you which ones are truth and which ones are not, which is what you do when you accept a canon. Years from now how can we tell if men would Canonize the Qu'ran with the New Testament to be read in our schools, and Christians would become the new Gnostics. It just doesn't feel spiritual to me that 300 years after Christ dies, some men seem worthy enough to choose for all mankind. I don't trust the same influences that killed the savior and imprisoned Paul.......... the Empire of Rome.

 

[sculleywr]

Yes, that is the invisible kingdom within you (Lk :20-21) set up at Christ's first coming during the past Roman empire.

In the faith,
Clare

So an invisible kingdom will replace the physical kingdoms? Nah...That's not even if we take it and twist it a little. It speaks of a physical kingdom. Chiliasm first showed up on the fourth century, and was recognized for what it was, a false doctrine. Christ will establish a never-ending physical kingdom on Earth. That, or the Bible made some very big errors

 

[sculleywr]

It's the end of the fallen world as we know it, where death reigns.

In the faith,
Clare

Death no longer reigns, for in Christ, none shall see death.

 

[daq]

I think daq is saying that he/she is trying not to be overbearing,
not that you should try not to be overbearing.

In the faith,
Clare

And that is exactly how I took it.

He/she (? you're correct, I've assumed 'he') may be "TRYING", but as I read his/her posts I can't help but feel that many readers would assume 'arrogance' on his/her part. And arrogance is part of the definition of 'overbearing'. But I also recognize that there is fine line of judgment between 'arrogance', which is bad, and 'assurance' which is good. But deception is simply a reality for all of us in our doctrinal stances...IMO anyway.

That was not my reason saying you were though. It is all the Hebrew that I have to interpolate. I personally don't think Jesus is going to refuse to answer my prayer, but he will answer yours, because you call him Yeshua. That's like saying my friend 'Bob' won't answer me as quick as you because you call him 'Robert'. My opinion on all the Hebrew stuff is, I AM NOT HEBREW. And I'm not a Hebrew/Jew wannabe either. No offense intended Bro...or Sis (Might want to clear that one up for me/us. )

Your friend is "overburdened"??? Are you saying you shouldn't have given the address to him then?

Why with the carnal minded does it always turn into a personal assault?
When will they learn they cannot stab spirit with a kitchen knife?
My friend is not the one who said I was overbearing ...
Where have I posted any Hebrew whatsoever?
But so that you not also be found a liar ...

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