The Rapture - heretical teaching

[shturt678s]

Here are two more challenging tests from the same site:

When did the last days begin?

The last days, end times began in 27 AD

Just need Position #4: Last days began at 70 A.D. (Lk.21:24; Rev.11:2)

Who is the ANTICHRIST?

Who is the Anti-Christ Interactive Study

Most likely have to agree to disagree, ie, received error 239?

Old Jack

 

[spiritandtruth2]

I seen this awhile back, and was hoping I could push your time forward to 96 A.D., and you were hoping I would put my Model T in reverse to 66 A.D. However my reverse went out awhile back, and have to push the ol' T to get it to backup.

Sore back,

Jack

Revelation was definitely written According to tradition, John went to Ephesus, where he wrote his Gospel and his three letters entitled the First, Second, and Third of John, about 98[bless and do not curse]C.E. Traditionally, it is believed that he died at Ephesus in about 100[bless and do not curse]C.E. during the reign of Emperor Trajan

The three books entitled the First, Second, and Third of John never mentions the Jewish way of worship, which gives us the clue, it had been destroyed in 70 C.E.

Throughout the three letters he wrote we find emphasized Christian unity.

 

[random person]

Most likely have to agree to disagree, ie, received error 239?

Old Jack

The page just needs to be refreshed is all. I tested them all after posting them. It will work. It has happened to me too.

 

[shturt678s]

Revelation was definitely written According to tradition, John went to Ephesus, where he wrote his Gospel and his three letters entitled the First, Second, and Third of John, about 98[bless and do not curse]C.E. Traditionally, it is believed that he died at Ephesus in about 100[bless and do not curse]C.E. during the reign of Emperor Trajan

The three books entitled the First, Second, and Third of John never mentions the Jewish way of worship, which gives us the clue, it had been destroyed in 70 C.E.

Throughout the three letters he wrote we find emphasized Christian unity.

Pretty much a , ie, Revelation 96 A.D. Gospel of John penned 80/85 A.D. Also penned after 80 A.D., ie, main thing Revelation penned after 70 A.D.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

 

[shturt678s]

The page just needs to be refreshed is all. I tested them all after posting them. It will work. It has happened to me too.

Will check it out later

 

[Biblewriter]

I invite you to take a close and thoughtful look at Romans 15 also. I will give you more verses AFTER you deal with Paul's application of the Hosea and the Isaiah passages to "US who are called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."
So far all you have done is deny it. But denial is NOT rebuttal. Show us that Paul was not calling believing Jews and Gentiles "the children of Israel."

Romans 15 is about the gentiles being called. It does not say, or even imply that these gentiles are Israel. It is not my responsibility to show what Paul was not saying. It is your responsibility to show even one place where Paul or any other inspired writer said that the church is Israel. This is something you most absolutely cannot do, because the scriptures simply do not say that, in Romans 15 or anywhere else.

Paul said that he was speaking about "US who are called, not only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles." Then he said, "As Hosea says," and then, "As Isaiah says." Then he quotes Isaiah who said,

"The number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea."


Paul builds upon this point by showing that the inclusion of the Gentiles is the reason that Israel is to become a great number.

You are mixing up wholly different passages of scripture. The last passage you tried to quote is not from Romans 15, but from Romans 9. But you quoted it incorrectly. What it actually says is, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved."

You are pretending that this is a prophecy that Israel will be as the sand of the sea, and imagining that this means the church. But that is not even what the prophecy was saying. It did not prophesy that the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea. It used that fact as the basis for what it actually prophesied, which was that even though there would be that many Israelites, only a remnant of Israel shall be saved.

In other words, if it wasn't for the inclusion of the Gentiles, then Israel would have become extinct.

"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become [extinct] like Sodom and Gomorrah."

The word "sabaoth" means "multitudes of peoples."

"Unless the Lord of multitudes of peoples had left us a seed, we would have become [extinct] like Sodom and Gomorrah."

Paul was VERY CLEAR! Had the Lord not included Gentiles into Israel, then Israel would have become extinct. But being that He is the Lord of multitudes of peoples He is able to make Israel great in number by bringing other peoples into Her.


Paul makes it VERY CLEAR that it is the inclusion of the Gentiles into Israel he is talking about.

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained unto righteousness."

This is exactly what I was talking about. Paul (but more correctly the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul did not say this. He only said things that you choose to interpret to mean this.

Read it carefully sir. The vision was concerned with the Babylonian exiles and their IMMEDIATE children. God told Ezekiel to go and tell THEM this (vss. 18 -28).

To make a long story short: Only a few wanted the promises and returned to Palestine after the Captivity, including the prince who was to reign over them. The prince who was to reign over them, who is mentioned in chapter 37, also went into the Captivity with them (12:10-12). They returned to Palestine and started to realize the promises. The work on Ezekiel's temple had begun by the decree of Cyrus the king. After the death of Cyrus his son Canbyses took the throne which created quite a mess. The construction of the temple halted, and the people lost interest and gave up their tribal identity and forfeited the land.

So even you admit that what was prophesied did not happen. Ase you saying that Gid made a mistake? Or are you saying that the prophesies of Gd will onky actually happen if man does what God wants him to do?

Q1. If you are correct that the promises had nothing to do with the Babylonian exiles, then why did the few that returned to Palestine start the construction of the temple?

Because they were Jews, and that is how Jews worship.

Q2. If it had nothing to do with the Babylonain exiles, but with some generation in the nebulus future, then how could the prince who was to reign over them after they returned from the Captivity also go into the Captivity with them?

This makes no sense whatsoever. Their prince went into captivity with them, and never returned. They never had a king after they returned. Israel and Judah were never re-united, as this prophecy clearly says. And the few israelites that did return never made anything even resembling the "very great army" of Ezekiel 37.

Ezekiel 12 is about Ezekiel's "EVERY VISION" beginning with the exile. Sorry to burst your bubble!

Yes. The fulfillment of "every vision" was "at hand." But God himself explains the delay on fulfillment of some prophecies by saying "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)

The prophecies whose fulfillment were about to take place (in human terms) were the prophecies of judgment on Israel, which took place around thirty of so years after these words were spoken. Ghe return you claim was the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 did not occur until about a hundred years after this prophecy.

You are wresting scripture.

 

[Bloodborn]

Not heretical.

1. Gods wrath is not for us, it's for the wicked.
2. The book of Revelation says that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth. If the Holy Spirit is alive in us then He would have to be removed from us.
3. The Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us according to scripture, so if that's the case and it is then obviously we will leave when He leaves.
4. Jesus already took our punishment for sin so why would we need a second punishment for our sin?
5. There's no reason for us to be here on the earth at this time because with no Holy Spirit to empower us we would be useless.
6. Just look at how God removes His people from HIS wrath. Look at Sodom and the story of Noah both instances here show Gods removal of the righteous before He brought destruction.

What if as a child you stole a piece of candy and your mom caught you and punished you for it and you apologized for it and never did it again. But let's say a month or two later your mom just out of nowhere says "remember that candy you stole?" and spanked you even worse than the first time she punished you.

That's why I can't see how all-millennium and any non-pre trib views make any sense. I do believe that scripture supports a "near trib" view. I believe we will see the birth pains and see some very interesting things take shape.

 

[random person]

Not heretical.

1. Gods wrath is not for us, it's for the wicked.
2. The book of Revelation says that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth. If the Holy Spirit is alive in us then He would have to be removed from us.
3. The Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us according to scripture, so if that's the case and it is then obviously we will leave when He leaves.
4. Jesus already took our punishment for sin so why would we need a second punishment for our sin?
5. There's no reason for us to be here on the earth at this time because with no Holy Spirit to empower us we would be useless.
6. Just look at how God removes His people from HIS wrath. Look at Sodom and the story of Noah both instances here show Gods removal of the righteous before He brought destruction.

What if as a child you stole a piece of candy and your mom caught you and punished you for it and you apologized for it and never did it again. But let's say a month or two later your mom just out of nowhere says "remember that candy you stole?" and spanked you even worse than the first time she punished you.

That's why I can't see how all-millennium and any non-pre trib views make any sense. I do believe that scripture supports a "near trib" view. I believe we will see the birth pains and see some very interesting things take shape.

Look at how the Psalmist describes the Holy Spirit:

Psalm 139:7-12

7[bless and do not curse]Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8[bless and do not curse]If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9[bless and do not curse]If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10[bless and do not curse]Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11[bless and do not curse]If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12[bless and do not curse]Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.

Perhaps the great apostacy is heretical teachings and ungodliness that impedes the Holy Spirit! 1Tim. 4:2 & 2 Peter 2:1

Also, Rapture believers misread 1 Thess. 5:2-9, verses 2-8 are the context to verse 9 not vice versa.

Paul is warning us to not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord when the Lord returns like a thief in the night (Matthew 7:22-23, 24:44, 25:31-33) to watch, to be sober, wear the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of salvation because we are children of the day (or should be!!!!!) not children of the night.

 

[n2thelight]

Paul is warning us to not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord when the Lord returns like a thief in the night (Matthew 7:22-23, 24:44, 25:31-33) to watch, to be sober, wear the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of salvation because we are children of the day (or should be!!!!!) not children of the night.

Fear not those who can kill the body..........

 

[Bible2]

spiritandtruth2 said in post 218:

Where does the teaching of the Rapture come from?

Not the Bible that's for sure.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 226:

It is your responsibility to show even one place where Paul or any other inspired writer said that the church is Israel.

Note that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

[Bible2]

Bloodborn said in post 227:

Not heretical.

1. Gods wrath is not for us, it's for the wicked.

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Bloodborn said in post 227:

2. The book of Revelation says that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth.

Actually, it doesn't say that.

 

[Bible2]

Bloodborn said in post 227:

5. There's no reason for us to be here on the earth at this time because with no Holy Spirit to empower us we would be useless.

Regarding "There's no reason for us to be here on the earth at this time", the tribulation's reason with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the reason for righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the reason that, for example, the righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in a first century persecution (Revelation 2:10).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Bloodborn said in post 227:

6. Just look at how God removes His people from HIS wrath. Look at Sodom and the story of Noah both instances here show Gods removal of the righteous before He brought destruction.

Are you thinking of Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, note that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[spiritandtruth2]

Regarding "There's no reason for us to be here on the earth at this time", the tribulation's reason with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the reason for righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the reason that, for example, the righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in a first century persecution (Revelation 2:10).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).



Are you thinking of Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, note that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

What an absolute load of rubbish you write, were do you get your information from, statements like so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Talk about misleading utterances, you need to study the whole of the Bible from Genesis to Revelations to get the sense of what it is saying, my goodness.

In your own words can you name who everyone is mentioned in this Scripture.

(Genesis 3:15) 15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

For instance who is the woman?

 

[iamlamad]

Romans 15 is about the gentiles being called. It does not say, or even imply that these gentiles are Israel. It is not my responsibility to show what Paul was not saying. It is your responsibility to show even one place where Paul or any other inspired writer said that the church is Israel. This is something you most absolutely cannot do, because the scriptures simply do not say that, in Romans 15 or anywhere else.



You are mixing up wholly different passages of scripture. The last passage you tried to quote is not from Romans 15, but from Romans 9. But you quoted it incorrectly. What it actually says is, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved."

You are pretending that this is a prophecy that Israel will be as the sand of the sea, and imagining that this means the church. But that is not even what the prophecy was saying. It did not prophesy that the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea. It used that fact as the basis for what it actually prophesied, which was that even though there would be that many Israelites, only a remnant of Israel shall be saved.




This is exactly what I was talking about. Paul (but more correctly the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul did not say this. He only said things that you choose to interpret to mean this.

So even you admit that what was prophesied did not happen. Ase you saying that Gid made a mistake? Or are you saying that the prophesies of Gd will onky actually happen if man does what God wants him to do?

Because they were Jews, and that is how Jews worship.



This makes no sense whatsoever. Their prince went into captivity with them, and never returned. They never had a king after they returned. Israel and Judah were never re-united, as this prophecy clearly says. And the few israelites that did return never made anything even resembling the "very great army" of Ezekiel 37.

Yes. The fulfillment of "every vision" was "at hand." But God himself explains the delay on fulfillment of some prophecies by saying "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)

The prophecies whose fulfillment were about to take place (in human terms) were the prophecies of judgment on Israel, which took place around thirty of so years after these words were spoken. Ghe return you claim was the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 did not occur until about a hundred years after this prophecy.

You are wresting scripture.

Question, biblewriter: as I read Romans 11, I see myself, as a Gentile as "grafted in" to the Olive Tree of Israel. Then I read:

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Then I read:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


It seems in Paul's mind, and in the mind of the Spirit, either Jews or Gentiles loose our identity when we are IN CHRIST. So if we are "grafted in" to the Jewish Olive tree, we STILL loose that identity in Christ.

In other words, when one is "in Christ," what difference does our ancestry make at all? It is only a useless argument.

What is NOT a useless argument is what God is going to do with the Israel that is NOT "in Christ." For anyone to say or even think that God is done with the bloodline of Israel, the descendants of Jacob alive today, they must IGNORE many Old TEstament Scriptures and the book of Revelation. It is the 70th week of DANIEL (for the Jews), not the 70th week of Paul (for the Gentiles.)

LAMAD

 

[Gnarwhal]

Yes, it is.

 

[iamlamad]

Look at how the Psalmist describes the Holy Spirit:

Psalm 139:7-12

7[bless and do not curse]Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8[bless and do not curse]If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9[bless and do not curse]If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10[bless and do not curse]Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11[bless and do not curse]If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12[bless and do not curse]Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.

Perhaps the great apostacy is heretical teachings and ungodliness that impedes the Holy Spirit! 1Tim. 4:2 & 2 Peter 2:1

Also, Rapture believers misread 1 Thess. 5:2-9, verses 2-8 are the context to verse 9 not vice versa.

Paul is warning us to not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord when the Lord returns like a thief in the night (Matthew 7:22-23, 24:44, 25:31-33) to watch, to be sober, wear the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of salvation because we are children of the day (or should be!!!!!) not children of the night.

Are you so completely ignorant of the scriptures you do not know what happened on the day of Pentecost? Did you skip over:

John 15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


This was Jesus' promise, that when He ascends to heaven, He will send the Holy Spirit down. In Acts, Jesus commands them to wait for the Holy Spirit's coming.



Acts 1
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Here is the Holy Spirit STILL IN HEAVEN:


Rev 4
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


Here Jesus ascends and the Holy Spirit is immediately sent down:


Rev. 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


Here He has come to earth, to reside IN the believer and to come UPON them as the anointing.


Acts 2
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came in a different capacity than before. During the Old Covenant, the King and the Priest could be filled with the Holy Spirit - but NOT born again. But when HE came to earth, He came to give life to those who would receive Jesus, and recreate their human spirit (born again) and then for those who would receive HIM, He would baptize them or come UPON them for POWER.


So just as He CAME for the church to be born, He will LEAVE with the church, and life on earth will return to just the way it was BEFORE the day of Pentecost.


LAMAD

 

[Bloodborn]

Look at how the Psalmist describes the Holy Spirit:

Psalm 139:7-12

7[bless and do not curse]Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8[bless and do not curse]If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9[bless and do not curse]If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10[bless and do not curse]Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11[bless and do not curse]If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12[bless and do not curse]Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.

Perhaps the great apostacy is heretical teachings and ungodliness that impedes the Holy Spirit! 1Tim. 4:2 & 2 Peter 2:1

Also, Rapture believers misread 1 Thess. 5:2-9, verses 2-8 are the context to verse 9 not vice versa.

Paul is warning us to not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord when the Lord returns like a thief in the night (Matthew 7:22-23, 24:44, 25:31-33) to watch, to be sober, wear the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of salvation because we are children of the day (or should be!!!!!) not children of the night.

Random person I love your psalms reference. That's further proof that the Holy Sprit will not leave us. In Revelation it says that His presence will be removed from the earth

 

[spiritandtruth2]

Random person I love your psalms reference. That's further proof that the Holy Sprit will not leave us. In Revelation it says that His presence will be removed from the earth

Whose presence will be removed from the earth?

 

[shturt678s]

Whose presence will be removed from the earth?

Need to see the Psalms throught the eyes of the new covenant, ie, IIThess.2:4. Anyone that meets the Truth, and views that Biblical Truth as fallacious then the antichristian power and propaganda wiill unknowingly come in to reside in one's Sanctuary (IIThess.2:10b-12), (not "Temple") where one will think the antichrist is the Christ or the Holy Spirit.

Just old Jack's opinion