The question cessationists must answer.

[Francis Drake]

They were until the bible was completed including their witness.

Unbiblical nonsense.
If tongues, prophecy, visions, words of knowledge signs and wonders are ceased, so have ALL ministry gifts.
You cannot pick and choose.

 

[Francis Drake]

Romans 12:6-8
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them:

1 Corinthians
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. ...Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

1 Corinthians 14:22
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers,

1 Corinthians 12
For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit,...

So, you accept these gifts are still operative, that was a quick turnaround!
Well done.

 

[swordsman1]

Unbiblical nonsense.
If tongues, prophecy, visions, words of knowledge signs and wonders are ceased, so have ALL ministry gifts.
You cannot pick and choose.

But it is not unbiblical. Scripture says tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge would cease, and history proves they did indeed cease. Well up until the pentecostal movement suddenly claimed they had been restored at the beginning of the 20th century - except their versions of those gifts don't match the descriptions of those gifts in scripture.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I am not mocking acts of God because I do not believe they are acts of God. Even though God can heal today I would say that 90% of healings today are bogus. They are either fakes, such as the common leg-lengthening trick, or not miracles at all. Supposed healings that take days or months to occur are not a miracles. Nor are slight improvements in a persons condition that can be accounted for by the natural healing process. The 'healings' that today's faith healers claim to perform are usually unverifiable illnesses such as back pain which are known to be improved by psychosomatic techniques and the power of suggestion. Others are outright frauds such as the leg lengthening parlor trick popular among the charismatic charlatans of today. It is purely an act. There are several Youtube videos that explain how it is performed. If they can supposedly grow limbs on demand then why are they not restoring the limbs of amputees?



I only have your word about you and your daughters healing and don't know enough details to determine whether was a genuine miracle ie. something that defied the laws of nature (eg an amputated hand being restored, or a visible tumor suddenly disappearing) - but I will presume it was. You said it involved prayer. Wonderful, your prayers were answered. I believe in those kinds of healings. But praying for healing is not the gift of healing. If people have to pray for healing it proves they do not have the gift of healing. If they had the gift of healing they would be able to instantly and completely heal people of serious disabilities simply by a command or a touch as the disciples did in the New Testament. They didn't have to pray for healing. They could heal people instantly because they had been given that supernatural ability.

But certainly God can and does perform miracles today in response to prayer. Would I pray for a friend with cancer to be miraculously healed? Sure I would. Would I expect the tumor to instantly disappear without trace? It has happened before so I would be hopeful, but as the millions of Christians with cancer would testify, God does not normally operate that way. Despite intense prayer, many of them are not healed and will often go on to die from their illness. Thousands of charismatics prayed for John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard church, but he was not miraculously healed from his cancer. He had to have radiotherapy. Nor was he healed from his heart disease, and had to have open heart surgery. Shortly after which he died at the premature age of 63. So much for faith healing in the charismatic church.



You are absolutely right. Jesus did perform miracles so that we can believe he is the son of God. As your quote from John 20 says, they are recorded in scripture for everyone to hear and be convinced. Therefore we don't need any more supposed miracles today in order to believe in Christ, especially dubious ones that don't even come close to matching Jesus's miracles. We just need to hear the scriptures. As it says, faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The gospel has been effectively preached in this way for the last 2000 years without 'signs & wonders'.



I can't say I've heard of Angus Buchan before. But I googled his name and his Wikipedia page says he preaches the prosperity gospel, makes claims of healing that are unsubstantiated, and has allegations of financial impropriety. So much like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and the other charismatic charlatans of today it seems.

The word of faith theology comes right out of Hell, from demonic spirits, as they deny the cardinal truths of Christianity for a metaphysical mumbo jumbo! Jesus warned us that in the last days, there will be signs and wonders done, but NOT of God, and would deceive many!

 

[NBB]

The word of faith theology comes right out of Hell, from demonic spirits, as they deny the cardinal truths of Christianity for a metaphysical mumbo jumbo! Jesus warned us that in the last days, there will be signs and wonders done, but NOT of God, and would deceive many!

God can do signs and wonders too, even on these days.

 

[YeshuaFan]

God can do signs and wonders too, even on these days.

He can, but he would not be doing that on behalf of so called pastors and teachers that deny the word of God!

 

[Righttruth]

In Acts, God distributed the gifts in the two outpourings. And then only through the hands of an apostle. Only an apostle could impart them. When the apostles died off, only the ministerial gifts remained. Tongues, prophecy. word of knowledge, signs and wonders all ceased.

No only tongues ceased as per the advise of Paul. The rest has continued.

 

[Francis Drake]

But it is not unbiblical. Scripture says tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge would cease,

Like most cessationists, you take things out of context.
1Cor13v8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.
In our humanity, we are limited in our understanding, and the gifts distributed around the body are there to fill those gaps and reveal the mind of Christ to the body. But when Christ returns and we reign with him, we will no longer have our flawed personality to deal with because we will have his fullness, ie. His Perfection, not our imperfection.


11When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child. 12For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Again, when Christ reigns here, there will be no darkness to obscure our understanding as we can all see Him with crystal clarity, just as Adam did in the Garden. Thus there will be no need for the gifts as we all will have personal access.

and history proves they did indeed cease.

Either you are a comedian, or a charlatan, as history proves no such thing.
The gifts have always been around, even if hidden.

Well up until the pentecostal movement suddenly claimed they had been restored at the beginning of the 20th century - except their versions of those gifts don't match the descriptions of those gifts in scripture.

Given that you only know what you see around you, you are arguing from ignorance.
You don't know what I have seen or heard from others, or spoken out via the Holy Spirit, so how dare you judge me or anyone else on their gifts.
Given that you choose to dwell amongst believers who damn the gifts, its hardly surprising that your experience will be negative.
If you believe and proclaim for nothing, then nothing you will get.

 

[Francis Drake]

Jesus warned us that in the last days, there will be signs and wonders done, but NOT of God, and would deceive many!

Scripture also warns us about Doctrines of demons.
That includes the demonic doctrines of those who damn the gifts of the Holy Spirit and miracles today.

 

[Francis Drake]

No only tongues ceased as per the advise of Paul. The rest has continued.

All the gifts have always been available. The fact that the gifts were hard to find was because those who ruled the churches throughout history (ie. ranting cessationist theologians) murdered every spirit led man they could find.

Like today, there is no way they would allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the flock because they knew their academic pride would be exposed and they would be unseated.

 

[Strong in Him]

But it is not unbiblical. Scripture says tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge would cease,

No. 1 Corinthians 13:8 says that prophecy and tongues will cease, or be stilled. Yes, they will - one day; doesn't say when.

and history proves they did indeed cease.

Was it that they actually stopped; that God withdrew them? Or was it that the church stopped recognising them? I'm guessing that if anyone had had a prophecy or spoken in tongues in medieval times, they may have been burned as a witch, clairvoyant or mentally deranged person.

Well up until the pentecostal movement suddenly claimed they had been restored at the beginning of the 20th century

Again, was it that God restored, or gave them back to us; or was it that people became more open to the Spirit and more willing to receive from him again?
There are a number of revivals recorded throughout history; what happened then?
Christians speak in tongues today - how do we know that they weren't always doing this but it was never realised?

 

[swordsman1]

Like most cessationists, you take things out of context.
1Cor13v8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.
In our humanity, we are limited in our understanding, and the gifts distributed around the body are there to fill those gaps and reveal the mind of Christ to the body. But when Christ returns and we reign with him, we will no longer have our flawed personality to deal with because we will have his fullness, ie. His Perfection, not our imperfection.

Where is Christ's return mentioned here? 'The perfect' or 'completion' (as many versions better translate teleios) is not the return of the Christ. The word teleios in scripture is never associated with the return of Christ or anything eschatological.

11When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child. 12For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Again, when Christ reigns here, there will be no darkness to obscure our understanding as we can all see Him with crystal clarity, just as Adam did in the Garden. Thus there will be no need for the gifts as we all will have personal access.

And, again, where is Christ's or his return mentioned here? It doesn't say we will see Him 'face to face'. 'Face to face' is the contrasting metaphor to 'seeing through as glass in obscurity'. When 'completion' comes the Corinthians would see God's revelation to man with far more clarity than they presently did via prophecy.

Either you are a comedian, or a charlatan, as history proves no such thing.
The gifts have always been around, even if hidden.

No, the witness of the church fathers immediately after the apostolic age was that tongues had ceased. And, outside of the claims of crackpots and heretics, they remained ceased throughout the church age. Sorry but I don't believe there were odd individuals holed up in caves secretly speaking in tongues.

Given that you only know what you see around you, you are arguing from ignorance.
You don't know what I have seen or heard from others, or spoken out via the Holy Spirit, so how dare you judge me or anyone else on their gifts.
Given that you choose to dwell amongst believers who damn the gifts, its hardly surprising that your experience will be negative.
If you believe and proclaim for nothing, then nothing you will get.

Scripture itself is the judge on whether today's claimed gifts match the descriptions of those in the bible.

 

[NBB]

No, the witness of the church fathers immediately after the apostolic age was that tongues had ceased. And, outside of the claims of crackpots and heretics, they remained ceased throughout the church age. Sorry but I don't believe there were odd individuals holed up in caves secretly speaking in tongues

You are calling crackports and heretics a lot of good christians who speak in tongues. Do you think these people all like to talk made up giberish like crazy to please themselves or others? NO, that is not reality.

 

[swordsman1]

No. 1 Corinthians 13:8 says that prophecy and tongues will cease, or be stilled. Yes, they will - one day; doesn't say when.

It does say when. It says they would cease "when completion comes".

Was it that they actually stopped; that God withdrew them? Or was it that the church stopped recognising them? I'm guessing that if anyone had had a prophecy or spoken in tongues in medieval times, they may have been burned as a witch, clairvoyant or mentally deranged person.

Do you have any evidence that people were persecuted for speaking in tongues or prophesying?

Again, was it that God restored, or gave them back to us; or was it that people became more open to the Spirit and more willing to receive from him again?
There are a number of revivals recorded throughout history; what happened then?

Scripture doesn't say they would cease and then be restored.

Christians speak in tongues today - how do we know that they weren't always doing this but it was never realised?

Do they really speak in tongues? If what people have suddenly discovered are the New Testament gifts then they would match the descriptions of those gifts in scripture. They don't. Today's tongues are unintelligible strings of syllables; in scripture they were foreign human languages. Today's prophecies are feelings that are verbalized and presumptuously declared to be 'a word from the Lord'; in scripture it was God speaking actual words to the prophet who could then infallibly say "Thus says the Lord....".

 

[SkyWriting]

So, you accept these gifts are still operative, that was a quick turnaround!
Well done.

Not all of them. They each have a time and place.
I've never heard that prophesy or tongues have converted anyone lately
and not ended up "drinking cool-aid" and bloating in the sun.

 

[swordsman1]

You are calling crackports and heretics a lot of good christians who speak in tongues. Do you think these people all like to talk made up giberish like crazy to please themselves or others? NO, that is not reality.

No, I was referring to those crackpots and heretics in history such as the Montanists and a Quaker who allegedly spoke in tongues. Today's charismatics in my opinion are simply mistaken in the belief they speak in New Testament tongues.

 

[Deborah D]

Acts 5:38-39 keeps coming to mind. The Pharisee Gamaliel was addressing the Sanhedrin and said this about the apostles.

And now, I tell you, stay away from these men and leave them alone. if this plan or this work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even be found fighting against God.
​

This is exactly what diehard cessationists are doing--fighting against God. History shows that ALL of the gifts have been in operation since they were given to the body of Christ for the edification of the church.

Thank God the naysayers can't keep us from using the spiritual gifts God has given us!!!

 

[NBB]

Do they really speak in tongues? If what people have suddenly discovered are the New Testament gifts then they would match the descriptions of those gifts in scripture. They don't. Today's tongues are unintelligible strings of syllables; in scripture they were foreign human languages. Today's prophecies are feelings that are verbalized and presumptuously declared to be 'a word from the Lord'; in scripture it was God speaking actual words to the prophet who could then infallibly say "Thus says the Lord....".

Why they would need to be interpreted if is a known language?

and this:

Intelligibility in Worship
14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit,especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

 

[SkyWriting]

Acts 5:38-39 keeps coming to mind. The Pharisee Gamaliel was addressing the Sanhedrin and said this about the apostles.

And now, I tell you, stay away from these men and leave them alone. if this plan or this work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even be found fighting against God.
​

This is exactly what diehard cessationists are doing--fighting against God. History shows that ALL of the gifts have been in operation since they were given to the body of Christ for the edification of the church.Thank God the naysayers can't keep us from using the spiritual gifts God has given us!!!

If you read, it says the gifts are to convert others and not for believers.
So that is your only worthwhile measure. Not the level of hostility you face.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are calling crackports and heretics a lot of good christians who speak in tongues. Do you think these people all like to talk made up giberish like crazy to please themselves or others? NO, that is not reality.

Do you have translators providing prophesy? Not that you've mentioned.