The question cessationists must answer.

[Dave L]

You are just presenting again arguments that have been blown

You must prove from scripture that you are right. Sentiments alone will not do that.

 

[Dave L]

What? That is so absurd.

You are the one claiming "laying on of hands" is necessary, and when I point out that scripture does not say it's necessary, your response is that I'm moving beyond scripture, when you are the one insisting on the necessity of something that isn't even scripture.

That's the kind of tortuous twisting of scripture that we get from atheists in other parts of these forums.

If you can provide one example from scripture where the gifts came in any other way than in the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands, you would have a valid point. But you move beyond what scripture says, adding your ideas to it, and promote a false doctrine, which BTW is very popular today, unfortunately.

 

[Dave L]

Utterly wrong again.
No its NOT God's word at all. Its just someone's cruddy opinion of what God's word means. In other words, your private interpretation!

If it were just God's word, you could sack the preachers and just have recorded readings of scripture. But people like you add your own false gloss of what scripture means in order to draw people away from the real truth.

If you can support your view by showing the gifts came in any other way than through the two outpourings, or through an apostle's hands, we would not be having this conversation.

 

[Deborah D]

Cessationists don't say that at all. God can and does perform miracles today if he so wishes (but not nearly as often as some people make out). What we deny is men being given the ability to perform miracles as they were in New Testament times. And the miracles these people claim to perform are invariably fake, such as the classic leg-lengthening parlor trick we so often see.

How can wanting to see miracles be an expression of faith? If anything it shows a lack of faith. Do you really need to see a tangible display like a David Copperfield magic show before you will believe? Jesus told the Jews who demanded yet another miracle before they would believe in him, "It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks a sign" (Matt 12:38-39). They had seen numerous miracles already yet they still refused to believe. No, true faith comes simply by hearing the word of God - "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." (Rom 10:17).

Even though I posted on this thread earlier, I've been hesitant to jump back in, but after reading your post, I could not be silent. You need to be VERY careful not to mock acts of God by calling them slight of hand!

God healed me of an ailment for which I took prescription meds for 25 years. He also healed my daughter of the same ailment when the Holy Spirit led me to pray for her healing. He gave me the faith to pray for her, and I KNEW that she would be healed. THIS IS SOMETHING GOD DID! My daughter recently had a physical exam that proved she was indeed healed! And these are not the only healings my family has experienced.

Jesus performed miracles so that people would believe in Him! John 20:30-31 says:

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name.
​

The miracles of Jesus written in the Bible are there so that WE may believe in Him--meaning those of us who did not witness His miracles firsthand. Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God!

Healing was so central to the ministry of Jesus that Peter said this about Him in Acts 10:38--

You know the events that took place throughout Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him.
​

Have you ever heard of Angus Buchan? He has a ministry in South Africa, and God called him to preach the gospel to the Muslims in Africa. He has said that the Muslims won't listen to the preaching of the gospel until they see a miracle. Once God heals someone in the crowd known by his fellow Muslims, many in the crowd run forward to receive Jesus as their Savior.

I'm so glad that Christians like Angus are not cessationist naysayers. How many African Muslims would still be lost if not for his dynamic ministry?

 

[YeshuaFan]

I'm not adding to Scripture.
The church is still here. God is alive and he is still working today.
Ephesians 4:11-12 says that the Spirit gives gifts so that the body of Christ may be built up. Are you saying that the church doesn't need to be built up today? When did the Holy Spirit decide to stop giving gifts? Obviously he didn't because many many Christians receive, and have received them.



Well like I said then, where does Scripture say that you may use a computer, drive a car, fly in a plane?
Where does Scripture say that only Scripture is allowed and God will not work in NY OTHER WAY?

Like I also said, which you haven't answered; in the OT they had Scripture, prophecy and miracles. They also had the Holy Spirit.
Why would God's people today have less than they had in the OT before Jesus even came? Jesus said that he would be with us always, that the Spirit would take from him and give to us and that we would do greater things than he did. Why do you say that this results in fewer blessings and demonstrations of God's presence and power?

Jesus gave to the Church the persons as the gifts themselves, Apostles and prophets as individuals in the church ceased after John died...

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus gave to the Church the persons as the gifts themselves, Apostles and prophets as individuals in the church ceased after John died...

Where does it say that?
There are people who have the gift of prophecy today.

 

[YeshuaFan]

And in your imagination, you decide that we don't need the same gifts today to do the same job? No wonder the church is so weak and ineffectual when people like you disembowel what the Lord taught.

Accomplish his work, whilst rejecting the tools he promised? All you end up producing is wood hay and stubble.
Given that the last days have not yet passed, the scripture quoted by Peter is still perfectly valid for today.
Acts2v17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

In denying the above, the gifts so described, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Jesus stated that ALL who were saved would have the Holy Spirit, and that he would give them power to live and to be witnesses for Him, correct?
And by your definition, unless one has sign ghifts, weak, so John the Baptist and many of the OT prophets were defective, as were most since time of Christ, such as Moody, Calvin, Wesley, Spurgeon etc?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Given that you constantly deny his voice, you've got self inflicted blindness and deafness. Jesus called it hardness of heart.
So its hardly surprising you never hear his voice, and never get any revelations.

In contrast, I first heard him speak to me as a boy over 50 years ago when he told me that he lived in my heart. That was a decade before I ever read a bible.
I have lived with that still small voice ever since.

Again, you are adding stuff to NT scripture that there is no mention of.
Paul said, 1Cor13v9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
ie. we don't have the whole story.

Prophets are just as fallible as bible teachers. So whether a teaching, or a prophecy, both need to be weighed.

Here's one of thousands that no scripture would have revealed to us.
This story is about my son giving a prophecy whilst only 3 years old.-

We were in the process of buying a house when the agent suddenly told us he was selling it to someone else.
Other than knowing we had lost the house, my son had no idea what was really going on. When we got home he disappeared into his room to play, then suddenly came back and said, "Jesus says we are going to have that house and we will have it before we go to Norway!"

My wife and I were shocked, but immediately sought the Lord, who confirmed it as the rhema word for our situation.
Our visit to Norway was over 3 months away, and provided a definite cut off date as our ferry trip was already booked.

We were powerless to change the situation as it was in the hands of other people, so we were left with claiming the word by faith alone, and checking regularly with the agent.
Two days before leaving, I called on the agent with a letter of instruction should it come on the market while we were away. He was clearly fed up with my pestering and literally told me to leave his office.

The final day came and we were loading the campervan ready for our due departure at 2pm. At 12pm, the phone rang, "The sale fell through and the house came back on the market this morning.

If you are still interested, can you come in and sign the papers."​

We ran immediately to the office and signed the papers. When he asked how I knew it would fall through, I told him straight out that God had told us.

Can you describe how we could get precision dated guidance like this from just reading the bible.

The Holy Spirit can at times lead and guide us, but will always be doing that in full agreement with the bible, as the scriptures are the only infallible source of divine revelation to us!

 

[Alithis]

The Holy Spirit also sends 'Notifications" that God is present and in control or "God requires your action on this." but you must depend on God to handle the details. The more you put yourself in God's hands, the better He will lead you

this above is only a part quote of what you said - noted .

it is very sad but this type of thinking being passed on for the last 40 years is not scriptural .for it suggest the person must sit saying they are committing themselves into the hands of god and that is where they say .sitting doing little (or nothing).. the correct way to word it would be ..- the more you Go out and DO what he has said to do the more he will help you do so for the holy Spirit is the helper . so we beleive JEsus and prove it by going and doing what he said to do .. we are then (as moving vessels ) able to be lead . and the lord did not say go out and ask me to heal the sick -he said YOU GO heal the sick - and he wil be with you (by the holy spirit ) and he is the HELPER .
as for the cessation mindset =they may call themselves Christian but they are in fact unbelievers who identify as Christian ..simply based on the fact they "do not believe " ..the god they therefore serve is an altogether ineffective and powerless god powerful only unto one single generation 2000 years ago..
i don't serve that God

 

[Alithis]

The Holy Spirit can at times lead and guide us, but will always be doing that in full agreement with the bible, as the scriptures are the only infallible source of divine revelation to us!

and if a man has zero new testament bible to refer to ..is the holy spirit not infallible ? seeing that he IS the spirit of truth . but yes of course we are to TEST the spirits . and if we have the scriptures we can do so . but if we do not have the book we do have the lord and can go to prayer and fasting to humble the flesh into full submission and humility -humility means we lay down all self preconception seeking never to be famed or known but seeking truth alone for truths sake - Jesus is truth.

the joy is that when a person who does have the scripture comes along -nothing in it will disagree with what the holy spirit has taught us . so beware those that say they speak "above " the scriptures .

 

[swordsman1]

You need to be VERY careful not to mock acts of God by calling them slight of hand!

I am not mocking acts of God because I do not believe they are acts of God. Even though God can heal today I would say that 90% of healings today are bogus. They are either fakes, such as the common leg-lengthening trick, or not miracles at all. Supposed healings that take days or months to occur are not a miracles. Nor are slight improvements in a persons condition that can be accounted for by the natural healing process. The 'healings' that today's faith healers claim to perform are usually unverifiable illnesses such as back pain which are known to be improved by psychosomatic techniques and the power of suggestion. Others are outright frauds such as the leg lengthening parlor trick popular among the charismatic charlatans of today. It is purely an act. There are several Youtube videos that explain how it is performed. If they can supposedly grow limbs on demand then why are they not restoring the limbs of amputees?

God healed me of an ailment for which I took prescription meds for 25 years. He also healed my daughter of the same ailment when the Holy Spirit led me to pray for her healing. He gave me the faith to pray for her, and I KNEW that she would be healed. THIS IS SOMETHING GOD DID! My daughter recently had a physical exam that proved she was indeed healed! And these are not the only healings my family has experienced.

I only have your word about you and your daughters healing and don't know enough details to determine whether was a genuine miracle ie. something that defied the laws of nature (eg an amputated hand being restored, or a visible tumor suddenly disappearing) - but I will presume it was. You said it involved prayer. Wonderful, your prayers were answered. I believe in those kinds of healings. But praying for healing is not the gift of healing. If people have to pray for healing it proves they do not have the gift of healing. If they had the gift of healing they would be able to instantly and completely heal people of serious disabilities simply by a command or a touch as the disciples did in the New Testament. They didn't have to pray for healing. They could heal people instantly because they had been given that supernatural ability.

But certainly God can and does perform miracles today in response to prayer. Would I pray for a friend with cancer to be miraculously healed? Sure I would. Would I expect the tumor to instantly disappear without trace? It has happened before so I would be hopeful, but as the millions of Christians with cancer would testify, God does not normally operate that way. Despite intense prayer, many of them are not healed and will often go on to die from their illness. Thousands of charismatics prayed for John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard church, but he was not miraculously healed from his cancer. He had to have radiotherapy. Nor was he healed from his heart disease, and had to have open heart surgery. Shortly after which he died at the premature age of 63. So much for faith healing in the charismatic church.

Jesus performed miracles so that people would believe in Him! John 20:30-31 says:

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name.
The miracles of Jesus written in the Bible are there so that WE may believe in Him--meaning those of us who did not witness His miracles firsthand. Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God!

You are absolutely right. Jesus did perform miracles so that we can believe he is the son of God. As your quote from John 20 says, they are recorded in scripture for everyone to hear and be convinced. Therefore we don't need any more supposed miracles today in order to believe in Christ, especially dubious ones that don't even come close to matching Jesus's miracles. We just need to hear the scriptures. As it says, faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The gospel has been effectively preached in this way for the last 2000 years without 'signs & wonders'.

Have you ever heard of Angus Buchan? He has a ministry in South Africa, and God called him to preach the gospel to the Muslims in Africa. He has said that the Muslims won't listen to the preaching of the gospel until they see a miracle. Once God heals someone in the crowd known by his fellow Muslims, many in the crowd run forward to receive Jesus as their Savior.

I'm so glad that Christians like Angus are not cessationist naysayers. How many African Muslims would still be lost if not for his dynamic ministry?

I can't say I've heard of Angus Buchan before. But I googled his name and his Wikipedia page says he preaches the prosperity gospel, makes claims of healing that are unsubstantiated, and has allegations of financial impropriety. So much like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and the other charismatic charlatans of today it seems.

 

[Alithis]

I am not mocking acts of God because I do not believe they are acts of God. Even though God can heal today I would say that 90% of healings today are bogus. They are either fakes, such as the common leg-lengthening trick, or not miracles at all. Supposed healings that take days or months to occur are not a miracles. Nor are slight improvements in a persons condition that can be accounted for by the natural healing process. The 'healings' that today's faith healers claim to perform are usually unverifiable illnesses such as back pain which are known to be improved by psychosomatic techniques and the power of suggestion. Others are outright frauds such as the leg lengthening parlor trick popular among the charismatic charlatans of today. It is purely an act. There are several Youtube videos that explain how it is performed. If they can supposedly grow limbs on demand then why are they not restoring the limbs of amputees?



I only have your word about you and your daughters healing and don't know enough details to determine whether was a genuine miracle ie. something that defied the laws of nature (eg an amputated hand being restored, or a visible tumor suddenly disappearing) - but I will presume it was. You said it involved prayer. Wonderful, your prayers were answered. I believe in those kinds of healings. But praying for healing is not the gift of healing. If people have to pray for healing it proves they do not have the gift of healing. If they had the gift of healing they would be able to instantly and completely heal people of serious disabilities simply by a command or a touch as the disciples did in the New Testament. They didn't have to pray for healing. They could heal people instantly because they had been given that supernatural ability.

But certainly God can and does perform miracles today in response to prayer. Would I pray for a friend with cancer to be miraculously healed? Sure I would. Would I expect the tumor to instantly disappear without trace? It has happened before so I would be hopeful, but as the millions of Christians with cancer would testify, God does not normally operate that way. Despite intense prayer, many of them are not healed and will often go on to die from their illness. Thousands of charismatics prayed for John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard church, but he was not miraculously healed from his cancer. He had to have radiotherapy. Nor was he healed from his heart disease, and had to have open heart surgery. Shortly after which he died at the premature age of 63. So much for faith healing in the charismatic church.



You are absolutely right. Jesus did perform miracles so that we can believe he is the son of God. As your quote from John 20 says, they are recorded in scripture for everyone to hear and be convinced. Therefore we don't need any more supposed miracles today in order to believe in Christ, especially dubious ones that don't even come close to matching Jesus's miracles. We just need to hear the scriptures. As it says, faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The gospel has been effectively preached in this way for the last 2000 years without 'signs & wonders'.



I can't say I've heard of Angus Buchan before. But I googled his name and his Wikipedia page says he preaches the prosperity gospel, makes claims of healing that are unsubstantiated, and has allegations of financial impropriety. So much like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and the other charismatic charlatans of today it seems.

in the name of Jesus -- i was prayed for in regard to one leg shorter . (of course its a back out of alignment when its just a slight difference ) my back realigned and the leg moved i was as astounded as any one . but that happened and my back pain has never returned 4 years now - please dont call me bogus . i know there are some bogus videos out there but there are bogus videos about EVERYTHING it does not make the real false .
i have had a devil cast out -this was more real then you ever want to know .
i have cast devils out in Jesus name -that was so very real also . a perfectly sane person suddenly fell down and the demon screamed as it came out and she was set free .

the gospel has not been effectively preached at all because disciples of Jesus do what Jesus did .. so the gospel you refer to has made disciples of church buildings full of unbelief .. not disciples of the lord Jesus

 

[SkyWriting]

this above is only a part quote of what you said - noted .

it is very sad but this type of thinking being passed on for the last 40 years is not scriptural .for it suggest the person must sit saying they are committing themselves into the hands of god and that is where they say .sitting doing little (or nothing).. the correct way to word it would be ..- the more you Go out and DO what he has said to do the more he will help you do so for the holy Spirit is the helper . so we beleive JEsus and prove it by going and doing what he said to do .. we are then (as moving vessels ) able to be lead . and the lord did not say go out and ask me to heal the sick -he said YOU GO heal the sick - and he wil be with you (by the holy spirit ) and he is the HELPER .
as for the cessation mindset =they may call themselves Christian but they are in fact unbelievers who identify as Christian ..simply based on the fact they "do not believe " ..the god they therefore serve is an altogether ineffective and powerless god powerful only unto one single generation 2000 years ago..
i don't serve that God

God provides you no effectiveness nor any power. As I was saying, God will lead you in the direction that he destined for you before He created the world. He even has heard your prayers before you think you authored them. Also before Creation.

You task is to understand that God already built your future for you and to see it's fruition. Of course you should be active and involved. But you remain powerless and of no personal influence on God's plans. - See: Have your Prayers Answered The Instant You Are Ready?

 

[SkyWriting]

in the name of Jesus -- i was prayed for in regard to one leg shorter . (of course its a back out of alignment when its just a slight difference ) my back realigned and the leg moved i was as astounded as any one . but that happened and my back pain has never returned 4 years now - please dont call me bogus . i know there are some bogus videos out there but there are bogus videos about EVERYTHING it does not make the real false .
i have had a devil cast out -this was more real then you ever want to know .
i have cast devils out in Jesus name -that was so very real also . a perfectly sane person suddenly fell down and the demon screamed as it came out and she was set free .

the gospel has not been effectively preached at all because disciples of Jesus do what Jesus did .. so the gospel you refer to has made disciples of church buildings full of unbelief .. not disciples of the lord Jesus

I don't consider you bogus and no one can make that judgment. God works for the self and not for others. No....not accurate. God works for others, but only your faith opens only your eyes.

 

[NBB]

God provides you no effectiveness nor any power. As I was saying, God will lead you in the direction that he destined for you before He created the world. He even has heard your prayers before you think you authored them. Also before Creation.

You task is to understand that God already built your future for you and to see it's fruition. Of course you should be active and involved. But you remain powerless and of no personal influence on God's plans. - See: Have your Prayers Answered The Instant You Are Ready?

How we are supposed to preach if God provides no effectiveness or power? with human words only?

 

[W2L]

How we are supposed to preach if God provides no effectiveness or power? with human words only?

I havent seen any miracles but i have experienced Gods love and strength.

Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

 

[Alithis]

God provides you no effectiveness nor any power. As I was saying, God will lead you in the direction that he destined for you before He created the world. He even has heard your prayers before you think you authored them. Also before Creation.

You task is to understand that God already built your future for you and to see it's fruition. Of course you should be active and involved. But you remain powerless and of no personal influence on God's plans. - See: Have your Prayers Answered The Instant You Are Ready?

Hows that working out for you ? since faith is not a thing but an action one takes based upon what one believes . the great commission is not sit and wait because you can not effect anything . its GO AND DO what the master tells us and IF he is our lord we will do what he says . GO....

 

[Alithis]

I don't consider you bogus and no one can make that judgment. God works for the self and not for others. No....not accurate. God works for others, but only your faith opens only your eyes.

actually true faith opens the eyes of many more to the truth of the Gospel..because true faith GOES OUT and DOES what the lord Jesus said to do .
heal the sick preach the gospel ,drive out devils cleanse the leper ,raise the dead ,baptise them in Jesus name and teach them (make more disciples) to do the same .

 

[W2L]

I have had many hard struggles. Depression, fear, anxiety, social anxiety, stress, and other things yet undiagnosed but could be PTSD or Something. I wrestled with that mess for a long time, its a wonder im still alive after all that. Am i healed? No i take meds. DO they heal me? NO, thats why Gods strength and love are so important to me. Never once however, did any "Word Of Faith" type theology ever help me. No it did the opposite actually. It was harmful to my mental health. People trying to say i have demons, and people saying im denying the Lord. That was not helpful at all. I found the Psalms, and the apostle Pauls words to be very educational and helpful in managing my spiritual battles. I have found peace, love and joy. Praise the Lord.

 

[Hillsage]

God provides you no effectiveness nor any power. As I was saying, God will lead you in the direction that he destined for you before He created the world. He even has heard your prayers before you think you authored them. Also before Creation.

You task is to understand that God already built your future for you and to see it's fruition. Of course you should be active and involved. But you remain powerless and of no personal influence on God's plans. - See: Have your Prayers Answered The Instant You Are Ready?

Hmmm, even AFTER reading your prayer URL, I think 'my present task' is to figure out how 'your opinion', as well as your understanding of one scripture for prayer, in Joh 3:21, lines up with another scripture.

1PE 3:7 Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered.

So, according to 'your POV' was I supposed to honor my wife before 'before He created the world'...as well as her? Or was I supposed to do it AFTER this scripture in 1Peter 3:7 was written?

Please don't answer this post. I'm going to have to admit, that you probably aren't going to say anything that could ever make me think that what you've shared above is right. Besides, my percentage on prayer just way out performs the testimony of your 'prayer URL' percentage, so I really don't see switching to 'your method', I hope you can understand why.