The question cessationists must answer.

[swordsman1]

Your definition of apostle is clearly too narrow.

It's the only definition in scripture.

 

[NBB]

Hmmm. Not sure about that. The disciples were filled on multiple occasions. Eg. Peter was filled at Pentecost, he was filled again when he stood before the Sanhedrin in Acts 4:8, and filled again in Acts 4:31. Was Peter baptized in the Spirit multiple times?

Yes we can be filled multiple times, the Holy spirit can be quenched a bit, by even by our small unrecognized sins or mistakes or if we don't pay enough attention, and we need to be filled again, 'they were constantly being filled with Holy spirit' meaning is not a one time event only, it needs to be renewed.

 

[swordsman1]

Please, explain what you mean by a figurative voice.

After the passage where Jesus spoke about his sheep hearing his voice. John says in John 10:6 "This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them."

Can you now tell us what you understand by 'his voice'?

 

[swordsman1]

Yes we can be filled multiple times, the Holy spirit can be quenched a bit, by even by our small unrecognized sins or mistakes and we need to be filled again, 'they were constantly being filled with Holy spirit' meaning is not a one time event only, it needs to be renewed.

I agree. But you said being baptized in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit is the same thing. So are we baptized in the Spirit multiple times too?

 

[NBB]

I agree. But you said being baptized in the Spirit and being filled in the Spirit is the same thing. So are we baptized in the Spirit multiple times too?

As far as i know,yes is the same thing. it needs to be renewed. At pentecost was special i guess because was the first time that happened. There were flames, and manifestations and such.

 

[swordsman1]

As far as i know,yes is the same thing. it needs to be renewed. At pentecost was special i guess because was the first time that happened. There were flames, and manifestations and such.

I think even most Pentecostals and charismatics would disagree with you that Christians can be baptized in the Spirit multiple times. But according to scripture being baptized in the Spirit is something that unites all believers into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) ie something that occurs at conversion.

 

[NBB]

I think even most Pentecostals and charismatics would disagree with you that Christians can be baptized in the Spirit multiple times. But according to scripture being baptized in the Spirit is something that unites the believer into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) ie something that occurs at conversion.

That scripture means something else than being filled, because about being baptized with the holy spirit or filled with him, i think is the same between the 2 , maybe i could be mistaken, but is very similar, you have in scripture several occasions were they were already believers but they were not filled with the Holy spirit or 'received the Holy spirit'. So you have in bible that they were already converted/believed but not had experienced being filled or baptized in the Holy spirit...

 

[NBB]

I think even most Pentecostals and charismatics would disagree with you that Christians can be baptized in the Spirit multiple times. But according to scripture being baptized in the Spirit is something that unites all believers into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) ie something that occurs at conversion.

This random article i found just a sec ago explains it well: i should add that this needs to be renewed.

Ligonier Ministries

 

[Deborah D]

After the passage where Jesus spoke about his sheep hearing his voice. John says in John 10:6 "This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them."

Can you now tell us what you understand by 'his voice'?

LOL, who is the "us?" Is this the Inquisition?

Are you saying that because Jesus used metaphors, comparing Himself to a shepherd and His followers to sheep, in those verses that nothing can be taken literally? I am His follower and I hear His voice. He has no problem leading me and communicating with me in a way that I understand exactly what He's saying.

Are you asking me if I hear His voice audibly?

 

[swordsman1]

That scripture means something else than being filled, because about being baptized with the holy spirit or filled with him, i think is the same between the 2 , maybe i could be mistaken, but is very similar, you have in scripture several occasions were they were already believers but they were not filled with the Holy spirit or 'received the Holy spirit'. So you have in bible that they were already converted/believed but not had experienced being filled or baptized in the Holy spirit...

It says in Roman 8:9 if you do not have the Spirit you are not a Christian.

"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

It says in 1 Cor 12:13 that all believers are baptized in the Spirit in order to be part of the body of Christ

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

So both occur at salvation.

 

[NBB]

It says in Roman 8:9 if you do not have the Spirit you are not a Christian.

"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

It says in 1 Cor 12:13 that all believers are baptized in the Spirit in order to be part of the body of Christ

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

So both occur at salvation.

But being filled do not happens at conversoin, by being filled, a lot of christians refer to it as baptized with the Holy spirit too, maybe that scripture means we were made alive with the spirit, but it is not being filled or 'baptized' with the Holy spirit.

 

[swordsman1]

This random article i found just a sec ago explains it well: i should add that this needs to be renewed.

Ligonier Ministries

I think this is a better peice by Wayne Grudem who is a highly respected continuist theologian. Well it's actually a chapter from his book "Systematic Theology" on the doctrines of the filling, baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

http://storage.cloversites.com/vall...and Filling with the Holy Spirit (Grudem).pdf

 

[swordsman1]

Are you asking me if I hear His voice audibly?

It would be a start.

 

[Deborah D]

It's the only definition in scripture.

I don't know of any definition of the word apostle in the scripture.

The following is from Smith's Bible Dictionary:

Apostle--(one sent forth), in the New Testament originally the official name of those twelve of the disciples whom Jesus chose to send forth first to preach the gospel and to be with him during the course of his ministry on earth. The word also appears to have been used in a non-official sense to designate a much wider circle of Christian messengers and teachers See (2 Corinthians 8:23; Philemon 2:25)....

​

 

[Deborah D]

It would be a start.

LOL again, Mr. Swordsman! I've been commenting on this for several pages--just not to your satisfaction! And my answers will never satisfy you because you don't believe that Jesus speaks to His followers today. BUT, He will keep speaking to me, and by His grace, I will keep hearing His voice....

 

[NBB]

I think this is a better peice by Wayne Grudem who is a highly respected continuist theologian. Well it's actually a chapter from his book "Systematic Theology" on the doctrines of the filling, baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

http://storage.cloversites.com/valleybrookcommunitychurch/documents/Baptism in and Filling with the Holy Spirit (Grudem).pdf

I forgot about that scripture:
“Before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit”

And:
“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”

See filled is the same as batpized in the Holy spirit in some scriptures.

And i have not read all that, because an opinion of one theologan saying this doesn't happen in today christianity is not going to change the fact that i myself was filled with the Holy spirit, i could feel his presence and i could discern him, and it is an something every christian should seek, and the devil is happy if you think you received all with the conversion only.

Being baptized by the Holy spirit after conversion, is very very biblical, or you can listen to some theologan making excuses, i will not read all that anyway.

Also he seems to not have been filled with the Holy spirit because he refers to growth and separated christians categories, and being filled with the Holy spirit is being filled within your inner self with the Holy spirit himself like a vessel, which results in him later working more in your life, santification, and having a closer relationship with him, obviously because he is closer now, and empowering more to you to speak about the gospel, all of this is biblical,

if you do not seek or believe in being filled you are shooting yourslef in the foot in your christian life. And this should be in the abc of being a christian.

But like the other topic saying about that nobody changes one mind on this forum i don't expect you to.

 

[swordsman1]

I don't know of any definition of the word apostle in the scripture.

The following is from Smith's Bible Dictionary:

Apostle--(one sent forth), in the New Testament originally the official name of those twelve of the disciples whom Jesus chose to send forth first to preach the gospel and to be with him during the course of his ministry on earth. The word also appears to have been used in a non-official sense to designate a much wider circle of Christian messengers and teachers See (2 Corinthians 8:23; Philemon 2:25)....

​

The Greek word apostolos, used to describe the apostles, also has another wider meaning that is used far less frequently (2 Corinthians 8:23; Philemon 2:25). But if you look up both of those verses in virtually any English translation you will see they do not translate it as apostle, it will be something like 'messenger'.

The vast majority of the usage of the Greek word apostolos and ALL occurrences of the English word "apostle" is referring to the dozen or so 1st century apostles.

 

[swordsman1]

LOL again, Mr. Swordsman! I've been commenting on this for several pages--just not to your satisfaction! And my answers will never satisfy you because you don't believe that Jesus speaks to His followers today. BUT, He will keep speaking to me, and by His grace, I will keep hearing His voice....

It doesn't look like I'm going to get a clear answer. Ho hum.

 

[Deborah D]

But being filled do not happens at conversoin, by being filled, a lot of christians refer to it as baptized with the Holy spirit too, maybe that scripture means we were made alive with the spirit, but it is not being filled or 'baptized' with the Holy spirit.

These things have been debated among Christians ever since I can remember. Don't let the Swordsman make you think that he understands all of this or that his understanding is the truth.

Some Christians believe that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit subsequent to a person being indwelled by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. The Bible also talks about being filled by (or with) the Spirit, which some think can happen many times in a believer's life.

Ephesians 5:18-21 says this:

And don’t get drunk with wine, which leads to reckless actions, but be filled by the Spirit: speaking to one anotherin psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music from your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of Christ.
​

IMO, anyone who says that they understand this completely is either prideful or not telling the truth.

 

[Deborah D]

The Greek word apostolos, used to describe the apostles, also has another wider meaning that is used far less frequently (2 Corinthians 8:23; Philemon 2:25). But if you look up both of those verses in virtually any English translation you will see they do not translate it as apostle, it will be something like 'messenger'.

The vast majority of the usage of the Greek word apostolos and ALL occurrences of the English word "apostle" is referring to the dozen or so 1st century apostles.

The majority isn't ALL!