The Rapture is not Biblical, False Doctrine? But accepted?

[Jonathan Mathews]

There is a false doctrine surrounding the idea of Rapture. The idea is that God will gather you before the great tribulation if your a Christian - and that you will not have to be on earth during that time.

Mark 13 - the olivet discourse.

Pay special attention to verse 24-27 which implies the gathering of Gods people occurs after the great tribulation not before.

Interestingly to note, in Mark 13, Jesus is speaking to Jews in Jerusalem about fleeing Jerusalem when the Anti-Christ comes, to flee to the mountains, and be rescued by the Returning Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 13:14), "coming in clouds with great glory" (Mark 13:26). It makes one wonder if He is prophesying, not to any Christians, but specifically to the 144,000 Israeli/Jewish Christians that remain on earth after the "snatching up/rapture/Harpazo" of the "multitudes from every tribe, nation, and tongue" (see below)

While it goes too far to say Christians will NOT suffer Tribulation, it ALSO goes too far to say that Christians will suffer ALL Tribulation.

The answer is simply this: Christians may face the Wrath of men in the end times, but they CANNOT EVER suffer the Wrath of God (ex: Revelation's plagues on the wicked, etc), because Jesus Christ is the all-sufficient Atoning Sacrifice for all who believe. Can God re-punish the sin of a person who possesses the very Righteousness of God Himself (as obtained in Jesus Christ)???? No. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Also, if you read thru Revelation, a book placed in progressing chronological order (which only has breakout summations of time), you'll notice that the general body of believers (from every tribe and nation) are seen in Heaven by the end of the 6th Seal (Revelation 7), but NOT mention again on earth after the 7th and Final Seal is broken (Revelation 8+), containing/releasing the 7 bowls of wrath. The only believers that are mentioned as remaining on earth from the 7th seal onward, (possibly thru to the end of the Great Tribulation aka the start of the "First Resurrection Millennial Reign of Christ) are the 144,000 sealed from the 12 Tribes of Israel. All other believers APPEAR already in Heaven.

 

[Hank77]

Interestingly to note, in Mark 13, Jesus is speaking to Jews in Jerusalem about fleeing Jerusalem when the Anti-Christ comes, to flee to the mountains, and be rescued by the Returning Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 13:14), "coming in clouds with great glory" (Mark 13:26). It makes one wonder if He is prophesying, not to any Christians, but specifically to the 144,000 Israeli/Jewish Christians that remain on earth after the "snatching up/rapture/Harpazo" of the "multitudes from every tribe, nation, and tongue" (see below)

Where does Mark 13 say anything about antichrist?

 

[JellyQuest]

You have just proven your bigotry. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ himself. The name "Catholic" was given to the Church in 107AD by St. Ignatius.

So, regardless of all your pretense at study, you have failed due to your bias. It is also pride and arrogance to think that you "devoted a large portion of my life to conclusively proving that religious leaders from various groups are simply lying about their histories". And God has appointed you to expose all these people based upon your opinions and misinterpretations. That is a laugh.

I became Catholic partially because the Church is the most honest about its history than any other. The pretense to otherwise has been concocted by anti-Catholics. This can be proven.

The idea that a person biased against the Catholic Church and fails to understand her history even in the slightest is the one to comment on her history is sheer nonsense.

You have proved conclusively that you do not know much and refuse to see the evidence, but instead only interested in defending your puny opinion, as well as proven a HUGH pride and arrogance. Goodbye.

In obedience to St. Paul in Titus 3:10-11, you are on ignore.

In short. untrue.

 

[Biblewriter]

This thread actually concerns itself with the question of the rapture. Any discussion about what the early church fathers wrote is a discussion of how we interpret their writings. So you are merely giving your interpretation of their writings. And your interpretation is just that - your interpretation. And a great many others who have read these writings do not agree with your interpretation.

That is a standard excuse used by people who do not wish to accept proof, when it is presented.

I think the scope of prophecy is larger than you realize, or care to admit.

Actually, parts of Daniel and parts of the Revelation speak of the gentile nations. But aside from these, and a few scattered passages in the other sixteen books of Bible prophecy, the gentile nations are almost always mentioned only in regard to their relationship with Judah, or in regard to their punishment for crimes committed against Judah.

 

[DingDing]

Where does Mark 13 say anything about antichrist?

Mark 13 speaks of the AoD (Mark 13:14) and the ensuing tribulation. Other passages make it clear that this AoD involves antichrist.

 

[Hank77]

Mark 13 speaks of the AoD (Mark 13:14) and the ensuing tribulation. Other passages make it clear that this AoD involves antichrist.

What are a couple of those passages? Daniel 9 doesn't. Luke and Matthew don't.

 

[DingDing]

What are a couple of those passages? Daniel 9 doesn't. Luke and Matthew don't.

John mentions the antichrist in 1 John 2, and more detail is given in Revelation 12 and Revelation 13. The language Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians 2 also indicates antichrist. I might could find more, but these were all I could think of on short notice.

 

[seadog4109]

From the pamphlet, The Rapture:



The Catholic and biblically correct view:



Pope St. Peter gives a balanced view:



From the Catechism:

See Mark 7: 6-8 & Matthew 15: 8-10

...they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.

 

[JellyQuest]

i never ever take what the rcc says . as it speaks to often in opposition to the scriptures .i consider it to be a wholly unreliable source

 

[dqhall]

There is some confusion between Christ's second coming, day of judgement of the quick and the dead and some Revelation theories about a rapture before Jesus' second coming and the subsequent day of judgement when God might sort out the good and the bad like a fisherman sorted out the fish caught in his net.

Jesus did not tell us of his intention to put Satan in a pit for a thousand years and then let him go as the writer of Revelation described. Satan is a metaphor representing temptation, disorder/chaos and evil doing. Satan is not a physical creature that can be bound in a pit.

Some of the early church leaders objected to Revelation even going as far to testify it was a forgery not written by the apostle John. These objections were recorded in Eusebius Pamphilus' fourth century work, "Eccelsiastical History."

 

[Kenneth Redden]

Seen too many instant healings to consider the science of the universe as an authority over he whom created it.and who has all authority and dominion over it.

No, science is not "an authority;" it is the requirement, sort of like living a perfect life according to Jewish Law. It is, "the standard."
Anyway, I wouldn't say the science of this Universe has an authority over Christ; necessarily, just us. He lets it happen.

 

[DingDing]

That is a standard excuse used by people who do not wish to accept proof, when it is presented.

There is so much scholarship out there of much higher quality than anything you have posted (like your post #48 for example) and which does not align with your interpretations. Your claim above is laughable. How can you think anyone will take you seriously when you put yourself and your mediocre-at-best writings on such a high pedestal? I've seen nothing which puts you and your thoughts above anyone else (or even at the same level in many cases) - except for your own high opinion of yourself. IF you want to read what real scholars have written, it is out there like I told you before. I've read too much quality stuff which does not line up with your claims.

 

[cantool]

There's evidence of early church fathers teaching pre-tribulation doctrine. This is one.

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

 

[cantool]

I am never surprised to see that anyone, in any era, can find evidences to support their cause.
To suffer none, suffer some, or suffer a lot; which part did Jesus teach? He said there would always be tribulation. Didn't He? Didn't He also specify that the Kingdom of God would not happen in an observable manner? How numerous are the teachers (and without number, their disciples) that give the children of men a new thing to believe in; forget that Jesus taught of His Father's kingdom to be established within each believing person (which has been so skewed to become this "Rapture" theory), that has been born from above; now to be secretly snatched from the earth, (the earth that God gave man).
It would behoove each of us to not purport to be some 'armchair' scholar that has interpreted what the Living God has written. Ever!
[Oh, foolish Galatians]

 

[Biblewriter]

There is so much scholarship out there of much higher quality than anything you have posted (like your post #48 for example) and which does not align with your interpretations. Your claim above is laughable. How can you think anyone will take you seriously when you put yourself and your mediocre-at-best writings on such a high pedestal? I've seen nothing which puts you and your thoughts above anyone else (or even at the same level in many cases) - except for your own high opinion of yourself. IF you want to read what real scholars have written, it is out there like I told you before. I've read too much quality stuff which does not line up with your claims.

You are welcome to your opinion. I have presented facts, not opinion.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

So based on posts on this thread the false teaching of the secret rapture is attributed to the "early fathers of the church". This is the same church that persecuted millions for not believing as they did in the dark ages. They killed millions according to history. So why would I want to use that church's teaching as a means of salvation.

Why do you you think the LORD allowed the reformation if "the church" had the everlasting Gospel?

How about a Biblical example.

God's chosen people, the Jewish nation, were to take the Gospel to the world, that was their duty. They failed miserably at it to the point that the Lord came to this earth as the SON OF MAN to point out their errors and to give the Gospel to the Gentiles which the Jews had not done. (This was not his only reason for coming as the SON OF MAN)
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Notice what Jesus told the Disciples,
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Gospel went to the House of Israel until they sealed their fate with the stoning of Steven. This completed the seventy week prophecy "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people" and the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

The reformers were inspired by GOD to bring back the Gospel to man that "the church" had perverted just as the leaders of the Jewish nation had done.

So as for the early writings indicating a rapture what makes you think that Satan,who knows the scriptures better than anyone except GOD, has not been planting his deception of the TRUTH since the Garden of Eden. He deceived the Jewish leaders and has deceived the early "fathers of the church" whom you all seem to like to quote for Biblical truth.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

Do you know what, “roll up the heavens like a scroll and appear,” means. I certainly hope not, because if you did; we wouldn’t be here, lol !
But, actually; this may be a reference to the KJV Bible. First via, "coat", which is "without seam, woven from the top throughout", in John 19:23 and second, using "superscription," that was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew", on the cross at his crucifixion. This is like the Greek, and English, and Hebrew, of the KJV Bible today. And there is our word, "also," in Luke 23:38.

 

[DingDing]

So based on posts on this thread the false teaching of the secret rapture is attributed to the "early fathers of the church". This is the same church that persecuted millions for not believing as they did in the dark ages. They killed millions according to history. So why would I want to use that church's teaching as a means of salvation.

...

Hello OHC,

The "early fathers of the church" preceded the 4th century church, which became the forerunner for the persecution that you cite. Some of the "early fathers of the church" were little more than 100 years after the Apostles. Their teachings had not yet been corrupted.

 

[DingDing]

Do you know what, “roll up the heavens like a scroll and appear,” means. I certainly hope not, because we wouldn’t be here if you did, lol !

Whatever it means (and I have my opinion); it will be obvious to all when it happens. So not having seen it (yet), I know that there will be no mistaking it when it happens. Not a chance.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Happy Sabbath to You all. May the new year bring the Lord Jesus Christ back to receive his faithful.