A conversation about unity.

[The Liturgist]

I've read the Gospels too, and Jesus did not teach that his mother was perfect.

I don’t think anyone would assert that - what we assert is that the Theotokos did not engage in voluntary sin and was a pure virgin, and is exemplary among human beings, and worthy of our veneration.

Ironically the text that some Protestants who subscribe to neo-antidicomarianism and to Nestorianism use to criticize the Theotokos is the same one read by Orthodox and Catholics as praise of the Blessed Virgin Mary. When our Lord said “blessed, rather, are those who hear the Word of God,” he was praising His mother for hearing Him, the incarnate Word; indeed she had heard Him before anyone else, as is demonstrated by the Water into Wine story in the Gospel of St. John; it took the Disciples a very long time to work out that our Lord was the Christ and the Son of the Living God, but the Mother of God was aware of the divinity of Christ our True God, who she had carried in her holy and immaculate womb, and thus told the stewards of the bridegroom to follow His instructions (and is telling us to do as He says as well, for what is written in the Gospels is mostly applicable to us as well as to the person being addressed).

Thus we venerate the Theotokos, because she points us to her Son.

 

[The Liturgist]

The letters to the 7 Churches confirm that Churches had failed seriously in different ways within 50 or so years.

You are aware that those seven churches were not the entirety of the Christian church at the time, but were rather seven specific churches that were having problems; what is noteworthy are the numerous churches which were not addresseed, for example, the Church in Antioch, the Church in Alexandria, the Church in Kerala, the Church in Edessa, the Church in Damascus, the Church in Nineveh, the Church in Jerusalem, the Church in Cyprus, the Church in Rome (actually, the churches of Jerusalem, Cyprus, Antioch, Alexandria and Rome were the autocephalous churches since the first century - all of the churches that were criticized in Revelation were at the time most likely party of the Patriarchate of Antioch, later under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, for they are mostly in Asia Minor).

The Church as a whole, by which I mean the entire collection of churches that are legitimately Christian, that people define in different ways according to ecclesiology (most Anglicans subscribe to either Branch Ecclesiology, Invisible Church Ecclesiology, or the Orthopraxis Ecclesiology of Martin Luther), cannot be in error, but individual local churches can (this is a problem for the Local Church Ecclesiology when taken to an extreme, favored by Baptists and historically by Congregationalists; in my work with the Congregationalists I never adhered to the idea that the Local Church was the Church for this seemed to be confusing a tree with a forest).


Indeed that is a rather good metaphor - the entire Church is like a forest, which we are promised will never be burnt down (the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it, in Matthew 16:18), but individual local churches like those in Revelations can fall into error, and thus become diseased or perish, or be cut down by schismatics and heretics, as happened to the churches in Boston which were converted to Unitarianism in the 18th century, and thus rejected Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So... I do think there's enough in Scripture to at least bring people to the table over Mary being our spiritual mother. Rev. 12 and Psalm 2 are pretty neat when read together, and yes, the Woman does seem to be Mary.

The reference is to the chosen Israel - it never was about Mary.

 

[Aseyesee]

The disunity, is of a seed from without ...

 

[Carl Emerson]

You are aware that those seven churches were not the entirety of the Christian church at the time, but were rather seven specific churches that were having problems; what is noteworthy are the numerous churches which were not addresseed, for example, the Church in Antioch, the Church in Alexandria, the Church in Kerala, the Church in Edessa, the Church in Damascus, the Church in Nineveh, the Church in Jerusalem, the Church in Cyprus, the Church in Rome (actually, the churches of Jerusalem, Cyprus, Antioch, Alexandria and Rome were the autocephalous churches since the first century - all of the churches that were criticized in Revelation were at the time most likely party of the Patriarchate of Antioch, later under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, for they are mostly in Asia Minor).

The Church as a whole, by which I mean the entire collection of churches that are legitimately Christian, that people define in different ways according to ecclesiology (most Anglicans subscribe to either Branch Ecclesiology, Invisible Church Ecclesiology, or the Orthopraxis Ecclesiology of Martin Luther), cannot be in error, but individual local churches can (this is a problem for the Local Church Ecclesiology when taken to an extreme, favored by Baptists and historically by Congregationalists; in my work with the Congregationalists I never adhered to the idea that the Local Church was the Church for this seemed to be confusing a tree with a forest).


Indeed that is a rather good metaphor - the entire Church is like a forest, which we are promised will never be burnt down (the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it, in Matthew 16:18), but individual local churches like those in Revelations can fall into error, and thus become diseased or perish, or be cut down by schismatics and heretics, as happened to the churches in Boston which were converted to Unitarianism in the 18th century, and thus rejected Christ.

Yes - I am aware of this brother. Thanks for your detail as always.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don’t think anyone would assert that - what we assert is that the Theotokos did not engage in voluntary sin and was a pure virgin, and is exemplary among human beings, and worthy of our veneration.

Ironically the text that some Protestants who subscribe to neo-antidicomarianism and to Nestorianism use to criticize the Theotokos is the same one read by Orthodox and Catholics as praise of the Blessed Virgin Mary. When our Lord said “blessed, rather, are those who hear the Word of God,” he was praising His mother for hearing Him, the incarnate Word; indeed she had heard Him before anyone else, as is demonstrated by the Water into Wine story in the Gospel of St. John; it took the Disciples a very long time to work out that our Lord was the Christ and the Son of the Living God, but the Mother of God was aware of the divinity of Christ our True God, who she had carried in her holy and immaculate womb, and thus told the stewards of the bridegroom to follow His instructions (and is telling us to do as He says as well, for what is written in the Gospels is mostly applicable to us as well as to the person being addressed).

Thus we venerate the Theotokos, because she points us to her Son.

Thank you for the information.

I do respect Mary - she was a great example of someone who put God first and was prepared to obey, no matter what the cost to her.
But I don't regard her as my spiritual mother as someone said a while back. In fact, I wouldn't even say she points me to Jesus; that's the Holy Spirit's role. Although no doubt she, and others, set a great example and inspire Christians in their faith - which is fine.

 

[ozso]

Below are teachings from Trent, still in force today.

Like I said, after you cut through all the ecumenical dialogue, you can interpret that the Catholic Church teaches that many protestants have a slim chance.

Penance Can 6.

Ifanyone denies that sacramental confession was instituted by divine law or is necessary to salvation;[78] or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human contrivance, let him be anathema.

Baptism Canon 5.

If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,[13] let him be anathema.

Eucharist Can. 9.

If anyone denies that each and all of Christ’s faithful of both sexes are bound, when they have reached the years of discretion, to communicate every year at least at Easter,[50] in accordance with the precept of holy mother Church, let him be anathema.

What about Vatican II and the Lumen Gentium of 1964? Isn't that what's in force today?

But even still, at least according to Tim Staples, there's only a slim chance, under very specific circumstances.

Which likely terrifies most Catholics into staying with the RCC.

 

[ozso]

I'm going to push back on this a bit. There are Protestants (such as in my own Anglican tradition) who value the development of doctrine through the centuries and who see the Holy Spirit as part of this process.

The writings of the first century Apostles hold a special authority, because they are the closest documents we have to the teachings of Jesus and his immediate followers. But we also value theological ideas that developed later, such as the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. I do acknowledge that it can be a challenge to discern which ideas are from God, which are from humans, and which are a mix.

So, just a note that there's a lot of variation among Protestants regarding the value of Christian Tradition.

The thing with the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity, is they have very strong and extensive scriptural backing. Which is why practically all of Christianity is in agreement with them.

 

[ozso]

I don’t think anyone would assert that - what we assert is that the Theotokos did not engage in voluntary sin and was a pure virgin, and is exemplary among human beings, and worthy of our veneration.

Ironically the text that some Protestants who subscribe to neo-antidicomarianism and to Nestorianism use to criticize the Theotokos is the same one read by Orthodox and Catholics as praise of the Blessed Virgin Mary. When our Lord said “blessed, rather, are those who hear the Word of God,” he was praising His mother for hearing Him, the incarnate Word; indeed she had heard Him before anyone else, as is demonstrated by the Water into Wine story in the Gospel of St. John; it took the Disciples a very long time to work out that our Lord was the Christ and the Son of the Living God, but the Mother of God was aware of the divinity of Christ our True God, who she had carried in her holy and immaculate womb, and thus told the stewards of the bridegroom to follow His instructions (and is telling us to do as He says as well, for what is written in the Gospels is mostly applicable to us as well as to the person being addressed).

Thus we venerate the Theotokos, because she points us to her Son.

The use of Luke 11:27-28 to debunk Mariology is held by a considerably larger audience than Protestants who subscribe to neo-antidicomarianism and to Nestorianism. Catholocism uses several passages as proof texts for Catholic doctrine, that say the opposite of how they're being applied. Like 2 Thessalonians 2:15, brought up earlier in this thread here. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Paul is clearly saying to stand firm to the traditions that had already been taught. Rather than stand firm to traditions that will be taught centuries later.

 

[ozso]

Yes and here is the rub. Mary gave birth to our Lord and Savior. Jesus is fully human and fully God but in order to be fully human Mary has to also be fully human. Mary needs to be revered for her obedience and submission to the Lord but in order for her to be human she was born with original sin. In order to be human her human nature is as human as the rest of us.

Most of Mariology is not in scripture and took almost 1900 years to develop.

Right up to 1954.

 

[Valletta]

Obviously a Protestant Christian can not partake in all of those scarcements. So if the ones Protestants can't partake in are the ones required to be under grace, then Protestants are damned according to Catholocism. It would be better for the RCC to just come right out and say that instead of being coy, dancing around the bush, and giving false hope.

Please quit making things up about the Catholic Church. Jesus alone holds the power of final judgment.

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
​

― Fulton J. Sheen

 

[concretecamper]

What about Vatican II and the Lumen Gentium of 1964? Isn't that what's in force today?

But even still, at least according to Tim Staples, there's only a slim chance, under very specific circumstances.

Vatican II doesn't undo anything from Trent or previous Councils.

I haven't heard what Tim Staples has said, but I am not surprised if he did say what you said he said.

 

[Valletta]

The reference is to the chosen Israel - it never was about Mary.

There are secondary allusions to Israel, but Israel is certainly not a woman. In Revelation real entities are spoken of. The one to rule with an iron rod is Jesus, the dragon is Satan, and the woman is Mary.

 

[Valletta]

The use of Luke 11:27-28 to debunk Mariology is held by a considerably larger audience than Protestants who subscribe to neo-antidicomarianism and to Nestorianism. Catholocism uses several passages as proof texts for Catholic doctrine, that say the opposite of how they're being applied. Like 2 Thessalonians 2:15, brought up earlier in this thread here. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Paul is clearly saying to stand firm to the traditions that had already been taught. Rather than stand firm to traditions that will be taught centuries later.

Sacred Tradition was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles in the deposit of the faith. That is much different than mere traditions which arose over the years.

 

[ozso]

Vatican II doesn't undo anything from Trent or previous Councils.

I haven't heard what Tim Staples has said, but I am not surprised if he did say what you said he said.

I've heard it said that Vatican II relaxed the conditions of salvation for Christians outside the RCC. I've posted what Tim Staples said before, and the Catholics who replied to it, seemed to think it was too ridged. Most of the time when I ask about what the RCC says in regard to the salvation of Protestants, they usually express that it's a lot braoder than what you're saying. However I think what you're saying is more accurate to what the RCC actually teaches.

If you're interested in what Tim Staples said I have it time stamped here.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There are secondary allusions to Israel, but Israel is certainly not a woman. In Revelation real entities are spoken of. The one to rule with an iron rod is Jesus, the dragon is Satan, and the woman is Mary.

Not so - you missed my important point - As Paul said - they are not all Israel who are Israel.

The spiritual Israel comprises of the sum total of all believers from both covenants, the true vine, with Abraham as their father.

This at the cross became the Body of Christ with the twelve at her head.

 

[Valletta]

Not so - you missed my important point - As Paul said - they are not all Israel who are Israel.

The spiritual Israel comprises of the sum total of all believers from both covenants, the true vine, with Abraham as their father.

This at the cross became the Body of Christ with the twelve at her head.

Mary can be seen as the mother of the covenant family of God.

"I. The Role of the Blessed Mother in the Economy of Salvation
55. The Sacred Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament, as well as ancient Tradition show the role of the Mother of the Saviour in the economy of salvation in an ever clearer light and draw attention to it. The books of the Old Testament describe the history of salvation, by which the coming of Christ into the world was slowly prepared. These earliest documents, as they are read in the Church and are understood in the light of a further and full revelation, bring the figure of the woman, Mother of the Redeemer, into a gradually clearer light. When it is looked at in this way, she is already prophetically foreshadowed in the promise of victory over the serpent which was given to our first parents after their fall into sin.(284) Likewise she is the Virgin who shall conceive and bear a son, whose name will be called Emmanuel.(285) She stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from Him. With her the exalted Daughter of Sion, and after a long expectation of the promise, the times are fulfilled and the new Economy established, when the Son of God took a human nature from her, that He might in the mysteries of His flesh free man from sin.
56. The Father of mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of His Son, so that just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world Him who is Life itself and who renews all things, and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role. It is no wonder therefore that the usage prevailed among the Fathers whereby they called the mother of God entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.(5*) Adorned from the first instant of her conception with the radiance of an entirely unique holiness, the Virgin of Nazareth is greeted, on God's command, by an angel messenger as "full of grace",(286) and to the heavenly messenger she replies: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word".(287) Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith."(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "the Mother of the living,"(8*) and still more often they say: "death through Eve, life through Mary."(9*)
57. This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to His death it is shown first of all when Mary, arising in haste to go to visit Elizabeth, is greeted by her as blessed because of her belief in the promise of salvation and the precursor leaped with joy in the womb of his mother.(288) This union is manifest also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish His mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it,(10*) when the Mother of God joyfully showed her firstborn Son to the shepherds and Magi. When she presented Him to the Lord in the temple, making the offering of the poor, she heard Simeon foretelling at the same time that her Son would be a sign of contradiction and that a sword would pierce the mother's soul, that out of many hearts thoughts might be revealed.(289) When the Child Jesus was lost and they had sought Him sorrowing, His parents found Him in the temple, taken up with the things that were His Father's business; and they did not understand the word of their Son. His Mother indeed kept these things to be pondered over in her heart.(290)
58. In the public life of Jesus, Mary makes significant appearances. This is so even at the very beginning, when at the marriage feast of Cana, moved with pity, she brought about by her intercession the beginning of miracles of Jesus the Messiah.(291) In the course of her Son's preaching she received the words whereby in extolling a kingdom beyond the calculations and bonds of flesh and blood, He declared blessed(292) those who heard and kept the word of God, as she was faithfully doing.(293) After this manner the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan,(294) grieving exceedingly with her only begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with His sacrifice, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth. Finally, she was given by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross as a mother to His disciple with these words: "Woman, behold thy son".(295) (11*)
59. But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren",(296) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin,(12*) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,(13*) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords(297) and the conqueror of sin and death.(l4*)"

Lumen gentium

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen gentium

www.vatican.va

 

[ozso]

Sacred Tradition was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles in the deposit of the faith. That is much different than mere traditions which arose over the years.

Isn't the teaching of the RCC that though succession any doctrine, practice or tradition added centuries later by the RCC is the same as if Jesus and His Apostles had taught it?

 

[concretecamper]

I've heard it said that Vatican II relaxed the conditions of salvation for Christians outside the RCC.

No, some Catholics do say it, but it ain't true. Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church from John Paul II repeats what I posted from Trent.

Many Catholics believe being ecumenical is to as you say broaden the conditions of salvation.

 

[ozso]

There are secondary allusions to Israel, but Israel is certainly not a woman. In Revelation real entities are spoken of. The one to rule with an iron rod is Jesus, the dragon is Satan, and the woman is Mary.

Israel is referred to as a woman in several Old Testament passages, particularly in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea. A lot of what John says in Revelation is found in the OT.