The Rapture - heretical teaching

[Biblewriter]

Not when you understand what Paul is saying Biblewriter. The "gifts and calling" are the gifts of the Spirit and the calling for salvation. This applies to Israel here, but this is also true of all believers. This doesn't make your case!

Your theological constraint forbids you to admit that this was said explicitly about that portion of the physical Israel that had refused to believe in Jesus. But whether you admit it or not, the exact words are "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29)

This Psalm is of the "Davidic Covenant". A covenant God made with David ALONE and NOT all of Israel. The Psalm itself says so! This is the promise of Christ as Peter tells the Jews clearly in his Pentecost sermon in Acts 2. Christ is on the throne of David! God has fulfilled this Biblewriter! Jesus is Lord!!!

This will not occur until the last day though.

Thank you for finally admitting what I have been saying all along. Yes, of course it will not occur until the last day. For that is when the ancient promises will all be fulfilled. That is the time spoken of in all the prophecies I continually quote.

However it has nothing to do with the Old Covenant. This is done out of God's grace. He owes Israel NOTHING, they broke the covenant and Jesus instituted a New Covenant. The Old Covenant ended at the cross! All the promises are fulfilled in Christ! Romans 15 tells you that...read it.

All the promises are indeed in and through Christ. But these promises include things that Christ will do after He returns.

Biblewriter this is really just a terrible rendering of Hosea. Paul is quoting Hosea to show there is ONE Israel made up of Jews and Gentiles. The apostle is backing up his point that "they are NOT all Israel that are descended from Israel.

You're making that case and you don't even know it. However your view is diametrically opposite of the point the apostle is making. We KNOW this by how he sums up the argument at Romans 9:30-33:
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
This conclusion by the apostle is showing Israel fell short Biblewriter!

As I told you before in another thread...you have missed the boat...you, Darby, Scofield, and anyone else that are saying this is what the passage is teaching. It's teaching there is a "Spiritual Israel" made up of Jews and Gentiles!

Your concept of a "spiritual Israel" is simply absent from the scriptures. You cannot show this in any scripture whatsoever. All you can show is scriptures that you think mean this or that you think imply this idea.

Yes, the scriptures repeatedly say that Israel fell short. But they also say that God will do everything necessary to bring them back to repentance. And by everything necessary, I do not mean He will try to do it by every possible means. I mean He has plainly declared that He will not only do it, but that He will succeed. God never "tries" to do anything. He succeeds at everything He does. And in this case, the last terrible tribulation is designed to, and will successfully, bring a remnant of them back to true repentance. And the rest will be destroyed.

This brings us back to why this is on topic for this thread. As the purpose of the tribulation is to bring Israel to repentance, it is not about or for the church. It is about and for Israel. That is why the church will be removed before God begins this last work, which will take place in Israel's sevetieth week as described by the Holy Spirit through Daniel.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:29

6th seal

"And the stars...fell..."

The 6th seal is opened and the great tribulation is over -sun black - stars fall.

 

[SwordFall]

The 6th seal is opened and the great tribulation is over -sun black - stars fall.

Translation: God goes away for a bit and the angels commence.

 

[vinsight4u]

Put Isaiah 2 and the 6th seal together - Isaiah 2:19 tells why the wicked will go into the rocks - to hide.


for fear of the LORD
and
for the glory of His majesty

when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth


6th seal - every mountain and island move


Isaiah 13:13
"I will shake the heavens and the earth shall remove out of her place..."

6th seal/
"...every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[vinsight4u]

Translation: God goes away for a bit and the angels commence.

Jesus only comes to the air in the time of the 6th seal. So, yes, He then leaves to go with His bride back to heaven. The wife/all saints put on righteousness-eternal life. Mystery, Babylon has been burned by the ten kings.

Rev. 7 takes John into the time of a new vision. This vision will begin and lead up to the events of the 6th seal.

Rev. 7:1
"And after these things..."

John is now starting to relate a new vision to us.
He has not yet watched the seventh seal be opened.

This new vision will reveal that seven angels have come as ascending from the east to hand off plagues to the four angels - and the seven will seal the 144,000. The seven gave the seven first plagues away angels will then go back and report as to how many they sealed on the earth.

The seven angels give their report before God, and the four angels can begin the plagues on the earth (the trumpet plagues).

The seven angels sound the trumpets in heaven, but the plagues are done by angels in the earth area.

This is why John tells us that the four angels - to whom it was given to hurt. /They were given the hurtful events by the seven angels that had come as ascending from the east.

Rev. 7:1
/This is where John introduces us to four angels.
Rev. 8:2
/This is where John tells more about a set of earlier introduced to us seven angels.
/This means that seven angels sealed the 144,000, then they returned to stand before God and give their task done report.

This is like what happens in Ezekiel 9 at the very end of the chapter.
Ezekiel knew a report had been given by the holy being that had set the mark on people so they would be protected from the soon coming Babylonians.

 

[ebedmelech]

Your theological constraint forbids you to admit that this was said explicitly about that portion of the physical Israel that had refused to believe in Jesus. But whether you admit it or not, the exact words are "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29)

Actually you have a "dispensational block" Biblewriter. The Davidic Covenant is with David alone! You really need to read 2 Samuel 7:8-17 and understand it. Israel definitely benefits but it's because of David, as the Lord gives Israel rest from their enemies under Solomon as Israel reaches the zenith of their power. The covenant is about the line of Christ

Thank you for finally admitting what I have been saying all along. Yes, of course it will not occur until the last day. For that is when the ancient promises will all be fulfilled. That is the time spoken of in all the prophecies I continually quote.

All the promises are indeed in and through Christ. But these promises include things that Christ will do after He returns.

I never denied this and you cannot find one place that I denied Israel the restoration. What I reject is restoration is about the land. Once again the "dispensational block" won't allow you to realize the land is figurative of etenity. These are the failures of literal interpretation. You have quoted prophecies already fulfilled many times Biblewriter, that have nothing to do with the future, because the future "Israel" started at Pentecost and is still being gathered as anyone becomes a citizen of the kingdom of God!

Your concept of a "spiritual Israel" is simply absent from the scriptures. You cannot show this in any scripture whatsoever. All you can show is scriptures that you think mean this or that you think imply this idea.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. What really goes on in your refusal to see this is more the years of the dispensational paradigm. You have a blindness when it comes to this matter...and it looms large.

Yes, the scriptures repeatedly say that Israel fell short. But they also say that God will do everything necessary to bring them back to repentance. And by everything necessary, I do not mean He will try to do it by every possible means. I mean He has plainly declared that He will not only do it, but that He will succeed. God never "tries" to do anything. He succeeds at everything He does. And in this case, the last terrible tribulation is designed to, and will successfully, bring a remnant of them back to true repentance. And the rest will be destroyed.

Yes...but you missed the tribulation, which led to the destruction of the temple. Darby did too.

This brings us back to why this is on topic for this thread. As the purpose of the tribulation is to bring Israel to repentance, it is not about or for the church. It is about and for Israel. That is why the church will be removed before God begins this last work, which will take place in Israel's sevetieth week as described by the Holy Spirit through Daniel.

It really bring us back to the major reason you have just spoken error. It is for the people of Israel, and Romans makes that clear. It is not about the land, which is why Jesus nor the apostles EVER said one word about the land. God doesn't even care about the land. Listen to Peter and not Darby:
1 Peter 2:9, 10
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Literal interpretation causes one to really miss how marvelous this really is!

 

[Jack Terrence]

Your concept of a "spiritual Israel" is simply absent from the scriptures. You cannot show this in any scripture whatsoever. All you can show is scriptures that you think mean this or that you think imply this idea.

Though I do not like the term "spiritual Israel," it is a FACT that believing Jews AND Gentiles are called the "children of Israel" in the scriptures (Romans 9:22-28).

Yes, the scriptures repeatedly say that Israel fell short. But they also say that God will do everything necessary to bring them back to repentance. And by everything necessary, I do not mean He will try to do it by every possible means. I mean He has plainly declared that He will not only do it, but that He will succeed. God never "tries" to do anything. He succeeds at everything He does. And in this case, the last terrible tribulation is designed to, and will successfully, bring a remnant of them back to true repentance. And the rest will be destroyed.

The final remnant was saved in Paul's day (Romans 11:5-6). After that God made Israel's house "desolate" (Matthew 23:38). There are no descendants of Israel today. Every encyclopedia on earth affirms this.

Ashkenazis are not the descendants of the Ancient Israelites

You have been duped my friend. Your theology contradicts both biblical and anthropological fact.

 

[Biblewriter]

Though I do not like the term "spiritual Israel," it is a FACT that believing Jews AND Gentiles are called the "children of Israel" in the scriptures (Romans 9:22-28).

The only actual fact here is that is how you choose to interpret this passage. The scriptues simply do not say this, either in this passage or on any other. They only say things you interpret to mean that.

The final remnant was saved in Paul's day (Romans 11:5-6). After that God made Israel's house "desolate" (Matthew 23:38). There are no descendants of Israel today. Every encyclopedia on earth affirms this.

Ashkenazis are not the descendants of the Ancient Israelites

You have been duped my friend. Your theology contradicts both biblical and anthropological fact.

The actual words of God are far more factual that all the dictionaries on the world:

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jeremiah 31:10
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Ezekiel 11:17
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Ezekiel 20:34
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Ezekiel 20:41
25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
Ezekiel 28:25
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Ezekiel 34:12

The almighty and all knowing God has declared that He will gather them out of all the places where they have been scattered. So the fact that man does not know where, or even who, they are is meaningless. God knows who they are, and where they are. And that is the only one who counts.

 

[ebedmelech]

The almighty and all knowing God has declared that He will gather them out of all the places where they have been scattered. So the fact that man does not know where, or even who, they are is meaningless. God knows who they are, and where they are. And that is the only one who counts.

I just hope people go read those passages and really get what God is saying...because if they read them literally as you do...they won't really get what God has said through the prophet.

A good point to start would be as the apostle Paul speaks to the Corinthian church in 2 Corinthians 3 when it comes to understanding the "heart of stone".

God is amazing when you get what He's saying!

 

[Jack Terrence]

The only actual fact here is that is how you choose to interpret this passage. The scriptues simply do not say this, either in this passage or on any other. They only say things you interpret to mean that.

Denial is NOT rebuttal friend. Paul EXPLICITLY said that he was speaking about those who are CALLED, "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

Then he cites a series of verses from Hosea and Isaiah. The one in Isaiah says that the number of the children of Israel shall be the sand as the sea. Therefore, those who are CALLED, "not of Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" are the children of Israel whose number is as the sand of the sea.

There are a thousand old testament scriptures which show that Gentiles are given the name "Israel" after they come into salvation. The verse in Isaiah that Paul quotes is one example.

The actual words of God are far more factual that all the dictionaries on the world:

The almighty and all knowing God has declared that He will gather them out of all the places where they have been scattered. So the fact that man does not know where, or even who, they are is meaningless. God knows who they are, and where they are. And that is the only one who counts.

Ezekiel's visions were for those who came out of the Babylonian Exile (37:18-28). Chapter 12 EXPLICITLY says that Ezekiel's visions would be fulfilled IMMEDIATELY (12:21-28). God rebuked ancient Israel for saying that their fulfillment is postponed. This means that you also are rebuked by God.

 

[shturt678s]

The only actual fact here is that is how you choose to interpret this passage. The scriptues simply do not say this, either in this passage or on any other. They only say things you interpret to mean that.

Rom.9:27, I render "sons of Israel" refer to the 'left over,' ie, 'remnant' of the spiritual Jews - de not an adversative where vs.25, 26 refer to the Gentiles, and now Paul refers to the Jews; but since both Hosea and Isaiah speak of the Jews, and the latter adds a vital point as to numbers, ie, long story cut short: Of the physical Israel only "the leftover" shall be found among the true Israel, and shall be saved.

The actual words of God are far more factual that all the dictionaries on the world:

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jeremiah 31:10
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Ezekiel 11:17
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Ezekiel 20:34
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Ezekiel 20:41
25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
Ezekiel 28:25
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Ezekiel 34:12

The almighty and all knowing God has declared that He will gather them out of all the places where they have been scattered. So the fact that man does not know where, or even who, they are is meaningless. God knows who they are, and where they are. And that is the only one who counts.

Rom.9:22-28 rough passage, ie, not that I have it.

Old Jack

 

[Biblewriter]

Denial is NOT rebuttal friend. Paul EXPLICITLY said that he was speaking about those who are CALLED, "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

Then he cites a series of verses from Hosea and Isaiah. The one in Isaiah says that the number of the children of Israel shall be the sand as the sea. Therefore, those who are CALLED, "not of Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" are the children of Israel whose number is as the sand of the sea.

There are a thousand old testament scriptures which show that Gentiles are given the name "Israel" after they come into salvation. The verse in Isaiah that Paul quotes is one example.

If you know that there are thousands of such verses, quote just one. You cannot, because there is not even one. EVEN AS THE PASSAGE YOU ARE DISCUSSING NEVER SAYS THAT THE GENTILES ARE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. THAT IS NOTHING BUT YOUR INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IT MEANS.

Ezekiel's visions were for those who came out of the Babylonian Exile (37:18-28). Chapter 12 EXPLICITLY says that Ezekiel's visions would be fulfilled IMMEDIATELY (12:21-28). God rebuked ancient Israel for saying that their fulfillment is postponed. This means that you also are rebuked by God.

It is pure interpretation that Ezekiel 37:18-28 refers to the return from Babylon. And that interpretation cannot even possible be correct. For this passage speaks of Judah And Israel being united under a one king. Judah returned, but Israel never did, and they have never had a king since that time.

Ezekiel 12 is not about that return, but about the exile, which indeed took place only a few years after Ezekiel spoke these words.

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 179:

Jesus comes to judge and reward the saints at the time of the 7th trumpet.

Then you are of the pre-wrath rapture view, instead of the post-tribulation rapture view?

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It is like if someone said "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

vinsight4u said in post 179:

The church waits for her crown at reward time.
She does not use carnal weapons for warfare.

That's right.

Under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), but killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3).

Under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39,44, Matthew 26:52; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c).

Believers don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for believers of what they are to do when they are physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). Believers are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23). During the future tribulation, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11). Obedient believers shouldn't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and shouldn't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but should hate their lives in this world if they are to retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38).

Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

vinsight4u said in post 179:

She is the bride/wife of Rev. 19 that returns as armies out of heaven for the battle time.

In Revelation 19:14, the original Greek word (ouranos, G3772) translated as "heaven" can refer to the "sky" (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 12:56), which will be the location of the literal clouds and air of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Revelation 19:14 refers to the already immortally-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7) descending with Jesus from the sky (the first heaven), where the church had been raptured to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

vinsight4u said in post 179:

Paul told how first will come the falling away and the man of sin be revealed.

That's right.

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[vinsight4u]

Then you are of the pre-wrath rapture view, instead of the post-tribulation rapture view?

I believe that the church leaves the planet/is changed with all saints before any of the seven full first round of vials is poured out by the once had seven trumpets job angels.
John saw the stars fall in the time of the 6th seal, and that is a sign that the tribulation is over.


sun black

stars of heaven fall


/Matthew 24
"Immediately after the tribulation...the stars of heaven shall fall..."


/How can you think that great tribulation is still going on after this part of the 6th seal? John only saw all of the stars fall once in the entire book of Revelation?

sun - darkened

This is not allowing for any of it to be lit/showing.

The 6th seal is when the whole sun is black.

The 5th seal is part of the great tribulation, and it ends in the time of the 6th seal is opened.

Matthew 24 tells that the tribes of the earth shall mourn.
The 6th seal has the people hding from His face.
Jesus told Pilate that they would see Him sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Rev. 1 tells about how He will come with clouds, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him.


Malachi 3 shows that when He appears - who shall be able to stand.

6th seal - who shall be able to stand.

I believe that the 7th trumpet is sounding by the time of the 6th seal has been opened.
I believe a voice heard in the time of the 3rd seal is showing that the man of sin that will become a ruler of Iraq by the 4th seal as indicated by the voice.

This would mean that trumpets have been going on during the seals..
The 4th seal rider links to the time of what was similar in the days of Babylon. Babylon scattered Israel when the king came with many ways to slay Israel.

sword - famine - pestilence

4th seal - has many ways to slay people
sword, hunger, death, beasts of the earth

 

[vinsight4u]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
/Matthew 25:29


6th seal/ Rev. 6

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
/6:13

 

[vinsight4u]

Mark 13:24
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.


6th seal

"I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts..."
/Isaiah 13:13


/In the 6th seal -every mountain and island was seen to move from their places.

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 195:

Matthew 24 tells that the tribes of the earth shall mourn.
The 6th seal has the people hding from His face.

The "face of him that sitteth on the throne" part of Revelation 6:16 isn't the world actually seeing the face of God sitting on the throne in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 4:2), but the world expressing its fear of dying during or immediately after the 6th-seal event. For seeing the face of God means death (Exodus 33:20).

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

vinsight4u said in post 195:

Matthew 24 tells that the tribes of the earth shall mourn.
The 6th seal has the people hding from His face.

Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

vinsight4u said in post 195:

I believe that the 7th trumpet is sounding by the time of the 6th seal has been opened.

Instead, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

 

[vinsight4u]

The people hiding in the time of the 6th seal are doing this hiding and crying out action after the tribulation is over against Israel/church.

Isaiah 2 shows this same time - it is when they cast away their idols.

The sun going dark and the stars falling come after the time of trouble against Israel/church.


Rev. 7 begins a new vision to reveal to John the missing pieces of what happens during the times of the seals that were just opened.
It is like John gets an overall view, and then gets some finer details that need to be mixed in to what he was shown as to the seals 1-6.

 

[shturt678s]

The "face of him that sitteth on the throne" part of Revelation 6:16 isn't the world actually seeing the face of God sitting on the throne in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 4:2), but the world expressing its fear of dying during or immediately after the 6th-seal event. For seeing the face of God means death (Exodus 33:20).

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Rev.6:12-17 is one of seven different places in Revelation reaches the absolute ending of the world after the 'tribulation' that technically began in 70 A.D. (Lk.21:24) ending at Rev.20:9, 10, ie, not much left in the future as we are at the end of the Tribulation, the great one that gathers all the tribulations together - all throughout the N.T. era loosely speaking.

Matt.24:6-14 give the events which constitute "the sign" of the end of the world then Jesus turns to the directions and warnings that pertain to the destruction of Jerusalem .

This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).



Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).



Instead, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Old Jack